Twocubdad

I am usually a strong proponent of the "don't make kids pay for adult mistakes" theory and in the case of the older kid would probably give him the benefit of the doubt. But to misquote Supreme Court Justice Something-er-other, BSA policy is no suicide pact. This mom is perpetuating an out-and-out fraud. The council should gow a pair, revoke the boy's bogus lone scout membership and tell him to go find a troop.

I'm not 100% clear on the LDS structure either. But here's the deal: what you are describing isn't Cub Scouting. There is a program for you to follow. There is training for you to take to learn the program and there is a support structure of other leaders whose job it is to support you. You need to tap into these resources. First stop is the Cubmaster of your Pack. (You are in a Cub Scout Pack, not a Boy Scout Troop, which is for boys 11 and up.) The Cubmaster is responsible for programming for the pack and as a den leader, you report to him. He's there to run the pack program and help you with your den program. If discipline within the den continues to be a problem, I would ask the Cubmaster for assistance. There is also a pack leaders' committee which is there to help with the administrative details of running the pack. One member of the pack committee is the Training Chairman who should be able to direct you to a number of on-line and live training seminars. Different sessions will teach you BSA policies, the Cub Scout program for your level (Bear) and give you some specific program ideas to use during your den meetings. If you don't know who these folks are, I'd go back to the person who assigned you to work with the Cubs -- your Ward President maybe? I know you may not have choosen to be a den leader, but I commend you for your attitude that if you're going to do it, do it right. I don't know how LDS church assignments work, but personally, if someone assigns me a job I believe the OWE me the resources to do it right. You need to go to these folks and make sure they are giving you the resources you need to be successful. Your boys deserve it.

Interesting. A program under which you can ignore the underlying principles, put forth no effort, produce nothing yet still win on some technicality usually requires the involvement of the Federal government.

This is a bit of an odd duck of a trip -- relatively speaking a last minute trip to Seabase (this July/August). We're accustomed to planning Philmont trips over a much longer time frame with many -- if not most -- crew members turning over in the 18 months or so a Philmont trek is in the works. With only four months to go, without the gear and training requirements of a trek, I don't expect the same level of turnover. Of course the guy with the short straw stays on as the first alternate. But given the circumstance of the Seabase trips, adding slots or a second crew just isn't an option -- it's an 8-person boat and two have to be adults. Those are just the parameters. You really think it reasonable to pull the plug on the trip because we have one guy too many? How does that work for the 17-year-old who doesn't have time to wait for us to win a lottery slot where we have more control over the paramenters. (We did put in for a more accommodating slot in the lottery, but didn't get it.) Maybe your troops are full of volunteers who would take two weeks of vacation and pay $1500 to go on a trip their son got the boot on, but we don't. If we had another father/Scout pair waiting in the wings, that may be a different situation, but recruiting these two leaders wasn't a given. And none of the other parents are willing to go. Putting the leaders' sons in the lottery just isn't reasonable.

We've got a last-minute, fill-in slot at Seabase. The six openings is a hard number and there are no other trips available around us. Going with another group would be wholly separate from out trip. Does anyone disagree with drawing straws among the five Scouts?

What critera do you use for selecting crew members to HA bases when you have more guys going than you have space for? Draw straws? The sons of the crew advisors are in. One of those two will age out before he has another chance to go, but I would consider that a reason for an automatic in. All the rest are either First Class or Star and 14 or 15 y.o. Do any of you use subjective selection criteria?

Ask the Scout! If he truely understands how to tie a square knot, he should be able to look at one and tell if it is tied correctly. Show him how to push the two sides of the knot together so that the loops move freely of each other (which shows that it IS tied correctly). Or that by pulling on opposite ends of the rope how a granny knot will come apart. When they see how the knots work and know for themselves if it is correct is when they move from rote memorization to understanding.

Actually, I think the problem is they're NOT expensive. Patches, t-shirt, hats are comparably so cheap now it's easy to commemorate anything, so folks do.

