Twocubdad

Been there, done that. Had exactly the same conversation with the Scout you did, Matt. Tears and all. Swore he'd never do it again. Parents hired an attorney and got him off. His big "punishment" was to pay his attorney's fees. Of course, he couldn't get a job without transportation, so dad bought him a new car.

Since earning Eagle he has been busted twice more.

The deal breaker here is bringing the weed to summer camp and offering it to other Scouts. That's a deal breaker. He'd be out of the troop. You need to consider the other Scouts and the trust their parents place in you.

Hugh McCall, former CEO of Bank of America, was noted for saying "there is no such thing as breaking even. Either you're making money or losing it."

This is silly. Of course it's not a fundraiser. Your COR doesn't have enough to do.

I disagree. At best I think it is in poor taste. it is trading on the name and good will of BSA for personal political gain.

A few years ago a one of our troop parents was running for office when his son earned Eagle. The parent plastered all over Facebook photos me presenting the award to his son with he and his wife looking on. Okay, so far, lots of proud parents do. But a few weeks later I saw the same photo of myself popping up in the column of paid promotions. Not cool. Using someone's likeness in a paid photo without their consent is highly inappropriate. Ditto for using trademarked materials (BSA uniforms, etc.)

No, I didn't say anything. Not worth the BS which would have ensued.

That moron was from SOUTH Carolina. He's Packsaddle's problem, not ours.

This is part of the culture of your troop. Every troop has on and every troop is different. One may suppose a troop chartered on a military base may have a heightened sense of Duty to Country. A troop with a fire department or rescue squad may be quite gung-ho about first aid.

My religious beliefs are private. I rarely share them and certainly don't impose them on others, particularly the Scouts I serve. But we do encourage Duty to God in the troop, sticking to BSA's Declaration of Religious Principals. We offer thanks before each meal. We encourage Scouts to participate in the religious emblem program for their faith and encourage our CO and other churches to conduct them. During SM conferences I ask boys how they do their duty to God. I'll ask if they are a member of a church and if so what that church asks of them. (Weekly services, Bible reading, tithing, etc.) If they are not a member of a church I'll ask how their family demonstrates reverence. For the older Scouts I may ask how the reconcile the requirement to be respectful of other religions when they don't believe in those faiths.

No right or wrong answers (and sometimes not much answer at all), but only trying to get the boys to think about what Duty to God means.

Exhaustion, not sleeping, bouts of uneasiness, anger, frustration and/or crying .... shoot, that describes about 90% of the kids at summer camp.

This sounds like a great Roundtable presentation but I don't see spending a day of training with it.

Mandatory photo? Exactly how do they enforce that? I'm assuming this is a for-profit deal like school photos.

Our camp takes a troop photo at check-in then GIVES us a cd with a copy of the photo. Of course while the camp staffer is taking it, we have a half-dozen parents either side of him taking their own.

Who wants to bet that at the end of the money trail the council is getting a cut. Tell them to take their contract and pound sand.

I tell folks who have a Rockwellian ideal of all Scouts that they are thinking of the finished product -- I'm working with raw materials.

Vinney -- that's not how we operate. We're going to come to a consensus. If my attitude were no way, no how, no time will he ever darken our door again, I'm sure the CC would back me up. I said I wouldn't object to expulsion, but neither am I demanding it.

Where to start......

I have neither the time nor inclination to write the 10,000 word post this needs, but here the Readers' Digest version:

I met with the Scout late Saturday afternoon for his SM conference. After the prelims, we got around to Scout Spirit. I asked him to run through the Scout Law and tell me how he live the 12 points in his everyday life. Starting with Trustworthy, he used the example of being on a sports team that his teammates had to trust that he could cover his position, handle the ball when it was passed to him and pass it back to the other players.

"In other words," I said, "they trust you to do your job."

"Yeah, exactly," he said.

"So can the new Scouts trust you to do your job as Troop Guide when you don't show up for campouts?"

Long silence.

So it goes through a couple more examples of how he has failed to live up to the Oath and Law with me pointing out a couple more issues -- "Was it Friendly when you...." I was careful not to pile on and I thought he understood my point. We had a good conversation about the specifics and transitioned into a discussion of what is expected. Mainly that he begin to consider the feelings and needs of those around him, especially the new Scouts in his charge. That he needs to be a team player. When a leader, youth or adult, assigns a task to him it is his obligation to complete it without grumbling or causing problems. I told him I would not sign off on his Scout Spirit requirement. He needs to show me he can treat others according to the Scout Law. Summer camp will be his big opportunity to do that as Troop Guide. I expect him to spend time with the new Scouts. If one is homesick, doesn't feel well or can't find a merit badge class, he needs to know it and help that Scout. If that means he has to take time away from hanging with his friends or miss a pickup soccer game, well, that's the job description. In other words, he needs to be a servant leader putting the needs of others above his own.

