Twocubdad

I think the orange shirts are fine and have never heard any complaints from the Tigers. In fact, my younger son used to get mad at me for wearing my full uniform (as Den Leader) to Tiger Den meetings. He wanted me to wear an orange shirt like he did.

I do, however, wish they would improve the quality. By year's end, half the boys have gaping holes in their arm pits or the collars half off from where the seams come apart.

We give our Webelos a good bit of latitude as to when to go to the tan uniform. We tell the parents to stay with the blues as long as they fit. All the boys make the change by the end of the year, but most by Christmas. It's therefore usually a moot point, but we ask that all the W2s have tan uniforms as part of the transistion to Boy Scouts.

One thing I've found that the boys don't like is giving up all their Cub advancements when they go to the tan uniforms. I know it isn't official, but many of our boys wear their Cub badges with the tan uniform using the diamond-shaped patch holders. Seems to be a fair compromise.

Does anyone know the official date of the Tiger Cubs' conversion to blue uniforms? I assume that this year they are still in the orange t-shirts, but want to double check before I start sending folks to the Scout shop.

We've tried that approach but with mixed results. Last year we polled existing Scout families for the names of little brothers and neighbors who were planning to join. Of the 20 or so boys who ultimately joined, about half responded to the survey and we got one Wolf Den leader out of the bunch.

With the Tigers, however, if we had all the leaders set prior to Roundup, we would have missed a very good den leader who just appeared at Roundup night.

This year, we tried the same approach but with no response. I don't know if there just aren't any little brothers in the Pack this year, or if the parents -- aware that we are trolling for leaders -- are just sandbagging us. So this year we don't have a choice but to wait and see what the new crop of boys and parents brings.

But the main point of Bob's post is still well made. New dens need to have every opportunity to hit the ground running. We try to have a good, up-to-date Den Leader's kit available. It includes plans for den meetings, local resources and most of the books a new den leader needs. We also take special care to give the den leaders extra help the first few den meetings, even sending an experienced leader to help run the first den meeting or two, if necessary.

Of course, we attach a list of upcoming training opportunities to the adult leaders applications and try to get them to attend at their earliest convenience.

Bobwhite;

Doesnt the book say you cant be "registered" in more than one position in the same unit? I thought the primary purpose of the policy is 1) to prevent someone from registering as both SM (or CM) and CC and thereby avoiding some of the checks and balances, and 2) to keep units or more likely councils from cooking the membership books. It seems to me what we're talking about here is registering in one position and functioning in others.

In my humble opinion, if everyone is strictly limited to performing one and only one function, the whole organization collapses before breakfast. I have a closet full of different hats I wear.

I first trained under the old Basic Cub Scout Leader course, but have since had New Leader Essentials and position-specific training for Tiger Leader, Den Leader and Committee Member. I've been trying since April to do my Webelos training but have had Webelos Leader cancelled out from under me once and WLOT cancelled twice.

If I may, I'd like to join the whine and cheese crowd for a moment. Unless the objective is to re-train all Cub leaders every year, there are too many dang position-specific courses. There is very little difference between the courses. It's a distinction without difference.

I like the New Leader Essentials course. I think it is good that all levels of Scouters get the same big-picture overview of the program. But the problem is that they've pushed the Cub Scout program basics into the position-specific courses. The first 90 minutes of all the position-specific courses includes the same info on the basic program structure, how Packs are organized, uniforms, etc. And unfortunately, there is far too little information related to the specific position you're training for. I may barf if I have to play that "Pin the Badge on the Cub Scout" game again!

May I have another slice of the brie, please?

Reminds me of the old line about Vince Lombardi. The three most important things in his life were God, Country and the Green Bay Packers -- but not necessarily in that order!

We had a similar discussion among our Pack's committee members late last fall when scheduling problems pushed our fall campout further into November than we wanted. We came up with a good rule of thumb, for Cub Packs at least, which is this: Cub Scout camping is all about having fun. We're not out there to hone our survival skills, prove our manhood or test our mettle. If the weather forcast looks like if will make for a not-so-fun weekend, we cancel.

It's not just the parents, Pack leaders can be just as bad. I'm our district's Roundup Chairman and sent letters to 21 Cubmasters asking for them to let me know which schools their Packs wanted to recruit. I even provided stamped, addressed return envelopes. Five of the 21 responded.

You can set a nice table, but you can't make them eat. My attitude is that our Pack runs a good program, plans plenty of activities for the boys, but we're not going to beg anyone to participate. With Cubs at least, it's all up to the parents. I have one boy in my den who hasn't been to a meeting since before Christmas. I've run into him two or three time around town and he always says he wants to start coming back to Scouts. His dad tells me they never know when we meet. "Every Monday at 6:30," I tell him, but we never see the boy. I feel bad for him and I know this particular kid could really benefit from Scouting, but there's only so much you can do.

