bnelon44

If you want to give a presentation or a handout to your parents, I have a few here: http://www.bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod

5yearscouter

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>True story that happened to one of my Scouts. Didn't realize that he was still a First Class Class until after his EBOR and council rejected it b/c he never earned Star or Life.

It happens a lot and it is a lot of grief for the Scout and his family. But what also happens a lot is the boy isn't even registered. Someone didn't file the paperwork and they don't catch the problem until he goes for his Eagle. Often the entire unit isn't rechartered and none of their boys are actually advancing because they are not registered. Happens too much.

With the new online advancement the unit finds out pretty quickly if their charter hasn't been posted (no Scouts show up) or if a Scout is missing (he doesn't show up.)

Avoiding the process causes grief. Don't avoid the process.

PS: Look at my profile, whomever Bob White was, he ain't me.

Beavah

If I understand it correctly, and I have been known to misunderstand at times, TAHAWK is saying the BSA handbooks contradict what YPT says in that YPT says disciplining should only be in the hands of the adults. What I am asking him is were in the Handbooks it says otherwise? If true, it isn't really a little thing that should be assumed one way or another.

By the way stopping some action for safety reasons isn't disciplining. At least not as I understand the BSA to define it. Assigning a patrol to latrene duty because they came late to troop assembly would be. In such an instance, I would expect the BSA approach would be for the SPL to consult with the SM and together decide on an appropriate punishment, which the SM allows the SPL to issue. However I don't remember reading in any current handbook this or any other similar process spelled out. Thus the question.

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Some are quite well done, some are not. Most will give the Scout the exposure necessary to satisfy the or lead to satisfying the requirements.

I don't use them for the badges I mentor either. I did had a Scout the small boat sailing book just as he was leaving on a vacation with his grampa who will teach him to sail. It is good enough so he will hae a little knowledge of the terms that will be used as he learns.

I am interested to hear of his experience when he returns. Learning to sail can be a life altering experience.

If he still has evidence that he completed the requirements prior to being 18 (e.g., a signed Eagle application, signed blue cards, etc.) he or someone should contact his local council office. There is a process that can be followed to get him his award that he earned as a youth.

Never heard of it before

>IF you believe that a PL cannot, under current policy, assign KP as punishment, I believe you have a very unique perspective, and I use "unique" deliberately and in its literal meaning., not in any sarcastic sense.

What I asked was for someone to show me in the current handbooks where it says a PL can disciplin a Scout. I am honestly courious. What you quoted didn't say that.

Yep, looks like the Troop Guide is a full member. As written.

>The Patrol Leader Handbook states that "When you see that a patrol member is overstepping the boundaries of the code of conduct spelled out in the Scout Oath and Law, it is your responsibility to step aside with that Scout and discuss with him why his behavior is not acceptable." That is a description of handling a discipline issue.

If you call that discipline, then you are correct. However I don't see that changing in the near future. But I also don't see that as what YPT is talking about either.

>Spelling out to the offender consequences for the unacceptable behavior would be discussing discipline INCLUDING "punishment" ("The SPL says your tent is an embarrassment. You and Jon are on KP until your tent passes inspection.").

No that is not what the above paragraph says the Scout can do. It does not grant the Scout permission to punish. It tells the Scout to discuss why a behavior is not acceptable.

>And as you seem to be a spokesman for the corporation

We are all members of the organization (I assume you are a member with a current membership card.) We are all BSA, it isn't an "us vs them" situation. Volunteers help to define policy in our organization.

The Troop Guide is an adviser to the new Scout PL until the new Scout PL gets on his feet. As such he attends PLC meetings as a non voting member and advises the new PL. The idea is eventually the Troop Guide will not have to attend PLC meetings because the PL knows his stuff.

Some terminology here: historically, the "Green Bar Patrol" is only called that when assembled to go on a special training "Green Bar Campout" led by the Scoutmaster at all other times it was called the Troop Leader Council (what we now call the Patrol Leader Council.) The TLC and PLC are essentially the committee responsible for troop program.

BTW: All patrol leaders, including the New Scout Patrol Leader are elected. They are not rotated or assigned.

The 1913 Handbook for Scout Masters is interesting to read for historical reasons, but it was entirely rewritten and many of the approaches and policies and procedures completely changed in the 1920s and by the time and with the printing of the 1936 Handbook for Scoutmasters the way Scouting was directed to happened in the BSA was completely different than what is described in the 1913 Handbook for Scoutmasters. For one thing, the Patrol Method was introduced into BSA Scouting and we have been using it ever since.

Anyway, the only policies we are required to follow are the ones that are in the current handbooks and policy books.

As for modern books having conflicting advice, ya gotta go back to the committees that made them if the conflicting advice is in the current book. For example, modern recommendations for desert survival is to have loose clothing and a hat covering you to protect from the sun and to help with regulating perspiration evaporation.

What official BSA survival book recommends a 11 year old boy carry a khukuris to summer camp?

We are changing our polices on discipline in the troop and moving it from the Scouts to the adults. The youth protection folks are working through all the manuals now. They have completed their review of the SM Handbook so if you still see guidance that a PL does discipline in the 2010 version of the SM Handbook, that would still be policy. I just took a glance at my 2010 copy of the SM Handbook and I didn't find any reference that would lead me to believe that a Scout is in charge of discipline. Can you cite the reference for me?

