Twocubdad

Welcome, Joe.

Depends on what you mean by "work on". If you mean learn and practice skills associated with the merit badge, no problem. If you mean complete requirements and expect the counselor to accept your or the Scouts word, I would say that depends on the requirement and the counselor.

Again, Camping as an example -- I doubt any Camping counselor would not accept the troop's records of a Scout's nights camping in satisfaction for the requirements. No problem. But I equally doubt a counselor would accept that a Scout explained the principles of Leave No Trace to a leader on a campout. It's just too easy to say, "okay, but explain it to me again now." A counselor needs to use reasonableness and look at the wording of the requirement. If a kid says he climbed a 2500 foot mountain at Philmont last year, it is unreasonable to disallow that because the counselor wasn't on the trek. But a counselor's default setting needs to be that the "do", "show", "demonstrate," "explain" requirements need to be completed with the counselor. If you were a First Aid counselor (almost all demonstrate/explain requirements) would you accept that a Scout completed all those requirements with someone else? I hope not.

Camping is a bad example, though. Unless you're in a district where the MB counselors really are random district-level volunteers, why isn't the Camping counselor regularly camping with the troop? Our tradition has been that the Scoutmaster and one or more of the ASM are registered counselor.

I know this is your first post, but if you've been reading these forums before, you know if you ask one question your get answers for all sorts of things you didn't ask about, so here goes:

First, you should be encouraging your Scouts to meet with the counselor before substantially beginning the badge. The counselor should be thought of as the merit badge teacher to whom the Scout goes to learn the material. If the Scout knows it all already and is just using the counselor to check the boxes, what's the point? I hope our counselors are adding value even on topics for which the Scout may have some level of mastery. Not that they add to the requirements, but I want them to add to the Scout's knowledge and experience beyond what is simply required for the badge. That's the Adult Association method at work -- Scouts sitting down besides adults of high character who are experts in their field. If all the counselors are doing is "grading" the worksheets off Merit Badge.com, you need new counselors.

Also, I hope what you mean by Scouts working on merit badges during campouts is an organic, Scout-originated process of a Scout approaching a leader or older Scout and asking for help with a particular skill. Or perhaps even a patrol deciding they are all going to sleep in survival shelters for the weekend for Wilderness Survival MB. I would caution you to not let merit badges become too much of a focus for the troop. Please don't run troop merit badge classes. Our troop will sometimes do "merit badge topics" as part of troop instruction time and campouts. If a Scout participates in the instruction, he will gain much of the information he needs to complete the merit badge, but the Scout still has to put in the time and effort to actually complete the requirements and make an appointment with the counselor.

Thanks!

Is anyone else having a problem with this error message? Seems like the auto save function is gummed up. After a few minutes of typing I start to get this error. It seems to pop up about every 30 seconds.

Who said "replace all", Matt? You've taken this to an illogical extreme. No one has suggested the average Scout camp counselor should be 62.

My premise in starting this thread is that too many camps recruit the staff they can attract/afford then assign MB classes rather than finding good counselors and recruiting them. I'm asking how to turn that around. If your assumption is we should recruit older staffers just to ensure summer employment for 50-something Scout leaders, you've made a mistake. The point should be to improve the program. Yes, there are some excellent 18-y.o. MBCs staffing camp who are experts in their subject and are great instructors. But to my eye there are an equal number of 16-y.o. "merit badge instructors" on camp staffs whose expertise is limited to having earned the merit badge at the same camp from another 16 y.o. three summers earlier.

The relationship you are describing between Scouts and "big brother" camper staffers is a noble goal indeed. Fortunately, and through a lot of hard work, we've developed a troop program in which the older, SPL-type campers ARE our SPL and older troop members. But still, a camp full of college-age staffers doesn't guarantee that any more that a staff of 60 year olds guarantees competent merit badge counselors. Your are absolutely correct that both traits are highly dependent on the individual and independent of age. If somehow the balance between younger and older staffers does start to skew toward the geezers it is the job of the camp director to bring in younger blood. The camps I know have the converse problem and I don't see any effort to move in the other direction.

Saying "shame on" the camps, councils and national isn't enough. Over the years we've had countless threads bemoaning the problems of merit badge mills. Unfortunately, far too many camps and apparently those at national charged with maintaining standards have decided that as long as enough parents and troops are satisfied that quantity of merit badges is more important than the quality of instruction, that is what the market will supply.

