Twocubdad

Slowly shaking my head.... It's not like a kid is going to take a pack of Camels out of the smokes pocket on his uniform sleeve, shake up a couple of coffin nails and light up with the guy...

NJ, I absolutely get your point and understand the potential firestorm which could arise from kids presenting a gift of tobacco to an elder, but how sad is that. It would be like your inviting my family to Seder and me making a fuss of my children to sipping the wine.

OBTW, in my tribe/clan the elders prefer gifts of single-malt whisky.

SP -- this guy insubordinate and has a stated goal of undermining the program. Sometimes you do need to take the bull by the horns.

You becoming SM is a whole different situation.

Based on the info you've provided, short of a Road to Damascus experience, this guy is always going to be a cancer on the troop. Take qwazse's advice and say something to him now about his lack of support for the current SM. Q is right, his behavior is appalling. The only job of an ASM is to support the SM. If he can't support the SM he needs to get out. If it does nothing else, it will serve as a shot across the bow for you taking over the troop.

As SM, one of your first tasks will be to set this guy straight. Start by explaining your philosophy and how you intend to operate the troop. Specifically point out how the ideas he has espoused in the past are in conflict with your direction. Don't let him weasel away from it. Tell him square up that if he cannot support the SM, he has no function as an ASM.

Frankly, I doubt it works. My hunch, based on your description, is he's just a whiner and makes himself seem important by putting down someone else. Sooner or later he's going to start sawing on your branch, too. The only reason I wouldn't let him go immediately is I've seen guys like this turn around when they see the program work well. These tend to be the hyper-helicopter types who only see that their Sweet Li'l Thang is bored and want someone to entertain him. I've had a couple dads I almost got sideways with but over time, they understood what we were trying to accomplish. They both became tremendous supporters of the program and great volunteers.

Rare consensus within the group. My advice to you: always sit near a door.

Well, the Scouts in our troop do design their own projects. They frequently complete drafting merit badge in the process. In 10 years we've had only one project which required engineered drawings and that only because the local YMCA was the beneficiary. As a commercial property, the plans and permits required are much more stringent than would have been otherwise required.

Our guys have created their own plans and drawings for picnic tables, a number of different styles of park benches, a reading area for a school library, an outdoor fire pit and gathering area for a church group, information kiosks, park signage -- all of which the Scouts were able to complete on their own without the services of an engineer or architect. The plans don't have to be fancy or pretty, just accurate enough that they are useful in completing the project.

But more to the point, this is where a good EP mentor is important. They can guide the Scouts through what is and isn't appropriate for an EP We don't expect Scouts (or 95% of adults) to know when engineered plans, licensure and insurance requirements or building codes. Two of our EP mentors do guide the Scouts to avoid those pitfalls. Frankly we try to steer our Scouts clear of projects which involve these elements. Satisfying these requirements takes the projects out of the Scouts hands. There are far too many good projects out there which don't require this.

Eagle Scout Requirement 5

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (Emphasis added)

I completely disagree with your last post, Stosh. The differential characteristic between leadership and management is vision. Executing someone else's plans is management. Having a vision for bettering your patrol, troop or community and motivating others to work toward that vision is leadership. And as we see in the black-letter language of the requirement, planning and development is part of it. Yes, every Scout in our troop who has a construction-oriented project develops his own plans, drawings, materials list, budget and schedule.

Cleaning up around the church and adding some bushes according to someone else's plan in what is routine maintenance. It is specifically excluded as an Eagle project. I think you are wrong to assume that all beneficiaries are on top of the process and will develop and approve the details with the Scout. My experience is exactly the opposite -- most beneficiaries assume the Scouts' leaders will do all that. Most, in fact, are surprised to learn they are responsible for approving and supervising the work. I suspect if we really pushed the point that the work is to be done through their organization, that all fundraising should go through their tax ID number, and they are responsible for any liability, many would refuse to participate. A friend of mine does a lot of the facilities maintenance for a charter school his wife runs. He has had several Scouts do EPs at the school. It was extremely frustrating for him to the point he was not going to work with further EP. Why? Because his expectation was for the Scouts to show up knowing exactly needed to be done and the Scout's leaders would run things.

