Twocubdad

Sounds like you have a reasonable plan, Jerry. I would only add some sort of meaningful punishment/retraining for the offending boy. Maybe he gets to teach knife safety to the new Scout patrol, or something similar. This kind of behavior is covered in the Guide to Safe Scouting as part of the Scouts' responsibilities. You may want to address it from that respect. As to the other boy's parents, they are going to do what they are going to do. If they want to over react, they will. I would let the rest of the troop leadership know how the situation has been handled in case rumor mill gets hold of it.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Sorry, Acco, I think you and Jerry are wrong. Perhaps you should re-read the book or re-take the training.

Given the quantities involved, I sure hope that the Supply Division is working directly through manufacturers on most items and not paying that wholesale markup. I just bought three dozen very nice hats for our day camp at $8.50 each. Cotton twill, embroidery on the front and back, 6-color I believe. The unit cost included art and set-up charges. I'd guess a similar logo hat at a Wal-Mart would sell in the $15-20 range. Now if I cut the quality of the hat, reduce the embroidery to three colors in one location and let a contract directly with a manufacturer for 100,000 hats, I'm guessing we can come substantially off the $8.50 price. Regardless, I don't think the $11.50 price of the Cub hats is unreasonable for a decent hat. But the current hats are of remarkably poor quality. Last year, mid-way through his Bear year, we had to buy my older son a new hat because the old one just flat-out fell apart. I don't know that I've ever had a hat of any kind fall apart before it became too gross and dirty to wear. And I'm a hat guy, I usually wear a hat and go through quite a few of them.

I seem to recall that last year's dates weren't published until sometime toward the end of the year. However I was able to call regional and have my name put on the mailing list. That way I got my own packet and didn't have to wait for it to come through the council. At least that's how it worked around here.

Of course homosexuality isn't a religion. But a tolerance for and the inclusion of homosexuals may be a religious belief of some faiths. Given BSA's very broad view of religions principles, why do we judge some faiths on that one belief? As you wrote, Bob, "the only reason the Wiccan religious awards are not recognized by the BSA ... is their insistance to include homosexual members." Heck, a few votes in the other direction (okay, a few hundred-thousand votes) and the Presbyterians could be in that same catagory. I'm with you on the issue of approving these groups as chartered partners. Any group which refuses to agree to any BSA policy should not be a CO. But given the breadth of the statement on religious principles, given the fact that earning a religious emblem is between a boy and his "church," and given that BSA pointedly states that religious emblems are not a Scout program and no endorsment is inferred, it is hypocritical to sanction some faiths and exclude others. Especially when it is based on a peripheral issue such as compliance with membership policies. It does not show a reverence toward those faiths, as required by the Scout Law. No offense taken, kwc. Growing up, my old Presbyterian minister used to refer to the congregation "God's Frozen People" -- from the pulpit!

How does BSA as an organization show respect for different faiths when if denies full inclusion of a faith based on it's stance on the homosexuality issue? In all the world of foreign/strange/nutty religions (at least in our western Judeo-Christian view), why is homosexuality a litmus test for a faith to be included in the religious emblem program? Separate membership policies and the statement of religious principles for a moment. In otherwords, let's keep in mind that there is a difference between approving an organization as a chartered partner and honoring a religious emblem to an individual Scout. BSA has a legitimate interest in seeing that the organizations it works with will support it's membership policies. But that's very different from telling a Wiccan or Unitarian boy his faith isn't recognized by BSA because of what is at essence a theological issue -- or worse yet, a political issue. And to those of you with little or no sense of humor when it comes to religious matters: PHHHHHUUUUUUTTTTTTTTT! If you want religious jokes, I can (and often do) tell Presbyterian jokes for hours on end. And don't even get me started on the Baptists or Catholics. Lighten up. Off for a few days. Everyone have a happy and safe Independence Day. Don't forget to put out your flag.

I'm not sure what the point of the article is, except to throw red meat to the faithful. People who believe as the author does are nodding in agreement. Those who see things differently are shaking their heads no. I can't imagine that this article is going to change anyone's mind.

From a marketing standpoint, that probably too broad an approach for camp, but it's a heck of a good idea for round up! It would be nice if national could put together a roundup trailer for distribution to the councils. Politics being what they are, I bet national going to the movie distributors would be a hard sell, but local Scouters working with local theater managers may be more effective.

Earmonn -- I know a few Druids you can contact. Actually, they are Reformed Druids. Their branch (get it? "branch") is allowed to worship bushes, not just trees. Thank you, thank you, we'll be here all weekend. And remember to tip your waitress.