I like the form. It's an interesting idea. But I have to ask what the down side is for coming in under 100 points?

They didn't get bad reviews, they were murdered.

I get your point, SP, and understand what you were trying to say, but that is one of the more offensive things I've read here lately.

Yes, just because we can, we, indeed, should. Otherwise that's the First Amendment equivalent of "if you have nothing to hide you won't mind me searching your car." Civil Rights are useless unless they are exercised from time to time.

Volunteers are SUPPOSED to be running the program. The pros are supposed to worry about money and members. Be careful what you ask for. We complain when the pros aren't involved in the program and we complain when they are.

What is your guess of the street value of a single shot, bolt action .22 rifle? I'm guessing the thieves would have been better off had they taken the four chain saws they left behind. I'm not a shooting sports guy, but aren't BSA shotguns modified so they only accept one shell at a time too?

If the dad in the report is really worried about the these guns being on the street, either he's an idiot or the producers did some judicious editing to create a little drama. I'm betting on the latter. You go after someone with a bolt-action .22 in McDowell County, your life expectancy is measured in nanoseconds.

Fred, when explaining the situation to the parents of 10-y.o. Webelos looking to join the troop in two months, do you think they will be concerned with nuances of dealing vs. distributing, vs. providing vs. facilitating vs. passing out vs., vs., vs.?

My guess is they will cut to the chase and be concerned that one or more Scouts are bring weed to campouts and "making it available" to the other Scouts.

And when I signed up, I don't recall seeing anything on the application about agreeing to go along with the poor decisions of the prior administration or turning a blind eye to prior misdeeds. But that was years ago. I'll allow the application may have been updated.

We get some version of the "Scouts and Weed" thread once or twice a year. I've been in this situation before myself.. I've said before that whatever a Scout's personal situation may be, bringing drugs and alcohol to Scouts and "making them available" to other Scouts crosses a BIG line.

That being the case, he should talk with the Scout executive. Any negative results from the background check are reported to the SE. If a volunteer is disqualified, the SE sends a letter to the CO letting them know the application has been rejected, but provides no details.

Actually, AARP membership isn't required. I know a lot of 50ish corporate guys who have four-plus weeks of vacation banging around looking for something to do. No, you're not going to get a 30 something guy with a couple young kids to give up another week of vacation to Scouts.

I didn't really intend to limit the thread to MBCs either. Nothing in the world wrong with working the T-2-1 program, although in my experience the older Scouts are more capable of running that program than many merit badges -- if they have the proper leadership. Unfortunately, T-2-1 seems to be the dumping ground for new staffers unqualified to do anything else. I know our camp's T-2-1 program would greatly benefit from an old fogey sitting in a chair, drinking coffee and pointing with a hiking stick.

 

One other question as an aside. Do you recommend to you scouts you only take X number of MBs at camp so that they have time to have fun and do other things like free shooting, swimming, etc?

Missed your question the first time, E94. No, don't put limits on the number of MBs a Scout can take. I do try to let him and his parents know how much fun he will be missing and the opportunities to really take in summer camp if he's sitting through six hours of class per day. We have a very active troop program going on in the afternoon and evening, so most our guys know to leave the time open.

While we don't have a cap, on the other end I do provide considerable cover for Scouts who only want to take a couple MBs -- or even none (usually reserved for the older guys). I pound on the parents that the idea that it's Scout camp -- he whole idea is to have down time.

It's a two way street. Have the counselor sign the printout and return it to the SM. Or maybe the counselor can call the SM. When it turns into a PIA for another adult, may the SM will get off the schneid.

Ditto, Scouter99

But I'm rather interested in the agreement behind the "leadership shuffle" which led to you becoming SM. It sounds like the council was involved in that. If so, that would be highly unusual that the council involves itself in unit leadership issues. . Either way, you've been put in an impossible situation -- bound by both your obligations to run a program which lives up to the Oath and Law while hamstrung by the terms of the agreement.

So here's my advice: punt. Boot the whole mess, wash your hands of it and get on with the business of Delivering the Promise to your troop. Your time, energy and loyalty needs to be with the other half of the troop which wasn't involved in this mess. There are good Scouts there who are being impacted by this situation through no fault of their own. They deserve a good program, absent of the stench the other Scouts and their families have brought into the troop. That's where your focus should be.