I also highly doubt your scenario of a Scout managing a bunch of professional sub-contractors and calling it leadership. The subs are not going to let the Scout lead. They're going to tell him what they're going to do. That's why you hire them in the first place. I'm a general contractor and work with these guys every day. The greatest challenge in monitoring Eagle projects is keeping the dads from jumping in and taking over. I can only imagine dealing with a bunch of contractors who have no clue how Scouting is supposed to work. Besides, why hire-out these different trades? The logical conclusion of this would be one phone call to Lowe's and have them drop off a pre-fab storage shed. What's the difference? He can demonstrate leadership by telling the driver where to put the building.

Back to your earlier posts (I've been unable to respond for a couple days) No doubt the grave marker project is a cool one very near and dear to me. (My sons think everyone stops in old country cemeteries and wanders around -- they grew up doing it.) But if the Scout's "brief description" was as you laid out, he would have a hard time getting my approval or that of our local committee. But with a little coaching and advice on how to play the game, it would certainly be a great project.

What would have happened if he did the survey and found no markers in need of repair/replacement? Would that have been considered a success? Has the Scout provided a benefit to the community if all he did was to walk around the cemetery and say, "Looks good." Eagle projects aren't just smoke grinders for demonstrating leadership with no purpose. Co-equal to demonstrating leadership is the requirement to provide a benefit to the community. That sort of problem could be avoided by working with a knowledgeable beneficiary, such as the local VFW or American Legion who can steer the Scout to cemeteries in need of restoration. They can also serve as the official beneficiary "which is required by BSA, even though they don't own the cemeteries or individual graves.

 

You can't find someone who isn't a martyr to do just the logging?

I could, but when I do I will give them a job which actually contributes to the program.

I'd say about 10% of the projects I've seen have been blatantly completed by parents, or at least significant portions. Most parents do a better job of covering it up. Besides, I bet if you wife wrote a letter to that kid's BOR they would have passed it anyway. The kid would have only to come up with some cock-and-bull story about delegating "delivery" of the shelves to his mother.

BSA policies try to chase the last fractional percent of everything. They want air-tight policies which require no discretion to administer. Nothing works that way. Consequently we get advancement policies mandating that a Scout can use anyone to help on their EP including their parents and that leadership can be demonstrated adequately with only one other person. I'm sure somewhere in Alaska there is a Scout who lives alone with a single parent and is an hour by bush plane from the nearest neighbor. Okay, I'm cool with him parent doing the project together. (Heck, he's probably working with the Discovery Channel on his own reality show.)

But in the real world I end up with a dad screaming at me that "he and his" son decided "they" wanted to do his EP as their last father-son project before he went to college. Their final plans were between and them and the beneficiary and they wanted no involvement from the troop. I wished them luck in finding a Scoutmaster who would sign off on that. I wouldn't. Fortunately, and at least for now, the block above the Unit Leader's signature on the EP proposal states, "I will see that the project is monitored, and that adults or others present will not overshadow him."

Of course we know that in the BSA world, signatures are just fluff and carry no real weight. No doubt the national advancement team will figure this out and change this to "I am aware the Scout is submitting a Eagle Project proposal. We chatted about the weather and his favorite sports teams." You know, like they did on the blue cards.

So, Matthew, let us start where we agree. How many councils are flush with cash, feel like their traditional programs are fully funded, their camps well maintained and are looking for a place to park all that extra cash? No, I don't either. What do you bet these pilot programs come with grant money to run them or at least plenty of support from Texas?

Venturing is part of the traditional Scouting program. It's purpose is to deliver a traditional Scouting program to older youth. Exploring began that way, but was somewhat supplanted by Venturing. When our membership policies became a point of contention for the numerous government-based Exploring CO, it was moved to the Learning for Life program to avoid losing all those unit. Absent that history, most Explorer post could easily become Venture crew specializing in a particular career field. And yes, if Exploring were proposed today as a separate LFL program, I would not favor that either.

Our council has zero Varsity teams and one Sea Scout ship. To my knowledge, there are no council resources spent in support of the ship, other than the same resources which go into chartering any other unit. But look at the LFL program, it had it's own professional, most programs were staffed by paid paraprofessionals and the council picked up the registration fee for most of it's members. I'm glad to see it go. My concern is that, not volunteer-based programming, tends to be the model for these national "initiatives".

SR540B -- the Scouts you are seeing are doing exactly what is asked of them by the EP documents. "Plywood and shingles, maybe" is the standard national has set for effort and planning. Pitiful.