If going co-ed means a merger with GSUSA, it's a LOOOOOOONG time off. I would see us merging with Heritage Girls or Campfire or just accepting girls without an organizational merger. I dont' have terribly strong feelings one way or the other, but given my druthers, I'd ruther see Cubs go co-ed and leave Boy Scouting alone. If BSA wants a two-track program for boya and girls ages 11-14, fine. But I think there is a benefit of having single-gender programs for those ages. Almost everything else kids do is co-ed. I think there needs to be space for the boys to be boys and the girls to be girls. There is already so much angst at that age trying to figure our their own identity, an opportunity to do that without the added pressure of boy and girl stuff. I spent a good bit of time discussing the co-ed programs with some of my mates at World jamboree. Of course, to them, it's no big deal. I asked if they don't have problems with the boys and girls doing what boys and girls are want to do from time-to-time, and they said yes, it can be an issue, but no more so than with school or church groups. I suppose the biggest problem I noticed first-had was with co-ed patrols going around jamboree, but at it's core was a boy-girl couple holding hands. That's gotta mess with your patrol dynamics, huh?

I think the best thank you I could get would be a sincere handshake and word of thanks from the Scouts. While we all hope our Scouts are thoughtful enough to do that on their own, we need to acknowledge we are here to teach the boys to be Scout-like -- they don't necessarily show up that way on day one. As the COR, you're in a good position to plant a seed or two for that sort of thank you.

What??? Did I miss a memo? Has "guy" been redefined?

We used to give them nametags to wear with their uniforms. They thought this was cool since only the Web2s and some of the adults had them. We only included their name and a flur-de-lis on the tags so they can use them in the boy scout troop.

Pchadbo -- my problem is with the program. HVAC is just a symptom. Scouterperiod -- I guess they can get the other six required MBs the following week, huh?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

I don't really understand your post, Bart. The Cub Scout Day Camp Adminisration course at National Camp School is generally the same this year has it has been for the past 10 or more years. Those completing the course are dual-certified as camp directors and program directors (although they can only serve in one position or the other). There was a rewrite of the course syllabus implemented last year, but that mainly incorporated policy changes and didn't change much to the overall organization and conduct of the course. One thing new this year is that Webelos Resident Camp Program has been moved to the Resident Camp school. In the past, WRC program directors attended Cub Scout Day Camp school, but had separate break-out sessions for Webelos-specific program stuff. When you say "area director" do you mean within camp, like the "shooting sports director, aquatics director or crafts director? CSDC Aquatics directors or supervisors are required to attend and be certified at NCS. There are local courses for day camp shooting sport range safety officers. But are there NCS courses for the folks leading games or crafts? No. Those topic are covered in detail at the CSDC Administration course. There are round-robin sessions on games, crafts, Cub Scout cooking, nature, skits and songs, etc. The expectation is the camp school-trained directors will deliver that training to their camp staffs.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Maybe I wasn't clear, BP, 'cause I'm in agreement with you. My point is we have created a disconnect between the outdoors and advancement. Even my guys who are clearly into the outdoors programs will jump at a chance to knock off half their Eagle-required MB if we make is cushy enough for them. I'd also love to see us dump all the academic MBs. Problem is in the current environment they would be replaced with Pet Care, Leatherwork and Wood Carving. I'd like to see them replaced with a multi-tiered list of progressive MBs which build on the earlier ones. Earn First Aid as for Star, but then Wilderness First Aid or maybe something closer to real first-responder certification for Life or Eagle. Personal Fitness for Star Scout, Hiking, Backpack or Cycling for Life or Eagle. Part of the problem is that all the MBs are attainable for 12 and 13 year olds. By 16 or 17 the only thing difficult about a merit badge is taking the initiative to buck-down and do it or in keeping up with the 90-day requirements. Which is why these Eagle mills are so popular -- they remove those last two obstacles.

"The kids WANT the outdoors." Not necessarily. I guarantee if this were offered locally (and okayed by the SM) we would have a disappointly large number of our Scouts attend. On the other hand, these are the same kids who went to Philmont last summer and put together a great wilderness survival campout a couple months ago. While they may enjoy the outdoors, the kids have been taught by their parents (and an unfortunatly number of Scout leaders) to look for the "most efficient" route through advancement. They see a bunch of boxes to be checked off and treat it as such. It then becomes a question of how fast can we check the boxes. I want it to be difficult. There, I said it. I want that 30-year-old Eagle to come back and say, "Dang, that was tough. I thought I'd never finish those 90-day merit badges. Mr. Twocubdad held my feet to the fire, but I stuck to it and I EARNED it. Thank you for helping me see that I can reach a goal if I work hard and stay focused." I know I'll get a pile of responses about being an ego-maniacal adult enjoying making things tough on little kids. Well, I'm one of the least egotistical people you'll meet, but I'll own the last half of the statement. Scout advancement is supposed to be a series of surmountable challenges to be overcome. Why do we set up these challenges but then give the boys the cheat codes? Forget the air conditioning. Do you really want your Scouts to earn HALF of the Eagle-required merit badges in one week?