Send a letter to each of the four plus you don't feel are forth coming and tell them you decline further participation in their quest for Eagle. If they choose to pursue Eagle, they must do so under the protocols for Eagle under disputed circumstances. At that point, by national policy (see the Guide to Advancement) you are out of it. The troop committee can choose to continue forward with their Boards of Review (or not). Or it can be dealt with by the council advancement committee. Copy the district and council advancement chairmen on your letter and let everyone know that you neither accept nor respond to further communications.

The other option is to leave the whole stinking mess where it is, take the remaining boys and either move to -- or start -- a new troop.

Keep in mind that with his Eagle application, a Scout must submit a letter of recommendation from a religious leader, or if there is none (I'm not aware of Flying Spaghetti Monster priests) a parent must submit an equivalent letter addressing the Scout's religion (my words, I'm not looking up the quote.) For adherents of the FSM, it should be interesting reading.

Why do I get Scouter a week after the rest of you? Grandpa always complained about the Grand Ol' Opry not getting here until Tuesday morning. Maybe this is what he meant.

(For those who aren't aware, the Grand Ol' Opry was broadcast live on Saturday nights. If you didn't receive it until sometime Tuesday you must live WAY back in the country.)

The Scoutmaster failed both the Scout and the members of the board. This is something which should have been dealt with well before the EBOR level.

Fairly early (maybe not Tenderfoot, but certainly by First Class) I ask Scouts how they do their "Duty to God". Now, even the T-2-1 Scout Spirit requirements mean at some point he has to give a concrete example of how he demonstrates Reverence. I'm not some much interested in the Scout's response -- after all, there are really only a couple "wrong" answers -- but I'm looking for an entre' to discussing BSA attitude toward religion. I don't reference the DRP, but that's what I'm covering. I explain that a Scout must do his duty to God in the manner proscribed by his family and church. Although our troop is sponsored by a church, nothing requires the Scout to follow that church's -- or any particular church's -- belief. However Scouting does expect a Scout to have a belief in a higher power. I am THE LAST person who will push my beliefs onto anyone else, but it is my responsibility to help Scouts understand the two pledges they have agreed to live by.

A major part of any BOR is assessing the troop program and discussing it's findings with the troop leadership. You need to do that.

Pack -- we've eliminated them in our troop. I take the camp schedule and white-out Communications, the citizenships, Personal Fitness, etc. before we distribute to the Scouts. The only blow-back I get is from parents. The Scouts generally appreciate it. I mean really, who wants to take Communications at summer camp.

Qwazse -- you disappoint me. Just when I thought you had kicked the Flavorade.

When I ran CSDC, we were required to build-in a 10% contingency. Makes sense. Breaking even is a myth, you're either making money or losing it. This isn't the federal government. We can't print money or quantitatively ease our budget, so we must stay in the black. No problem. At the end of camp we almost always had more than 10% left and would invest in equipment for next year and return the rest to the council.

And I'm all for accurate cost accounting. The camps which are held on council property need to be paying their share of the power and water bill, camp maintenance, staff, etc. But our camp was held at church which provided the facilities at no cost. We ran the camp for years and never saw a pro, so there were no staff salaries. Because the camp rangers wouldn't let go of "their" equipment, over the years we bought all our own gear -- coolers, BB guns, canopies, sports equipment, everything. In other words, our cost to the council: Zero, Zilch, Nada.

One year we had a spike in attendance. Revenues go up, fixed cost stay the same. Wound up with something over 20% left on the table. So I started spending money like a bootleggers wife. Upgraded snacks for the campers. Better crafts, invested in new canopies, compound bows. I had a blast. Of course, our DE had a duck. YOU CAN'T DO THAT! The heck I can't, I just did. When I threatened to stand at the car line Friday afternoon and hand $20 bills to every parent, he backed off.

Now, the council mandates a 20% "contingency" for day camps. That's bull. That is turning a program in to a profit center. As long as the "profit" is made on the backs of volunteer labor, that isn't right. Pay the staff, then we'll start talking about profits. The council exists to support the program. It takes in donations, raises money and enjoys it's tax-exempt status in order to subsidize the program. But to then charge the Scouts program fees which cover 100% of the cost of the program AND throws off money to the general fund is wrong.

Let's call this program C.I.R -- Counselor In Retirement -- which bookends nicely with Counselor In Training. Or Curmudgeon in Repose. Maybe Crabby Individual Resting. I'm sure the Scouts will find more fitting titles.