And the money we could save on paper cups! Watched a kid at a pack campout this spring stand in front of the water jug and drink four cups of water -- each with a new paper cup. All four wound up wadded up on the ground in front of the trash can (but not for long.) At day camp it seems like most of the boys this year carried canteens or plastic bottles, even though we have water at every activity station. I know it has to be a hassle having that hanging around your neck all day. And we always end up with a huge pile of them in the lost and found. I usually carry a stainless camp cup clipped to my belt. It's similar to the stainless BSA cup with the wire handle, but mine is about a full cup in size. Fits nicely on a small camp stove, too. They only about $4 at WalMart in the camping section. I've thought about asking the manager here if he can get me a deal on 500 of them.

Plus they're so dang cheap. Even a fancy patch with 7 or 8 colors is only about a buck in quantity. And I do think they're popular with the boys. We've even started getting stock patches to give out at our pack events. I have heard some mom's complain about the number of t-shirts. But the thought there is that by the time they've been a couple years, they have a drawer full. No one has suggested getting rid of the premimum, rather having something different such as a hat. I'm hesitant to do hats for Cubs, though, since they are supposed to wear only their official Cub hat. We looked into camp cups, something sturdy (preferably metal) with a handle which will clip to your belt. Unfortunately, all the cups we found with clip handles were three times the cost of a t-shirt. Hey Bob White -- you're in that business, see what you can come up with.

T-shirts serve an important function of providing quick and easy identification of who belongs in camp and who doesn't. We use different colors for Scouts and leaders. How long does your camp last? To me, $20 seems very reasonable -- make that dang cheap! Our camp is four days for Cubs, three days and a family overnighter for Webelos. Cost is $75. By far, the bulk of our money goes to programming. We offer discounts to the kids of volunteers and charge a nominal fee for the kids in the tot program. We get no support from the Council, and in fact pay a percentage of our gross to the council.

I think there is a rule against pink elephants, too. At least in front of the boys.

One contact, regardless of what it is, isn't going to be enough. We get our largest numbers of Cubs (and adult volunteers) from the packs with the leaders push camp over and over throughout the registration period. Unfortunately, there are a few units whose leaders don't attend Roundtable, don't get the information to the families and don't promote camp. The boys in these units are the ones who I feel like we are missing. A direct mailing to them may get around the lack of involvement by their pack leadership. But I certainly wouldn't try to replace the inter-pack promotions with a mailing. On the otherhand, I hear what you are saying about people who "didn't get the memo." All four of them? Being a camp director was a real eye-opener. I was amazing to me how many parents just don't pay attention to the stuff we send out. We had four or five Scouts who went to last year's camp location. We had one family who waited two hours at their CO for the bus to come (that Pack hasn't provided a bus in two years). Another kid showed up with no registration. His mom tried to tell us that her Pack had "lost" it, but when we pressed her on it, she whipped out a completed application and check. If she thought her son was properly registered, why did she have another set of forms with her? It makes me wonder how some people dress themselves in the morning!

We've done many of the old standbys over the years. This year we did "The Clans of Scotland" as a theme. We have a great Scottish society in the area which holds a huge highland games every year and they provided us a lot of resources. Their support was one of the reasons we chose the theme. In the past, we've not done much marketing as we've been maxed-out for the facility we've used. This year we were at a new facility and have much more room, so we may do more marketing this year. In the past everything has gone to the pack leaders via the Jan. or Feb. roundtable. We mail packets to packs not in attendance. Still, it is highly dependent on the pack leaders to promote and register the boys, although there are a few things we can do to juice that process. If I were going to make any big improvement in promotions it would be to mail the registration packet directly to the Cub families. Our council does a big, glossy, full-color camp promotion mailing to everyone in the council in late winter. It is heavily weighted toward Boy Scout summer camp and, in my opinion, not very effective as a marketing tool for the day camps. Each district day camp gets one paragraph on the back. If we were just given the postage they spend on mailing that brochure to our Cubs, we could send the actual registration packet and a promotional piece targeting the Cubs and day camp. I think that would be more effective and less expensive than the fancy flyer the council produces.

Key West rates two frownie faces?!?! Dude, we gotta talk! Have a conch fritter for me -- not the little stringy things they serve the touristas, but the real deal that looks like a big piece of fried swiss cheese. It's a few years before I can tell you all the other places in Key West hit. Congrats on being tapped out -- er, called out. When do you do your Ordeal? Let us know. You should really look forward to it.

I think there is a policy against that.

My mom is a remarkable seamstress, so I've picked up more sewing by osmosis than most people ever learn. I, too, know what pinking shears are for. I'm also the one who cut all the pieces for our den flag on the bias so they will lay flat. Sewing and other domestic skills would be a good addition to the Scouting arsenal. Whether it relates to a hobby or an exercise in character building doesn't matter. This year I had my Webelos den make their own red felt patch vests. I made a pattern and market it on the felt with tailor's chalk (yes, I know what that is, too). The boys cut the pattern, pinned the shoulder seams so that it fit them and then sewed the seams. Sure, it was only two, three-inch straight seams, but it was a great sewing project. I was a bit worried that the boys would think it a sissy project, but they really got into it and were proud that they had made something the can wear. I'm surprised how many of the guys still wear their vests to pack meetings. I was also surprised how many of the parents at the meeting were clueless as to how to sew, moms and dads alike. Most could hardly thread the needle. I got textiles MB way back when, but don't remember much about it other than it was manufacturing oriented. Textiles is (or was)a big industry in our area so it wasn't an uncommon MB. At one time cooking was an Eagle-required MB. We always earned the two together at summer camp. I believe it was dropped from the required list in the 1973 cultural revolution . Camping was also dropped then, but was put back on the required list a few years later.