The PL Handbooks are currently under review, the 2011 versions should be available at your Scout Shop this month. I would be interested in what changes there.

Although discipline is now in the hands of adults, giving direction and solving disputes are still items that the Jr. Leaders are responsible for.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

There are a lot of ways of cheating and getting badges to stockpile because you don't like following the policy

We should remember that all of us stated under our own signature that we would obey BSA policies when we signed up to the program (and renew every year.) We didn't say we would only follow the BSA policies we agreed with.

We need to remember why the program is there, and it isn't to circumvent (aka cheat) a policy or teach Scouts how to cheat a policy.

We all need to remember that we teach the Scouts more by our actions than our words.

Oak Tree, by BSA policy no rank badge or merit badge can be given to a Scout until the advancement form is turned into your council office.

wjturner, If it was a successful experiment, we probably would still be doing it.

The major reason I can think of not to have a Scout on the board is so the Scout being reviewed can talk freely about his experience in the troop. And it is very possible he is having difficulties with the other Scouts.

Don't wait until once a quarter to hand in the advancement report. The Scouts deserve their rank and merit badges that they earned as soon as possible. It is the troop committee's responsiblity to make that happen.

Remember when you were a kid? Three months was an eternity!

The preferred way is to turn the form in right away and get the badge to the Scout at the next meeting. The card signifying the achievement can be given out at a court of honor in front of the parents.

This is a direct quote from the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, "Each time a Scout advances in rank, he should be recognized on two occasions. The first should occur as soon as possible after a Scout has been approved by a board of review and an Advancement Report has been filed with the council office -- preferably at the next unit meeting. This ceremony should be dignified but simple, involving not much more than presenting the Scout with his new badge of rank. The second occasion is a court of honor, a public ceremony to recognize Scouts for successful achievement and to describe the importance of the program."(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Some history

Hillcourt's 1936 Handbook for Scoutmasters says the BOR is made up of the troop committee.

In the 1947 Handbook for Scoutmasters it says the BOR consists of members of the troop committee and any adults they might ask to help them. (no Scouts)

In the 1959 Scoutmaster's Handbook it says the BOR shall consist of 3 adult male citizens, preferably from the troop committee.

And this was sent to me by a friend.

Scouts were allowed to be on BORs during what is considered by some as the dark days of scouting 72-89. The scouts were in "Troop Leader Councils" became PLCs in the 1990 HB

pg 75 1972 BSHB: "The Troop Leaders Council, which may have a committee member siting in as an adviser, will review you for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class. The Troop Committee will review you for Star, Life and Eagle."

pg 75 of the 1977 BSHB chaged the word from "may have" to "will have"

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So we are likely to bump into this with units that have or had Scouters who were Scouts in the 70-80s.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

We are told to expect the new guidebook around September. Could be later if delayed again.

It has been a long time since Scouts were allowed to sit on boards of review.

This doesn't look like routine mainenance to me. It looks like a good Eagle project.

The best advice I can give you is to have your son call the district advancment chair (or whomever approves projects) and run it pass them. Socializing any project proposal before writing it up is a best practice in the project management business.

The new Advancement Guidebook scheduled to be released in 3rd Qtr will make it clear that if you don't have enough committee members for a non-Eagle BOR, it is permissible to use knowledgeable parents or other adults (registered or not) who understand Boy Scoutings aims. (other than ASM, SM, or Scout's parent or guardian)(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Scouts don't sit on BORs One of the purposes of the BOR is to ask the Scout how he is enjoying the program, if he is having problems with other Scouts he may be hesitant to bring it up if a Scout is on the BOR.

See the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, here:

http://bsatroop14.com/advancement/advancementpolicies.pdf

A presentation on the BOR I put together is here:

http://www.bsatroop14.com/advancement/Board_of_Review_Training.ppt

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Catapults

When I was a Scout the Quartermaster was the 3rd highest rank in the troop or patrol. But then, ours had real responsibility. I don't remember us worrying much about PORs back then.

""For this Scouting does not resort to military drill, but has developed its own technique, easily learned and considered by the boys as a game rather than a drill."

See Silent Scout Signals:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/drill.htm

"

The silent Scout signals were in a recent previous handbook, now removed I think.

I would agree with Hillcourt's statement to some extent as long as it is remembered that it is not an adult giving the signals.

If you want them to look better at flag ceremonies, ask them if they want to look better, then suggest to the PLC they incorporate flag ceremonies into the troop meeting. Practice makes for better performance.

We had a couple of 1st year Scouts help out at a District event flag ceremony this past month. They did fine because they were use to doing flag ceremonies every week. But they weren't a drill team. And I wouldn't expect to see that with Scouts. JROTC, yes, Scouts no.

When I see a troop marching in perfect order and in perfect uniform, I am almost always correct that it is an adult run troop.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Because kids want to play at paramilitary games doesn't mean the BSA has to make it a part of our program. Anyway, you wanted to know the reason for the policy, I told it to you.

As I said, this isn't a matter of not knowing why the policy is there, it is a matter of not agreeing and wanting to argue about it.