I was teaching at NATIONAL Camp School held at a private, non-scout facility and was wearing a sheath knife as a prop for a session I was teaching. The regional executive responsible for the school approached me and asked me to put the knife away. His reasoning: that SOME councils banned them (apparently someone had complained.) I noted that sheath knives are allowed under the G2SS which holds we should use the best tool for the job. His response: "Yeah, but some council camps ban them." Sheesh. So much for national policy.

The wheels come off the Boy Scout program -- especially advancement -- when the adults start trying to figure out the best way to get from point A to B. Adults, with college educations, years of business experience and the maturity and perspective of living for 40 or 50 years, look at the program and start figuring ways to make it more efficient, productive and easier. We read the requirements and think, "this should be that hard, I could knock that out in a couple hours." Well, yes, you could. But that's beside the point. So instead of asking the boys to reach, we start pulling the limbs down low for them. Instead of asking them to demonstrate some initiative and arranging to meet with a MB counslor themselves, we organize merit badge classes. Of course, if earning one merit badge is good, earning six is even better. After all, we'll stick to the requirements exactly as written, even if they are sitting in a class and having the requirements fed to them. And they're not getting the experience of making an appointment with a counselor, preparing for the meeting and keeping the appointment. This sounds like a very-well done program. I have no doubt there is a demand for this sort of program, but I'm not of a mind that simply because there is a demand for something like this it needs to be met. It's not something we would allow our Scout to attend.

I've been through most permutations of this with day camp, on both sides of the table. The best thing to do is put down the swords and shields and ask "How can I help?" If the original ownership of the items isn't in questions, the honorable thing to do is give it back with a word of thanks for their support over the year. Why they would want it back isn't important. If ownership isn't clear (which is highly likely), I would send a letter or email to the current and former volunteers explaining the committee is conducting an inventory of it's equipment and would like anyone who has "loaned" equipment to the committee over the years to please claim it. Make clear they still have the option to extend their loan or make their donation permanent. Add that after 30 days, all items in the possession of the committee will be deemed to be council property and added to the inventory. Can of worms? You betcha, Skippy. But I think it is owed to the folks who have supported the program and have "provided" the equipment over the years. When faced wit asking for the stuff back, I would bet most will just say, "Oh, keep it." If they want to continue the loan, then put that in writing. If they want it back, let them have it. You need to figure out what standard of proof needs to be provided -- receipts would be nice, or confirmation from another volunteer would be okay by me. But I would be okay with a reasonably detailed story. "The council's junk projector blew up half-way through the first weekend of Wood Badge back when I was course director back in '02. I ran out to Wal-Mart and bought this one. Of course it wasn't in the budget, so I just ate the cost myself." Okay, fine, and thank you for your service. Do you want the 10-year-old projector back, or shall we dump it for you? The bulb is burned out and costs more than a new projector. You should also check with the council finance people. If it were paid for out of council money, there should be records. The goal should be to create a clean, unambiguous inventory. If something has been donated, send a receipt to the donor and process the item as council inventory. If it is on loan, it should be clearly marked ON THE ITEM with the inventory records backing up the loan. Edited to add: I dont' know what the BSA policies for this are. I don't have any background in inventory control or even what the legal standards may be. But my goal would be to apply the Scout Oath and Law to the situation. You are dealing with individuals who have been great supporters of our program and should be treated as such. Maybe they had a falling-out with the council or maybe their sons aged-out they moved on. But this is an opportunity to make their last contact with the council a positive one and maybe even to sooth some ruffled feathers.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Well, since it was my post which spurred this spin-off...... Are we doing them a disservice by not offering all of the available options???? No. There are things we do as Boy Scouts. We've had the local paint ball center offer a discount to the troop. Do we offer that to the PLC just to shoot it down as it is a violation of the G2SS? Why suggest activities which don't support the direction and program of the troop? If an activity is just a baby-sitting function, why commit troop resources? So as an adult leader, do you offer fresh ideas during the troop planning conference??? Absolutely. But offering fresh ideas ideas doesn't mean suggesting every turkey promotion which comes down the pike. One of my roles is to challenge the scouts to improve the program and offer new, better programs than before. A good example from this year is wilderness survival. My guys love it and include a WS campout on the calendar every year. But if I let them default to old habits, they would build shelters and sit in them all weekend. This year I pushed them to develop a survival cooking competiton using food similar to what the may find in the wild. It went over very well. If so, do you limit your new offerings to things you are interested in or eliminate things that are too expensive or you deem as unscout like?????? Three different thing. Limited to my interests? No. A good number of the troop's activities are things for which I have little interest. But I'm not the one deciding. Too expensive? Iffy. I wouldn't limit the possibilities, but if no one else does so, I'll be the one who questions the cost, asks how the costs will be paid and what they will do to make sure everyone has an equitable opportunity to participate. UnScoutlike? If you mean dishonest, unethical or unsafe, then heck no. But if you mean playing video games or hanging out at the mall (or a slumber party on outfield of the ballpark), I may suggest that become a patrol activity or perhaps something more suited to a group of friends doing as a non-troop event. It's always a bit of a head scratcher to me why some guys think everything has to be a troop activity. Want to play paintball or hang out at the mall? Or for that matter do more backpacking or go climbing? GO! Have fun! Why wait on the Scout troop?