So which groups do you want to take off the donor list and what criteria are you using for removing them? What does an organization have to do or say to contradict BSA values? Would this apply to chartered organizations which provide in-kind support or only cash contributions?

"Head Banging" needs it's own catagory!

No experience with the BSA kits (except for a couple I carved at camp 30 years ago), but while Bears my den carved slides from "kits" I roughed out on the band saw. We made either a boot or an arrow head. I cut the basic shape of both from soft, 3/4-inch white pine on the band saw. All the boys had to do was round over the square edges and give some definition to the sole of the shoe or leave the appearance of chips in the arrow head. One thing I did which was really helpful was to leave a long "handle" on both. I left a 3- to 4-inch stick attached to the top of the boot or the bottom of the arrow head. This gave the boys a place to hold the piece while keeping their hand back from the knife blade. The last step of the project was to cut the handle off the slide with a small craft saw. After sanding both were stained and finished with poly. Some of the boys used a marker to blacken the sole of the boot and to draw the laces. We hot glued a piece of 1/2-inch plastic pipe to the back for the slide. If you scratch the pipe with sandpaper, the glue bites better.

"Yes, if we both show up in our respective uniforms we are both properly uniformed, but that does not make our uniforms the same." Huh?!?! I didn't say respective uniforms, I said identical uniforms. Let me draw a picture: Bob White and Twocubdad are standing side-by-side, debating some arcane point of BSA policy. Both are wearing basic field uniforms -- identical official socks, pants, belts and shirts. The only difference between the two uniforms are the shoulder tabs, position patches, council strips, unit numerals and whatever personal insignia (i.e., square knots, activity patches, etc.) we choose to wear. So which one of us is not properly uniformed for our position? How can you say these two leaders don't "look anything alike"? All the other things you mention are accessories -- nonessential, supplementary or optional items that are still desirable and which contribute to an effect. Even the yellow and blue ladies uniform is an option. A female Cub Scouter could (and most do) properly wear the field uniform. (Off point, but I don't see how much longer national can keep supplying the yellow uniforms due to lack of volume. I only know of three ladies in our entire Council who still wear them, and they are older ladies who have worn them since they were the only option for women.) "Yes, in Cub Scouts you have the option as to whether or not you wear a neckerchief, bolo or no neckwear, but you do not have the open option of which neckerchief you can wear like you do in Boy Scouts." So according to your interpretation of the Insignia Guide, it is impermissible for me to wear the National Camp School neckerchief I got at CUB SCOUT day camp school? Why did the guys from regional even offer those neckerchief to a group comprised entirely of Cub Scouters? What about to an OA event? If a Cub Scouter/OA member goes to a conclave do the rules forbid him from wearing the conclave neckerchief he is given? How about a NESA neckerchief at an Eagle COH?

The information in the IG regarding headgear is very vague and doesn't mention any of the Cub Scout hats. It deals primarily with when and how to wear hats. The section on neckerchief says the Cub Scout leaders MAY wear the blue and gold leaders' neckerchief. In fairness, the word "may" is omitted from the line which says that Webelos leaders wear a neckerchief similar to the Webelos Scouts. However, page 9 includes the bolo tie as an option for Cub Scouters, so it only makes sense that the Webelos leader neckerchief is optional too. Interestingly, I don't find the yellow female Cub Scouter blouse mentioned anywhere in the IG (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I believe the women Cub Scouters have the option of wearing that or the tan/olive uniform. I see nothing in the IG which creates a separate Cub leader uniform. Honestly, there is almost nothing in the Cub section regarding adult uniforming, save what I have quoted above and two other sections on position patches and leader recognition. So as I said before, EXCEPT FOR PERSONAL OPTIONS, aren't all adult uniforms basically the same? If you and I show up in identical uniforms -- except for your red shoulder tabs Scoutmaster position patch and my blue tabs and Cub Committee Chairman patch, no hats, no neckerchiefs -- are we not both properly uniformed?

Before we start the serious hair splitting, is it not a basic principle that all adult leader uniforms are essentially the same? Isn't the primary difference supposed to be the color of shoulder tabs? Aren't hats and neckerchiefs supposed to be a personal choice? It's an option whether you wear them at all.

Eamonn, can you please provide us with a reference for the rule regarding Cub Scouters being prohibited from wearing the campaign hat? I find very little in the Insignia Guide regarding headgear.