Scouter99 -- I tried to make your point a day or two ago but it wouldn't stick to the server. (Great advertisement for STEM, huh?) I'm fine with the new rash of merit badges. Bring them on. I'd be fine if there were 500 MBs. Last time I checked only about 10% are required, and the rest electives. If a Scout wants all nine of his elective badges to be STEM related, I'm okay there too.

Matthew -- your point about the "farming initiative" from years past make my point. Everything you mentioned was merit badge based. No separate "Farm Scout" program to maintain. I imagine troops in Iowa took greater advantage of the farming MBs than units in Detroit, Cleveland or Pittsburgh. And let's not forget Farm Layout, Citrus Fruit Culture, Corn Farming, and Hog Production have all gone away. Roll with the times, as they say.

I question the wisdom of councils (I don't really care what National does) starting to allocate money and staff to these programs to the exclusion of traditional programs. In our area, most councils are backing off from the old Learning For Life programs already. They never caught on and were largely dependent on schools for implementation. I don't know why we're going back there. My only guess is someone seems to think there is money in it. I can see National getting money from big corporate sponsors like AT&T, but I don't really see local councils being able to attract the dollars the program will require. Too much competition already.

BSA should stick to the knitting.

The pendulum bangs from one extreme to the other. Before the 2011 changes, it wasn't uncommon for out council to TURN DOWN 30-page proposals because the Scout didn't jump through some ridiculous hoop or the other. We've now abandoned any sort of reasonable, rational planning. "I might want to build a few picnic tables somewhere. Maybe someone will wander along and use them. I'll probably need some boards." is an acceptable EP proposal according to the Guide to High-Speed/Low-Drag Advancement. It already includes a Scout's Bill of Rights and I'm sure a toll-free number is in the works. 1-800-RAT-URSM, no doubt.

My advice, ignore it. Ask for details. Use your brain. "Picnic tables are nice. What do you really think you'll need do build them?" For the usual construction-oriented project I ask for four things -- plans and drawings, a materials list, a budget and a schedule. With those four items, completing the proposal and the final plan is a easy as falling off a log. And I have a long line of Eagles will -- and do -- tell the younger Scouts in no uncertain terms how stupid it would be not to follow that advice.

My purpose is to give the Scouts AN OPPORTUNITY for success. This doesn't guarantee success, and we don't do the work for them. If they follow through with the planning as I suggest, they will have a high likelihood of success. Fortunately, our council Eagle project committee seems to agree. Once or twice the district advancement chairman has mentioned that we can't require the details, but in the three-plus years under the new rules they have yet to turn down a project.

As spelled out in policy and workbook instructions, not only is the "somewhere, somehow" proposal acceptable, the final plan is optional and the Scout should report anyone who asks for it.. So a Scout decides to follow the policy to the letter and builds his project with minimal planning and no supervision. Eight-penny nails sounds expensive enough, and because he wants his picnic tables to look nice, he goes with the shiney finish nails. When the tables collapse under their own weight, we read further in the policy that a SUCCESSFUL project isn't required nor ultimately is the approval of the beneficiary. VIOLA! A new Eagle Scout who has provided no service to the community and likely demonstrated little leadership in conducting his project.

I have higher expectations of both our program and the Scouts in it.

Is the thought here that out-of-state groups traveling to or even through PA require these checks? How is that enforceable or eve possible? What happened to the Full Faith and Credit clause? Do I have to apply for a PA drivers license too?

Overlooked in this whole milieu is the increase in drug consumption caused by the 21 year old drinking age. It was a lot easier to hide a baggie of weed or a gram of cocaine from your folks than it was to slip a cooler of beer past mom and dad.

Yahtzee! Drinking is for the older, college-aged kids into micro-brewed IPAs and porters.

We all know what has driven this, right?

My 7th grade English teacher turned me on to the Foxfire books. They are a compilation of articles written by a high school journalism class documenting mountain living, skills, traditions and folkways. Volumes 1-9 are on the shelf behind me now. As a result, in high school I started building a cabin. It took over 10 years to build (college, jobs and a new wife slowed progress), but now my sons and I all enjoy going there, walking in the woods, following the creek, sitting by the fire.

I still want to try building a still, though.

debbi -- RichardB is one of the health and safety guys at national (Richard, you may want to fill in some of your bona fides). You should print his response and give copies to everyone in the troop.

Not that they'll listen, but.....

blw2 -- see my post, #9 above, on how we cover merit badge topics during troop instruction time.