A vote with Outdoors! While camping in the outfield meets the technical requirement, it's a waste of my time. On that point, 'fish is right. If time is limited, why waste a weekend with this? We have two or three minor league teams inside an hour of here. They all offer a Scoutnight sometime during the season. We've never considered going.

I don't understand. Are your "newly joined 5th graders" the same guys who are on track to earn AOL in May? How can they do that? I think the answer depends more on the troop's program that the den's. My first thought was to talk to the Scoutmaster, but I see you have that covered. If the troop is running a New Scout Patrol, Webelos trickling in is a problem. It forces the Troop Guides to "start over" every few month and makes is difficult to lead instruction which is what all the boys need. If the troop only has "regular" patrols and new Scouts are incorporated into those patrols, when the Webelos cross over is less of a problem. From my perspective as a Scoutmaster, I would prefer to see the Webelos cross over at least in sizeable groups. Makes for a more rational program for the new boys. I also think having several new scouts together creates more esprit d' corps among them. I came through Scouting when everyone joined the troop the Monday night following their 11th birthday. There was no big deal "crossover" and everyone joined at a different time. Personally, I think having the boys join as a group is much better. I'm a bit bothered by the idea that once a boy earn AOL he's just "marking time" in Webelos. Is the program really that boring? Is my Eagle son now just "marking time" until he turns 18? Sounds like a whole lot of emphasis on advancement and not on doing the fun things Webelos do.

So, Scoutnut, your troop doesn't keep any record of completed requirements, just council advancement reports? How does that work? Does you Scoutmaster and advancement chairman have really remarkable memories or do you rely on the boys to let you know when they think they have the requirements completed? 'Cause if you're willing to tell the boy with the lost book "ohhh, don't worry about it you don't really need the sign-offs" then why don't you apply that to the everyone in the troop? A lost book does not need to be a big, hairy deal. It probably happens twice a year in our troop -- usually the problem is the requirement pages fall out of the handbook. And I guarantee there are at least three "lost" handbooks floating around the Scout house now. But we're helpful and friendly and work with the boy to recreate the lost records. Still, there needs to be some level of accountability on the part of the boy, both for the lost book and for keeping up with his own advancement records routinely. That's not advancement protocol, that's just life. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Short answer is it is the merit badge counselor's call. Neither the committee or scoutmaster get a vote. It would depend on how this campout fits in the overall context of the troop program. Honestly, if your program is running well, Camping MB is a gimmie. The guys should blow through 20 nights camping and pick up the MB as an afterthought. It is typical for out scouts to take Camping their second year at summer camp -- mostly to cover all the classroom stuff. By then they have well above 20 nights. But I can understand a scenario where one scout doesn't participate and is trying to squeeze nights camping to reach 20. In that case I may have a conversation with the counselor and make sure everyone has the information they need to do what is best for the Scout and the program. If meeting the 20 night requirement is a push for the average Scout in the troop, the conversation with the committee needs to be about the troop's outdoor program.

No, you give the kid the benefit of the doubt. Especially if he's had his scoutmaster's conference and the SM and verify the requirements were completed. If your troop's BORs rely exclusively on the Scouts' handbooks, I would expect this would come up fairly often. They should know to pause the board and ask the SM to help verify the requirements. If it is before the SMC, you help the boy recreate his records. If there are any secondary records, like TroopMaster or summer camp advancement reports, use them. Stuff like nights camping and activities are self evident. Many of the folks who originally signed off on the requirements should remember doing so and can sign again. If you get to the point there are requirements you just can't confirm, then the scout needs to repeat them. But if he knows the skill, it should just be a matter of demonstrating it again.