Fast forward to Sunday morning. The patrols are breaking camp and beginning to bring their gear to the troop trailer. The SPL finds me and tells me he's done dealing with this Scout. The Scout had spent the morning riding a new Scout and bullying him. The two were supposed to be washing dishes together. The new Scout couldn't keep up so this kid would wash the dishes and throw them at the other boy. The SPL said when he walked up, he could hear the younger Scout yelling at him to stop. When the younger guy saw the SPL, he went to him and asked him to make the other guy stop.

(Heavy sigh)

So we had a quick do-over on the Scoutmasters Conference. This one was most decidedly one sided, without any ambiguity and somewhat higher volume. Upon returning to the CO, I also met with his parents. His mother's comment was, "So he's showing the same disrespect to other people he shows me" which should tell you something. My CC is out of town, so we have not yet finalized a formal response. I'm leaning toward long-term suspension with a significant probation. I would not object to expulsion, but I don't see the CC going along with that.

So McGrath's claim that he only wanted to be a Scoutmaster and wasn't trying to make a political statement is out the window, huh?

How do you use RR in a body which isn't supposed to take votes? Unit committees aren't legislative bodies but rather meetings of people with different responsibilities coming together so report on their actions and coordinate common projects.

I was in the state student legislature in for three years of college and know my way around RR. Like Q, I've see people use the rules to tie meetings in knots. RR isn't a silver bullet to fix that.

KDD --Because he circled back around and told me he would be attending the campout, but would be arriving late. Didn't mention he would be nearly 24 hours late and would leave four hours later. The kid is good.

Keep in mind that except for the two situations related to bullying, the other situations have taken place during the past month. I feel like we've done a good job of bring these issues up to him in real time. But now it's time to have a formal conversation looking at the cumulative situation. That would be happening one way or another. It is coincidental he requested a SMC this weekend. And yes, I'm aware SM conferences can be called for non-advancement reasons. I am also aware that each of the conversations I outlined could be considered "conferences" in according to BSA definitions.

OX-Eagle -- not surprisingly, I don't think we are an Eagle machine. Our program has many strengths and weaknesses, but that's not one of our weaknesses. That we are holding this kid's feet to the fire should be an indication of that. The purpose of this thread isn't WETHER we should hold him accountable, but HOW that conversation should go. Frankly, I'm looking for you guys to talk me down off the ledge. My inclination is to stomp on him with both feet. I'm looking for cooler heads to help me craft a conversation which will be positive and move us toward the ultimate goal of turning this kid in the right direction.

Oh we've had multiple "conferences" over the past year or two. The bullying (which would take volumes to drill into) resulted in several conferences with him, his running mates and all the parents. The result was the three mates were split up into three patrols. (Which has had marvelous results for for one of the three.) When he told me he couldn't attend the second of the two campouts as Troop Guide, I did tell him I we would find a permanent replacement. That resulted in his dad driving two hours to bring him to the campout, staying a total of four hours then dad driving home shortly after dinner. During the service project he was off doing his own thing. I suggested instead of working on his own stuff, he lead by example and help the rest of the scouts with the actual service project. This resulted in him wandering back to his campsite for a nap.

It's not that his behavior has gone unnoticed or uncorrected, rather there have been no serious consequences involved.

OBTW, the kid is a great athlete but I've had other parents tell me he behaves exactly the same on sports teams and shows the same disrespect to coaches and other players. And his parents are just as oblivious there, too.

I don't have different expectations for people whether they have ever been a Scout or not. I expect people to live by the Ideals of Scouting whether or not they have accepted them or not or even heard of them or not. I just think that's how people should behave. Consequently dropping out of Scouting doesn't change those expectations.

I do think he enjoys Scouts -- but perhaps for the wrong reason. I think we provide him an audience and/or new set of victims for his crap and a perfect environment for his Eddie Haskel modus operandi. But the past few months being troop guide has exposed his behaving one way with his patrol and another with adults around. We keep the new Scout patrols adjacent to the adult camp instead of the 300+ feet for the other patrols. Consequently, I've had more time to observe his behavior (considering his lack of attendance on campouts.)

I think it is a typical assumption that he has a lot of underlying insecurities, but don't know. This kid has every advantage in life -- fairly intelligent, outgoing, good looking, doting affluent parents who think he hung the moon.... But the bottom line is he's a jerk. Very immature and incredibly narcissistic.

Q I like your thought of explaining what I want to see in a First Class Scout. The focus will be on servant leadership, helping other people at all times and the three-quarters of the Scout Law he doesn't get.

And no, he's not going to listen. I do think declining his advancement could get his attention. It may be the first time anyone has ever told the boy no.

I'm preparing for a Come to Jesus meeting with one of my First Class Scouts. Here is his record of achievement over the past year:

• He defines insolence. He flatly refuses even simple requests from youth and adult leaders alike. On a recently backpacking trip he refused the PLs request for him to get the stove he was carrying and get water boiling for a meal. He was too busy repacking his personal gear to help.
  
• During a service project on another campout he went back to the campsite for a nap instead of participating on the project. When the SPL tracked him down and asked him to help out he refused to return to the service project.
  
