Twocubdad

I'll agree that "prestige" is the wrong word, but I understand the point and the frustration. Part of the issue is the usual career track of parents following their sons through the program means most Cub leaders move up to BS after a few years, but once in Boy Scout folks settle in for years. I don't know many folks who have served as den leaders or cubmasters more than a few years, but guys with decades as Boy Scout leaders or service on council and district committees are not uncommon. Problem is, these old timers have lots of time to build their little empires which they are loathsome to give up. Oh, they are more than happy to let you jump in and put thousands of hours into the Cub Scout program, but when you move up to the Boy Scout level, don't think for a minute that years of work and effort earn you a seat at the big boy table. I'd like to see a requirement that council committee membership reflect the overall membership of the council between Cubs, Boy Scouts, Venturers and, yes E92, Sea Scouts.

And the adult leader(s!) are in the same boat as the emergency response folks. How many of us would be willing to make the non-call? Too many unknowns, especially on the river. Calico is already questioning the delay in calling for help. Not that he's wrong -- having scouts unaccounted for on a river for 10 hours and waiting until 11pm to call is highly questionable. (And I understand we haven't heard precisely what time the 911 call was made. 11pm was when the mutual aid call went out.) Of course the biggest problem here is the single leader. We do canoe treks every year with the troop broken up into patrols (or sometimes ad hoc river crews, if needed). We're organized like a Philmont trail crew with two adult accompanying each crew. We try to spread out so the boys have some open river to themselves. The senior guys always take the point with at least one adult canoe with them and with someone familiar with the river responsible for navigation. If there are turns in the river where there is potential for getting off course, we pre-designate those as rest stops. The lead crew is to stop until the second patrol/crew has them in sight, then the lead group is free to go ahead. But the reality here is the rivers aren't too complicated and don't have side channels you may confuse. The only problem we ever encountered is over shooting the final destination. If we were on a complex river network we would probably change our strategy so the middle groups don't have a chance of taking a side channel without the knowledge of those ahead and behind them. And always, always always the adult responsible for the trip is at the tail end of the line and never lets anyone fall behind.

... Or to have been quoted saying, "GPS is for wussies."

It's difficult for me to get excited about the cellphones one way or the other, given the usual degree of precision found in daily news reporting. "Taken" doesn't necessarily mean "conficated" but could very easily mean "was holding for safe keeping." The only better outcome would have been for the scouts to tell the S&R guys, "no thanks, we'll paddle out in the morning."

Our troop gives our Eagles 5, 6 or 7 years of Scouting, hundreds of hours of volunteer time, indivudual counseling and coaching, the opportunity to go on a many campouts and amazing high advantures. I think that's enough. Our council provides the Eagle kit and all other rank badges at no cost. Of course we spend a lot of money on merit badges and such, too. Those cost -- and the rank awards if we had to pay for them -- come from the troop's general fund. We've had scout show up with a boat-load of letter from all over. We've had families honor their Eagles with West Fellowships. We'll present anything the Scout and his family want, but I don't believe it's the troop's obligation to pay for all they extras.

Maybe they should rethink how many people in the council should go if they can't help out the local program first.

I don't care who they sell it to or where, rather that they are now selling all sorts of "unofficial" performance parts that aren't in the "official" kit. To keep some semblance of a level competition, the rule in our pack was that all parts had to be "official BSA". Well that's now out the window. "What do you mean I can't use the rocket motors? It says BSA right here on the box!" Just another aggravation for the unit leaders created by National.

Lowe's has similar stuff, although they are less involved selling the accessories, rather have some cross-promotion with Dremel. Somewhere (maybe it was Michael's) I saw one of these display which featured "high performance" wheels and axels. Log on to Scout Stuff and you'll find over $150 in jigs and alignment tools for the truely over-the-top racer. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before you'll be able to buy official BSA cars, complete and ready to race. (They've been available online for years.) So much for supporting the program if there's a buck to be made. Pity the poor pack leader who wants to run a fair, fun event for the boys and avoid all the adult-driven uber-competition. It has been a few years since I ran a PWD (for which I greatfully thank the Lord), but if I had to do so again, I would adopt SeattleP's approach of including building the cars in the during the day of the race. And that's a shame too. One of my greatest joys in Cub Scouting was spending time working with my son's on their cars.

Momof2cubs, yeh need your COR to take this up on your behalf. As just a "consumer" of BSA materials, yeh aren't entitled to corporate financials. But your COR as a member of the corporation is, eh? That, in a nutshell, is the problem. The idea that the volunteers are just another market to be exploited by the corporation. "Not only are these people so stupid they are doing for free what I'm getting $100K+ for, but they'll pay US for the priviledge of volunteering. And hey, watch this -- I'll bet you a round of drinks I can get this one to pay me $155 just for my signature!" There used to be a slogan that Scout is volunteer run and professionally guided. I suppose now that's more of a punchline than a slogan.