We've recently had a problem similar to Quixote's of people verbally signing up to attend events but not showing -- after we've already paid for food, etc. Our new policy is that every event has a written "application" form and that payment is upfront and non-refundable. Maybe if it costs them, they'll be a little more diligent.

A lifetime ago I worked as both a reporter for a local paper and later in public relations. Having been on that side of the notepad, I'd like to make two observations.

First, the reporter you're likely to have assigned to cover your event is likely a very young kid, fresh out of school with very little training and even less experience. This is especially true of the small, hometown papers that can't or won't pay for more experienced reporters.

My advice when dealing with such reporters is to be very clear with your part of the story. Always prepare a news release to give to the reporter so they have the facts in front of them. Have two or three main points you want to make and repeat them over and over. Give them phone numbers where they can reach you later for follow-up questions.

My second point is that if you are in a place like Los Angeles and want The Times to cover you Eagle Court of Honor, forget it. Newspaper editors are looking for news that impacts a lot of people, is unique or different, or has a particularly interesting or emotional twist. Our council has a couple hundred Eagle presentations every year. How can they justify sending a reporter to your CoH and not the other 199? Unless you have something really unusual or significant, it just doesn't meet their criteria for news.

Your better bet is to work with the local weekly newspapers and shoppers. Even the big papers usually have smaller inserts for the different communities they cover. They are more likely to be focused on your community and, because they may have only a couple reporters, are much more likely to run your news release as is. Also keep in mind that many papers have announcement pages for things like Eagle Scouts and honor roll students. Even if you can't get a reporter to show up for your event, getting the boys name and mug in the paper will still make his day.

Actually, the Tiger Promise is no more. They still have a separate motto, "Search, Discover, Share" as noted above.

I used the CS Promise and Law of the Pack for our openings and closings in our den meetings, beginning in January. I spent about 10 minutes of one Den meeting going over the Bobcat requirements with my Tigers. Of course they knew the sign and salute, which are part of the Tiger program, and most know the handshake. A couple boys knew the CS Promise and motto, so they led the den in reciting it. Every week we would recite one or the other for our opening or closing. By the end of the year, most everyone knew it. At one of our last Den meetings we went over all the Bobcat requirement again, discussing in more detail the meaning of everything.

I think this way is was more of a "learn by doing" experience than a rote memory drill.

Ed -- for that matter, where does the constitution say you can't scream "Fire!" in a crowded theater? Where does it say the police have to read you your rights before questioning you? Where is the Federal Communications Commission mentioned? And while we're at it, where does it say that the Supreme Court has the right to rule legislation unconstitutional?

I get a kick out of these Congressmen who carry a copy of the Consitution in their breast pocket. While it's a nice touch, it means little without a truck-load of law books behind them. The Constitution says what 213 years of case law and statutes says it says.

Clearly, the plain language of the First Amendment prohibits the government from promoting not just one denomination over another, but any religion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." If they had intended that government would promote religion generally, but be neutral among the various sects, they could have said so. "Congress shall make no law favoring one religious belief above another...", for example.

I also suggest care in invoking the beliefs of the Founding Fathers. While most of the founders were religious men -- Washington was a faithful Episcopalian and very prayerful -- others were not. I suspect the beliefs of Jefferson and Franklin, to name two, would not sit well with the members of this discussion group. As the principal author and editor of the Declaration of Independence, those two wrote of "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and "their Creator" with a purpose. Natural law was a specific line of philosphical thought in the 18th century, and not at all what we think of as today's mainstream Judeo/Christian beliefs.

One issue which has not been mentioned here -- and is especially pertinent among Scouters -- is the special status the courts have given children in this issue. The courts have consistently ruled that children should not be placed in the position of participating in religious practices which are contrarary to their own beliefs or having to protest them, silently or otherwise. In cases involving adults (the case over opening legislative sessions with a prayer, for example), the courts are much less likely to get involved. If you have the moxie to get yourself elected to the state legislature, you can presumably handle a prayer outside your own faith.

I have to admit that one of my pet peeves is the notion that prayer is not allowed in public schools. Baloney! No one has ever suggested that a student or anyone else is prohibited from bowing their head and offering a pray before lunch or a math test. Neither is a speech by the class valedictorian on how his or her faith led to their academic success. Think of it this way, if the Supreme Court ruled tomorrow that private, silent prayers are prohibited on school property, how would they stop you?

What is prohibited is for the principal -- a paid government official -- to stand before the students and lead them all in a prayer. I really get irked when some ding-a-ling school official makes the papers by completely mis-applying the courts' rulings by prohibiting students from wearing St. Christopher medals or carrying bibles to class.

I've always joked that the public schools have a hard enough time teaching the three R's -- why the heck would I want them involved in my child's religious upbringing? Ultimately, the courts are protecting my fundamental right as a parent to guide my own child's religious faith. The day my child's teacher asks the class join her in bowing toward Mecca and praying to Allah (or some even more remote faith), I will especially appreciate these protections.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Unless you have a Troop committee full of control freaks, I've found that forgiveness is frequently easier to obtain than permission, as the saying goes.

