blw2

12 hours ago, MattR said:

My idea was form the patrols for the event a month before the event. As soon as one camput ends the scouts should know their schedule well enough to decide if they can go on the next. This gives enough time to coalesce around the tasks that need to be done. I really dislike when the patrols start deciding the meeting before the campout. There's no way the new members will have had time to prepare for anything other than doing the usual meals, not to mention whatever the main event is at the campout. Then everyone wonders why there's no teamwork.

My son's troop sorta did this.... it wouldn't really be a calendar month, but basically they'd form for the trip.... decide menu and duties for the trip

I think that this way of thinking complete misses what a patrol is supposed to be....misses the point of the patrol method.

I saw very little if any patrol spirit, no energy or excitement at all.

12 hours ago, DuctTape said:

"Form the patrols for the event..." confuses me.  I think of it as the patrol forming the events. I find most ad hoc patrol issues arise when events are planned as a troop instead of as a patrol. If the patrol is the primary unit, then all decisions, events, planning arise from that primary unit. When the troop is tbe primary unit which makes tbe decisions, plans the events it is no wonder the patrols break down. In essence the troop is trying to operate as a giant patrol ineffectively.

well said!

again, our troop functioned as if the troop was the core unit.  I don't think anyone really understood that, but it was the reality.  Events were all planned around patrols,  menus and such...but everything was done as a troop.  the groups of friends that were in different patrols would naturally form up as friends whenever possible.  I thought the problem was rather obvious once you looked at it.

I'd suggest this, if you haven't already read it.

http://scoutmastercg.com/far-good-new-scoutmasters-story/

Short book, easy read.  Fiction based on a 30 year scoutmaster (or something like that)

It's really more about the SM, but I think he did a great job outlining a good way for the relationship to exist between two of the "Key Three".  Important to support the SM, but equally important to have a SM that supports the CC and shares a similar vision.

I was troop CC for a very short time, at the request of the then SM.  At that point I knew so little about troops and patrol method that it was really a laugh when I think about it now.  I went at it just trying to lead an organized committee and to support the SM. 

Now I realize that the CC could play such a key role in shaping a troop, so I think it is imperative...as in seriously a big deal important.... for a CC to understand the patrol method (and there is, I think, a lot of misunderstanding out there about what it means) and to have a vision for the troop.

3 hours ago, MattHiggins said:

If it's in advance, fine. But, ....

old thread so I'm sorry if I've already written this...b I disagree with this idea.... I think it's never fine

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

The best solution for patrols is a group of boys so tight and proud of their identity that they would more than happily arrive at camp as a "patrol of one" if need be, for the sake of his buddies. Inculcating that vision is truly challenging. But, it's fun when you see it happen.

Exactly!!!

well I've never actually seen it happen so I can't confirm it's fun to see, but "Exactly" to the first part of what you said!!!  makes total sense!

53 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

we never saw much use or traffic: How were you measuring traffic?

well, a composite of a lot of things really that lead to a "gut-feel read" on the situations

at some points along this trail, I actually looked at web site statistics reports, and most recently the troop using troopwebhost you could see who was logging in and when.

also know from talking to folks that said they never looked at it.... other folks letting me know that they don't have access...long after access was given to them....seeing zero uploads or downloads...almost never receiving online payments through the site tools....oh and then the empirical observation of how many folks would email outside of the web site tools....

With the exception of a small core of active folks, ours wasn't the most energetic crowd of parents and scouts...

4 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Only once a year photo update? I'd suggest you need to go for more than that.