• He's a bully. He is mostly responsible for at least one Scout leaving the troop.
  
• Last year one Scout in the troop gave a rather impassioned speech asking the boys to please be more considerate of one of the new Scouts who was having a hard time adjusting to summer camp. This kid made jokes through the entire talk including a rather loud comment "you should have seen what we did to (the scout who left the troop.)
  
• On another trip he and a buddy were making pests of themselves throwing a ball back and forth across the campfire. After his PL repeatedly asked them to stop, this kid "threw the ball in his tent", but some how "missed" the tent and hit another kid in the crotch.
  
• He has done a poor job with his POR as Troop Guide. Of the two campouts since becoming TG, he has been in attendance four hours and yet to spend a night. He supervised the new Scouts cooking one meal and spent most of that time sitting on the picnic table with his back to the boys who were doing the cooking. I'm interested to hear how he has four months of service in the POR which began March 1.
  

Generally the boy is very immature compared to his peers and is extremely self-centered. Everything is all about him.

Clearly, I'm not going to sign-off on his Scout spirit requirement and probably not on his POR.

So my question is how does this conversation go? I can pretty clearly document his failings, but I'm not sure that will be beneficial. (For one, I'm sure he will try to explain away each of them.) But I don't really think he will get the big-picture message that he needs to start considering there are people in the world besides himself. How do you explain compassion and empathy to someone who has none?

BSA policy is not law. It doesn't matter what state you're in. Go back and read Beavah's post from 2011. That pretty much covers it. It isn't our business who a parent designates as their child's guardian for an activity.

If you interpret BSA's use of the word "guardian" to be "the person to who a parent entrust their child" you'll do fine.

Simple.

Scout Spirit is living by the Scout Oath and Law.

We define leadership for our Boy Scouts as "motivating others to work toward a common vision." Your job as a leader is, 1) to have a vision for where you want the pack to be; 2) effectively communicate that vision to others; and, 3) motivate them to work towards it.

Say your ultimate goal is to have a program which is fun for the kids and easy on the parents, consequently increasing participation and enthusiasm for both. That means your program needs to be consistent and dependable so the boys look forward to the programs and the parents can easily plan on them. The two keys to that is having annual calendar so the parents can make plans well in advance. Pack meetings are the first Monday of every month. The pack goes camping the first weekend in October and April. Pinewood Derby is in November and Blue and Gold is in February. Cub Scout day camp is in June and Webelos Resident camp in late July. To keep the boys interested all year, we're going to follow the recommended plan of having one summertime pack activity per month through the summer. They're still the first Monday of the month. Etc., etc. etc.

This lays out a vision for the pack which is both reasonable and something most everyone should want to buy into. You the have an actionable plan for meeting that goal so folks can see the path toward reaching the goal. But if your plan and you come across as another bureaucrat ginning up more work for everyone, it will fail. But if you sell your vision as part of an overall plan which will be both more fun for the Scouts and easier for the parents to plan around, who wouldn't want to do it?

It's worth a couple phone calls, but keep in mind the Scout needs to continue working toward Eagle. He should start his 6-month Eagle POR today, for example, and not wait for some ruling from council which could take months.

Annual dues are $95. Summer camp and food for monthly camping is not included. Food cost vary depending on patrol menu and is all handled within each patrol.

We do charge a one-time equipment fee for new members of $125 which includes all patrol gear -- tents, stoves, cook gear, fly, etc. A few years ago most of our troop gear was pretty old and in need of replacement. Our main troop fundraiser was producing less and less money. We went to the Scouts and parents and asked for ideas for fundraising. Everyone said "how much do we make the checks for?" The answer was $125. Now, as a matter of fairness, we continue to collect the $125 but keep it in a separate equipment fund to replace gear as needed.

Some of our Scouts participate in the council's camp card sales to raise money for Eagle projects, high-adventure trips, jamboree or summer camp, but few do.

We do no fundraising for the benefit of the troop however we are very fortunate to have several parents working for large corporations which have grant programs which match parents' volunteer hours with cash payments to the troop.

Yep. I hear that, too. Most teenage boys would probably prefer menus consisting of chips and Red Bull, that the adults do all the cooking and cleaning for them and to replace campouts with overnight video tournaments. If all you are interested is raw membership numbers, go for it. I've always said my preference would be to have a troop of five scouts who really wanted to be in a high quality, challenging program. If when those five age out that means folding the troop flag, putting out the fire and calling it a day, so be it. I don't ascribe to the idea we have to do anything and everything just to get boys in the program.

Good for you! That's the way the program should work. If more counselors and parents operated this way the Scouts would get much more out of the program.

I don't have a problem with Scouts using the worksheets as an internal means or organizing their work -- sort of an expanded list of requirements with room for making notes. When either the Scout or counselor looks at completing the worksheet as completing the badge is when I begin to have an issue.

I'm assuming this is one of those "annual report" things which usually features the youth.