Why don't you and one of the other new parents just jump in and start working with the new boys and get them off on the right foot. Organize classes for them at every Troop meeting to cover the Tenderfoot and Second Class requirements they need. Take them out on a weekend (with proper two-deep leadership, of course) and work on orienteering and other outdoor requirements. Set up a merit badge class for them to attend during Troop meetings -- and shucks, isn't it just too bad that most of the older boys already have that particular merit badge.

Of course your real goal here is to set a new standard for the new guys. Insist that when they are on an outing with you, they are in full uniform. Get them in the habit of coming to Troop meetings prepared to work (the rule in my old Troop was that you always came to Scouts with your Scout book, a notepad and pencil.) Soon, your new guys with start to catch up in rank with the older Scouts. Include those older guys in your activities -- but they have to meet your standards, too.

Hopefully, some of these good habits will rub off on the older Scouts. Eventually, when these younger boys are in leadership positions in a few years, they will be running a Troop to which you'll be proud to send your Webelos.

I'm not advocating that you do anything to undermine the Scoutmaster or Troop committee -- my whole point is to avoid a big confrontation over how the Troop is run. How you pull this off depends on attitude. Make it a positive thing. Set a good example of how to lead the Troop. I'll bet that within a year, the committee and SM will come around to the benefit of doing things by the book.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Thank you all for your replies. Everyone seems to confirm that I'm on the right track persuing this. If I understand correctly, my best recourse is with the Council training committee.

We've gone through all the permutations of juggling the registration to make this work. But we shouldn't have to play games to get this guy the recognition he earned. It's especially bothersome that peole in leadership positions at the district level are creating an atmosphere where playing games with the registration is necessary. The bottom line is that this guy has earned the award -- and yes, for a job very well done, as one of the replies mentioned.

This is supposed to be the Tiger Leader Training Award, based primarily on performance and completing the required training. When they change it to Tiger Leader Bureaucratic Compliance Award, I'll be quiet about it.

Here's another good resource from the Virtural Cub Scout Leader Book: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9152/adultinsignia.html

I'll go the Cub Scout route a step further -- if your Troop doesn't have an affiliated Pack, start one! This is especially true if your chartered organization is a church or a similiar group with a ready supply of younger boys.

Contact you local District Executive about setting up a Pack. You can also talk up the idea with your chartered organization head and parents of boys with Cub-aged brothers.

I'm the Committee Chair of a large Pack and need advice on how to handle a problem with our district training chairman.

Six months ago, our Cubmaster was recruited away to serve as Scoutmaster of a new Troop. Fortunately, we have a great leader who was willing to step into the Cubmaster slot. This guy is an old Eagle Scout, has been through the program as a den leader with an older son, has all the training and is well versed in the program. At the time he moved into the Cubmaster position, he was (and still is) serving as a Tiger Den Leader with his younger boy. According to him, working directly with the boys in the den is his favorite part of Scouting and he has no intention of giving up being a den leader. No problems so far.

With the end of the year, he has submitted his application for the Tiger Leader Training Award, having completed all the requirements. Now here's the problem: our district training chairman has denied the award because he didn't complete the full year as a registered Tiger Den Leader. The last six months he was offically registered as Cubmaster.

The exact wording of the requirement says "Complete one year as a registered Tiger Cub den leader." I understand that "registered" means "registered" and that no one may be registered in more than one position in the same unit. I also know that there is a difference between being registered to a position and holding or functioning in a position. Frankly, we all know that if it weren't for volunteers wearing multiple hats, the whole program comes to a screeching halt tonight.

My purpose here is not to get into a hair-splitting debate over the interpretation of the requirements. Bottom line is I think the training chairman's decision is just plain wrong. This guy earned the award and deserves to get it. As his Committee Chair, I intend to go to bat for him to get it.

What I need to know is how do I go about doing that? What is the appeals process? Is there a formal process or am I better off working behind the scenes to make this right?

I made a hat press out of two pieces of particle board, one solid and the other with a cutout the size of the crown. It's pressed together with two bungies. Much nicer than the one Supply division sells. I also drilled a hole in one corner to hang it by, avoiding the "stuffed in a locker" look.

My campaign hat stays home on campouts. I wear it mostly for Pack meetings and other "Class A" events.

Here's your arcane trivia question for the week: Has the upper age limit for Scouting always been 18?

The reason for the question is that we were recently cleaning out my grandparents house and found my grandfather's certificates for earning tenderfoot, second class, first class and star ranks -- all dated circa 1940-41. Problem is, my grandfather would have been 24 or 25 during that time. Was that legal then?

It couldn't have been too bad as after the war he served as a Scoutmaster and Cub leader. And of his five grandsons, four are Eagles (and the fifth is working on it!)