From time-to-time the troop does sponsor merit badge classes where appropriate. We've got a class for Personal Management cranking up shortly. But it won't be held during troop meetings, rather Saturday mornings or Sunday afternoons. Extra effort and initiative is required -- you don't just sit through a regular meeting and get the badge. Three or four parents with finance backgrounds -- a CPA, a banker and a financial planner that I know of -- will be leading the class. That gives us a student-to-instructor ratio of less than 2:1 easily allowing for individual completion of requirements. And I'll tell you these guys will teach a whole lot more than what is required by the merit badge. I get parents who ask to sit in. Last time we did this one of the Scout's fathers spotted him real money to invest. The kid made a bunch of money. I tried to get stock tips from him myself.

BSA is not a "provider" (or whatever the terminology is) so HIPPA is not an issue. Folks who get wrapped around the axle with privacy concerns are a bit of a head-scratcher for me. IMO, one of the purposes of the health form is to let the troop leadership broadly know what issues they may be dealing with. I believe the health histories are more for the benefit of the volunteers who are in a position to head off emergencies than the medical professionals who, as others have noted, aren't going to rely on a form. When a scout is turning blue it's too late to be finding out he's allergic to peanuts or wasp stings. I want critical info fairly widely known by my leadership. The mom who handles our health forms (a RN) and I (SM) aren't going to be present for every emergency.

Yeah, after two years of banging your head against the wall, I'd resign too.

Or how about this: Create a spreadsheet listing everyone in the troop sorted by the date their medical expires. On the 15th of every month, send emails to everyone with an expired medical explaining they are no longer eligible to attend troop activities until they submit an up-to-date form. Quote Section V of the Guide to Safe Scouting, "All Scouting Events. All participants in all Scouting activities, such as local

tours and weekend camping trips of fewer than 72 hours, need to complete and return to their unit leader parts A and B of the Annual Health and Medical Record. These forms need to be updated at least annually. Part A is an informed consent, release agreement, and authorization that needs to be signed by every participant (or a parent and/or legal guardian for all youth under 18). Part B is general information and a health history."

The heck with the committee. The heck with the ASMs. Just do your job and let the chips fall where they will. How the troop defines "activity" isn't your problem either. If the ASMs continue to take kids camping without the forms, and if the committee allows that to happen in spite of your monthly updates, you've done your job. I bet the forms come flooding in.

Then again, washing your hands of the whole thing works too.

From a practical standpoint, it doesn't matter. We collect A/B medical form at crossover and whenever a new Scout joins. By summer camp they need to have part (physician) submitted.

It isn't as if the Scouts bring a new medical form for each activity/meeting/whatever. With the forms in the notebook, we're good regardless how you read the policy.

Do we have a PR problem? Sure. Would better visibility of the good works Scouts do help? Absolutely! Will making this part of JTE help? Nope.

Anytime Scouts are in the public eye, they should be in uniform. But from a practical standpoint, service projects are often messy work. Not many Scouts have a separate uniform for painting.

But how about making a point of having the Scouts wear their uniforms for a photo op, even if they change afterward. We provide out Scouts "Eagle Project Underway" signs for their projects. We also provide he Scouts with small, permanent plaques to attach to their projects. It's pretty cool to be sitting at a picnic table and discover it was built by the troop years ago. Uniform or no, we try to submit photos of our Scout doing service projects to the local paper. We made large "Scouting For Food This Saturday" signs for the annual food drive. Mostly it reminds folks to put their bags out Saturday morning, but also serves as a visible reminder of the project.

Checking a box on JTE and logging hours on the Good Turn for America website (which I've never been able to access) only allows the council and national to tout a number of hours on their FOS flyers and annual reports. Wup-dee-doo.

It's been years since I looked at the leader award requirements (no one from our troop wants to waste time at Roundtable, so we don't bother with the awards) so I hadn't realized they linked individual awards to JTE. That's just confirmation to me that JTE has ZERO to do with quality programs and everything to do with the professionals making their numbers. Why don't they link youth advancement to JTE, too?

I guessed they slept through the goal setting session in Wood Badge. I thought the "A" in SMART goals stood for attainable -- making sure that goals are within your power to achieve.

Run your program. JTE is just extra paperwork.

If you've made up your mind to go, best of luck to you. That's a perfectly reasonable decision. But if you're still pondering, my first stop would be to meet with the chartered organization and ask 1) if they still want a troop and 2) what support they are willing to provide. It's their 25-year history to preserve or not.