The products in the scout shop are still overpriced, but the real money goes to national, not the councils. One of the reasons all the local retailers who used to have small "scout shops" in the corners of their stores have mostly gone away is the margin BSA allows is about 5% (at least that's what the lady who used to stock scout stuff told me before she got rid of it all.)

"He said maybe we should rethink how many people in the family should go if we couldn't help out the local program first. " Okay, that's the point I would have gone flat-out, ape-flippin' Bee-zerk. What an arrogant SOB. So I assume not everyone in Michigan is holding hands singing Kumbaya the way they let on in the last issue of Scouting.

Well, the backpacking theory isn't a sure thing. This past weekend I had two boys who each packed four cans of Monster on a 10-mile trip. The took the Monster instead of water. I found out after the trip. All I told them was, "don't do that again. First of all you don't need to be drinking that junk. Secondly, it's not fair to your patrol mates. You were supposed to be carrying water for the patrol to use. Did you cook dinner or clean up with Monster? No, you used the water someone else packed in. That's not how we do things."

Pack wrote: Really, this is a case where the vendor (BSA) thinks their product is worth a certain price and they are telling you up front what that price is. If the price is too high (and that's what I'm getting here) then simply decline (as seems to be the case) and devote your resources to another investment, such as your own unit and the boys in it. Nah, this is just extortion. There is no fee for service as there is no service involved. All Trainerlady is looking for is a signature on a preprinted form which attests she is a volunteer in good standing with the council. And you're telling me the coucil -- the very people for whom she has donated substantial amounts of time and probably money -- can't take the time to pull a pen out of their pocked and sign their name? That is a shameful way to treat good, honest volunteers. How many points of the Scout Law does this violate?

I'm still getting redirected to a variety of strange sites when trying to use Scouter.com. I can click on some threads and do just fine, but other times I'm still redirected to other sites. Over the weekend, I picked up a virus here which shut down my computer. I was able to remove it and had an IT buddy of mine run some of his hot-shot AV software. He thinks I'm clean. Are the problems still on the site or do I have a problem with my computer.

Homework assignment: Everyone needs to get a copy of "Fiddler on the Roof" and watch it. Somewhere "there is no other hand." When discussing a compromise of the BSA religious principles, I would consider the full spectrum of religious thought, not narrowly where the BSA policy currently stands. If you consider a requirement of strict adherance to a particular religious dogma to be a "10" and absolutely no religious requirement whatsoever to be a "0", I'd call the BSA Declaration of Religious Principles a "1". The DRP is a remarkably liberal and accepting document. You can be ANYTHING you want as long as you have a belief in a loosely-defined higher power. If you think Harvey the Rabbit is god, and can make a sincere case for how you do your duty to Harvey and show reverence toward him, that is acceptable under the DRP. (But I will grant you, not acceptable to every chartered organization.) Now, instead of discussing where we are on my 10 point scale, the debate has focused on where the program should fall between zero and one. And I promise you, if BSA says okay we'll move our policy to "0.1" the debate will then shift to arguing over 100ths or 1,000ths. At some point you can only dim a light so far before it is turned off. Boy Scouting either has a religious component or it doesn't. We either ask our members to have some belief in a higher power -- any higher power -- or we don't. We promise to do our "Duty to God" or drop that from the oath. I agree with Moose that further compromise isn't possible. The compromise was made years ago. Further compromise will simply be full capitulation. ON THE OTHER HAND (thank you, Tevye), there probably is further room for compromise on the homosexual issue. You have to admit, however, over the 12 years since the Dale decision, BSA has come a long way from the position set forth in its legal argument to the current "don't ask, don't tell" approach. And remember the case last year from northern Virginia where a CO booted an "unavowed" lesbian leader? The BSA folks sort of threw up their hands and said, "hey, this isn't BSA doing this, it's the local CO, we don't have anything to do with it", It seems to me the policy has now become "don't ask/don't tell/no, seriously we REALLY don't want to know". Mooose and E-dad's point that BSA is in a damned-if-they-do/damned-if-they-don't is insightful. Did any of you read the comments at the bottom of The Atlantic article in the OP? Geez. It's unlikely any of those folks are going to throw their support to BSA if the membership policy is changed.

I'm furious just reading this. If your council is so broke they've resorted to this, it's time for them to wiz on the fire and call in the dogs. I'm not sure who you call about this. If you have volunteered with a particular group (not just volunteering generally and taking an assignment later) I'd contact the person in charge of your area. That may be a show-stopper for me.