Over the years there have been more weeks than not where I've been presses into service as a MBC for at least part of the week if not all. That's not really what I'm talking about. That's fine for an emergency fill-in, but as noted above, too inconsistent.to build a program around. Myself, I have no problem staying busy during the troop's week at camp.. It takes a lot of effort to look like you're doing nothing.

Seems to me the MB programs which require certification -- aquatics, climbing, shooting -- take care of themselves. My camp, at least, usually has solid, college-aged area directors, but there is a considerable drop-off from there. The problems areas are the "aw, anyone can teach that" merit badges which are poorly run -- handicrafts, scout crafts, nature -- dumping grounds for the 15- and 16-y.o. staffers.

What would be appealing to me would be flexibility of schedule. I may give them two weeks, but not six. My thought would be at the beginning of the year, find two, three or four experienced counselors to split the season and create one full-time equivalent counselor. We could attend a couple days of staff week to get the required training and to coordinate our curriculum and materials.

This is just me, but I don't necessarily want to play Man Scout all summer. I really don't need to participate in all the skits and silly "spirit" stuff. (I've always defined Scout Spirit as living by the oath and law. Not sure which point of the law include hula skirts.) I would want to teach my classes and be done for the day. The 16-y.o. staffers can supervise the dodgeball tournament. Same for Saturday and Sunday. My level of expertise is not required to check troops in or to inspect campsites. I need to be on site by 0900 Monday and gone at 1600 Friday.

Every time we mention problems of summer camp merit badge programs under aged, inexperience and plain ol' incompetent counselors are mentioned. I assume just about everyone here counsels a few merit badges for which we have some relative expertise.

So let me ask this -- what would it take for you to be on camp staff for a few weeks of the summer? Better food? Accommodations? Pay? For the sake of argument, let's put aside the obvious problem of vacation time aside.

Or perhaps another to ask the question is, if you were your camp's program director, how would you go about recruiting older, experienced counselors?

Scouting is to be experience, not completed. Experience takes time.

I believe it is my responsibility to help the Scouts I serve get the most out of the Scouting program. I hope we can all agree Scouts get more from the program the longer they remain in it. One of the beauties of the program is its breadth which allows boys to repeat activities at different ages and stages in their lives and learn learn and gain more each time. I hope our Scouts learn as much from their first year of summer camp as their seventh. In my opinion, tenure in the program is more important than awards earned.

My goal is for my Scouts to proudly age out of the program at 18 as active participants in the troop. Advancement plays a big part in this. The advancement program taps into boys need for accomplishment. The advancement program give them very tangible waypoints to measure their accomplishment. Boys who make Eagle at a very early age lose this important reason for remaining in the program. Sure, there are Hornaday awards and the new outdoor awards, but let's be realistic: Eagle Scout is what they are here for. They've heard Eagle since they were Tigers. Eagle Scout is the exemplar. When that goal is met, it is very difficult to set another which carries that same significance.

Sure, we all know boys who Eagle early and stay with the program, I was one. I earned Eagle at 13 1/2 and am still active. But I earned Eagle along with 8 of my buddies all at about the same age. Only two of us were still in the troop by the time we entered high school. This has been my experience as a youth and now after almost 20 years as a leader. Scouts who make Eagle early -- especially those who are highly focused on advancement -- don't tend to hang around much after Eagle. Advancement is an iconic part of the program. Knocking that leg out from under the stool remove a huge reason for being a Scout.

Now before you guys pounce, let me say this isn't an either/or program choice. Our options aren't limited to producing 11-year-old Eagles (as in the concurrent thread about the kid in CA) or standing on their necks until we think they are "old enough." I always say there is more Art to being as Scoutmaster than Science. Rarely do I ever have to tell a Scout to slow down and never do I purposely hold them up. I never want to hear 30 years from now that someone would have made Eagle but their Scoutmaster wouldn't let them. Instead I have a whole bunch of arrows in my quiver for expanding the program and helping them enjoy the side trails. Of course OA, Philmont, jamboree and other high adventures are the classic BSA solutions to keeping boys interested. But those are things a Scout may experience only once or twice in his Scouting career. More important is creating an environment and troop culture where older Scouts are welcome and want to keep coming. We must provide them meaningful leadership experiences, time alone with friends of his own age (they don't like to babysit any more than we do), a real sense they have meaningful control of the program, the feeling that their time in Scouting is well spent, activities they enjoy and -- ABSOLUTELY -- still having the prize of Eagle Scout in front of them.

We have been very fortunate to put together a troop program which accomplishes this. One of the highlights of my time as Scoutmaster was two summers ago taking 54 Scouts to summer camp including a group of six who were attend camp with the troop for the seventh year. Next week we will welcome a brand-new 18-year-old ASM into the troop -- the same night he will sit for his Eagle Board of Review. Some will decry him as a "death bed" Eagle, but I would describe him as a Scout who got the most out of every single day he was eligible to be a Boy Scout.

Reminds me of my grandmother. The sheets and pillow cases at her house were always full of holes, patches and seams where she had pieced them back together. But she died with a closet full of brand-new linens still in the packages. She always said she was saving them for "good" but somehow good never came. A product of raising a family during the Depression, no doubt.

The SM is doing the same thing. He thinks he's protecting the boys from losing the cards, but the cards are of no more use all locked up than they would be if the Scouts lost them. They can no more complete partial badges now than if the cards were, in fact, destroyed. You can try pointing out the lack of logic there, but I doubt it will help.

Here's a thought -- offer to take over as merit badge coordinator. You take responsibility for the cards and will make sure the boys handle them "appropriately." Set up procedures which will free up the cards to the boys, but also make the SM comfortable. Step one, the blue cards are stored under glass in nitrogen-filled cases. Scouts can view but not touch the cards. Okay, maybe you skip that step, but it's easy enough for you to throw a blue card on a copier before giving the original to the Scout. If necessary YOU, not the SM, will be responsible for creating another original blue card. Then again, maybe you just tell the Scout "responsibility bites" and give him a blank card. Of course your goal will be to wean the SM from the current Webelos III system, but you don't need to point that out right away.

We've got a big troop, 60+, and have a member of the troop advancement subcommittee who serves at MB coordinator. He provides blue cards and counselors to Scouts asking for them, and process the blue card and advancement paperwork on the back end. At some point during troop meetings he will hand me a stack of cards to sign. The only partials we really handle are from summer camp. Our camp tracks MBs online. At the end of camp we print a report showing each completed MB or partial. The partials are rendered into blue cards which are distributed with the completed requirements shown on the card (yeah, it's a lot of work.) These are given to the Scouts and I'm sure most are lost or run through the laundry in fairly short order. BUT, we still have the Internet report (both online and hard copies) we can go back to if necessary.

I don't think any of our guys really deal with partials on MBs earned outside summer camp. Most counselors simply work with the boys until the badge is completed and then sign the card.

I don't understand this. Why doesn't the SM want to give the boys the cards? Is he afraid the Scouts will lose them? He doesn't want them working on MBs before earning ranks? Is he just disorganized and can't get around to producing the cards?

The SM's reasons and rationale make a difference with how I would suggest you proceed. I allow for the possibility the SM has good reason for this and you and your son need to listen to his counsel. Then again, this may be a situation where you need to move up the chain of command through the troop committee and district/council advancement folks.

 

It wasn't until later in school that I realized I was crap at math.

LOL. Reality has a way of creeping in and biting us in the butt, eh?

I think we all have an inflated view of the role of merit badges in career development. Over and over again I see Scouts earning the merit badge for the career they wish to pursue AFTER developing an interest in the subject. That's been the case for myself, both my sons and four or five more of my Scouts I can name off the top of my head. In the case of both my sons, they were disappointed in the content and depth of the merit badges and both felt they knew more about it than the summer camp counselor who taught it.

But inspiration comes in strange forms. I have another Scout, a junior in college, who sold discount books to raise money for his Eagle project. He claims to have enjoyed that so much that he decided to major in business and marketing.

Welcome to the campfire, OS.

Over the years the regulars here have hear Basementdweller's stories of trying single-handedly to run a low-income unit of mostly single parents, getting no help from the district/council, dealing with bigotry at summer camp, being run off from selling popcorn in the more affluent neighborhoods, etc., etc.

All the while, he has been the guy running the type unit you grew up in, providing the resources and opportunities you were given, frequently out of his own pocket and without much help.

What is galling in this thread is that the PARENTS AND TROOP ADULTS still don't get it. They have no appreciation for what BD has done/is doing for their sons. No one is willing to step up and shoulder any of the burden. Some could have said, here's $5 to cover that kid's bowling, here's a couple bucks to chip in toward pizza. I'll get pizza at the store and bake it to cut the costs. No. Their solution was for BD to pay for the entire outing, apparently with the tacit approval of the troop committee.

You can only go to the well so many times. Sooner or later, the money and compassion starts to run low.