Pack's got it. The survival kit is really just part of the game to get kids interested and thinking. Most stuff our boys put in a survival kit are the sorts of things they would have with them on a campout anyway -- fire starter, first aid, cordage, compass, etc. If you're prepared to survive in the woods, you're prepared to survive in the woods. I rather doubt any of our boys take their survial kits with them on any outing other than the wilderness survival campout. That's okay. The real kit is the one you carry between your ears. For example, one thing I recommend the boys keep in their kit is a length of surveyor's tape to mark trails and/or your emergency shelter. Survival shelters, built out of native materials, are terrific hiding places. If you're asleep in your shelter when the S&R team comes by, they may miss you. We teach the boys to mark their shelters to help rescuers find you. The lesson still applies even if you don't have the surveyor tape, you just have to be a little more creative.

I'm with you on the YP training directed at the boys. When I was CM the pack committee previewed "A Time to Tell" with the plan to show it to the boys. About a third of the way in we shut off the video and sat in disbelief. Not a single parent was comfortable showing it to their sons. By the same token, when we showed "It Happened to Me" to the Jamboree Troop (it was a national requirement) we could hardly restrain the laughter. Throughout the jamboree whenever anyone would ask one of the boys to do something -- cleaning, hauling out trash, making a food run -- the boys would shout, "I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT" to rolls of laughter from the rest of the guys. It's definitely time for a realistic update. I don't know about your other points. Adding coverage for counseling, etc., seems resonable. But the rest don't seem to be oriented toward protecting the children in the program, rather making up for the past. My hunch is with the state of tort laws in the US, trying to do as you suggest could put the organization at risk of hundreds of millions of dollars in liabilities. While some past victims may accept the assistance as offered, many more will use the opening to go after millions in damages. Unfortunately, our legal system doesn't seem to allow folks to do right by the victims without giving away the store. Yeah, at some level someone needs to be looking out to protect the corporation. Would you be willing to make those offers if you knew the potential liabilities would cripple the program? But I'm the first to admit this is WAY outside my area of knowledge and expertise. I'm perfectly willing to let those with that expertise make those decisions. And I dont' really understand the issue with the Perversion Files. Seems to me BSA is getting screwed for trying to be conscientious. That they kept records on these people was a good thing, right? I understand how the tort lawyers want to mine them for clients, I dont' understand how the existance of the files has been spun into a public relations negative among the general public.

So what changes would you make to the current YP policies.

So out of 10 or so different posters here, at least three -- BD, airbornevet and camiam -- report being pressured to make mandatory contributions or face workplace reprisals. Hardly scientific but 30%? Wow. Why doesn't UW take action on this, or are they just happy to cash the checks? Why aren't payroll deductions kept confidential?

So Shiff and E61, you guys are are agreeing BSA has it right, since the BSA policy is to contact authorities first, scout folks later?

I think some of you are missing the point. If you're the OA advisor sending an email about an upcoming OA event, it's perfect acceptable to sign off with John Smith, OA Chapter Advisor. Or for the membership chairman to send an email regarding Cub roundup signed, Jane Doe, District Membership Chairman. What's pompus are the emails I get which list five different positions you hold or have held, four of which have absolutely no relationship to the subject of the email. Pure puffery.

Beavah, Esquire?

Our guys love this stuff and the challenge is coming up with something different. We did the same thing last month. During the month leading up the the campout, the boys assembled personal survival kits which they carried on campout. The kits had to fit in a sandwich bag but patrols were allowed to coordinate kits (you bring matches, I'll bring cord). When they got there they "found" a piece to tarp and a can. They were also told to expect a number of challenges like land nav, fire building, treating water, etc., most of which didn't occur, but they still had to be prepared. Dinner was a small steak, potatoes, carrots and a piece of fruit. (Our campsite has no opportunity for really foraging for food). One patrol made kabobs, another grilled the steaks on a flat rock, a couple boiled the veggies in their tin cans. It was a really cold weekend (okay, not if you live in Beavahland, but dang cold for God's Country) so the guys spent most of the day beefing up their shelters and staying hunkered-down by the fire. They had a great time. We have a couple ex-military pilots in the troop and a few years they taught a session on military Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape training. The kids went bonkers. They ran a scenario where each patrol was a para-rescue team and had to pick up a downed pilot. The "rescue helio" was a minivan which pulled into the clearing and the patrol deployed a security perimeter around the van. The PL was on a radio with the pilot and had to exchange passwords before the rescue. The dads ran the whole protocol for a rescue. They shot one pilot who started running for the helio before giving the password. It was a hoot. I don't care who you are, playing army is always fun.

Maybe it would be more tolerable if they were more truthful. Respectfully, TwoCubDad Scoutmaster Senior Member, Scouter.com Curmudgeon Grumpy SOB General PIA