We are moving to, if we're not already at, a world where if an organisation is not on the internet they may as well not exist. You want to find info on something or someone and the internet is the go to source. And your troop website is the first thing a prospective member or their parents or a potential adult volunteer will see. So yes keep it simple, make everything easy to find the important information (with THE most important being how to get in touch and join or volunteer) but also make it look fun and positive. Lots of photos of the most recent events. And I mean camps, high adventure, action packed stuff. Not courts of honour or stiff photos in uniform. And I don't think once a year cuts it.

well, yes, I agree for most things, gotta be on the web.  and I agree with the keep it simple with the most important thing of how to get in touch

I only wrote once a year, really meaning keep it simple and basic, because I have never gotten the feeling that too many people actually look at the site and use it.  Kinda echos what others said here.  Maybe it's more unit specific,  some groups might use it way more than I saw in my experiences.  In the pack, and again in the troop we maintained some web presence.  It was a lot of work to keep current and we never saw much use or traffic.  In the pack, one of the many hats I took upon myself to pick up to wear was sort of un-official den and pack photographer.  I tried several different ways of posting and sharing photos, tried to get others to share and post their photos too...and folks could download my photos if there was any they wanted to keep.  It was huge work and really was very underutilized.  Nobody else posted anything and very few folks downloaded stuff

I just see it mostly as a recruiting tool, like a brochure.  Something current enough so it doesn't seem like the troop is dead....only high adventure pics clearly from 4 years ago doesn't look good, old generic indoor meeting pics even worse.... but if it's only looked at occasionally by a prospective scout or parent then I don't see a lot of need in huge weekly or even monthly updates.  When I looked at prospective troop sites as a parent, I wanted to get a feel for the types of things they did, say over the course of last year...AND I wanted to get a basic understanding of the adults (SM and such)...a bio page....and of course contact info.

I never thought about this before, but thinking back, in our 5 years through my son's pack...I want to say that I was the only one in any of the dens that ever stepped up as an ADL.

I tried to encourage it for other dens, and for son's den when I was recruited away for packwide positions, but I can't think of a single other one....

Is that normal?

yeah, if it were up to me, I think it might be worth keeping a very basic web site updated.....

just frequently enough so that the correct SM and other primary contacts/bios can be posted....maybe once a year photo update just to show some cool things getting done....just enough for the new prospective parents mostly to get a feel for the troop.

....really nothing more than a current brochure type thing....

and that's a might/maybe kinda thing

I think it's really the members only thing for the treasurer, troop member address book, and the live calendar are the only thing worthy of maintaining.

I totally agree.  When I was Cub Master, I ALWAYS tried to advocate for the den Leaders.  I always looked at them as having the hardest job in the pack.  I frequently would try to ask if they needed anything, look for ways to help them, tried really hard to recruit an advancement chair person to take that chore off their backs, and so on.  Still I had a few that just skated by doing the absolute minimum, with infrequent meetings, poor attendance, etc... but I was still thankful for them.  It was hard...no nearly impossible to recruit help in my pack at the time.  We had den leaders but not much else.

4 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I don’t think many people would think “let’s try to find a Boy Scout Troop website”, let’s admit it, not many troops have websites. I feel like many troops don’t utilize this position because it is not needed.

That's a very interesting take on it I think....   I agree that the position, and several others like it, aren't used because they aren't needed.

I think the marketing angle, or I suppose more correctly the recruiting angle is only a small part of the web site.  As a parent, i certainly did try to search out web sites for prospective units for my kid....as a way to try to get a read on the unit, types of things they do, hopefully for a biography of the adult scouters involved, etc.... but that's only such a small part of the web site....

but form a youth perspective if that's all the web site is, then that says something for sure.

I'd agree that folks don't generally use things like web sites for the unit.

They don't go there to keep up with announcements and such

they don't go there for communication all that much

It makes for an opportunity for a historian to "scrapbook" and record adventures and history, but really nobody looks ta that kind of stuff often...

We used troopwebhost, and folks did log in to make payments with the paypal link some, but not really all that often... I found having the calendar feature, that would sync over to my google account very useful, but otherwise I'd agree that web site functions aren't really used by people....

On 3/12/2018 at 10:23 AM, Eagledad said:

 I learned over the years that the most successful packs attend to the needs of the parents first, then their sons. So, build an adult friendly pack, and you will have a cub friendly program. The opposite is true for Troops.

another really great point.....

on the other hand though,  a huge part of making it adult friendly is making the boys want to come.  No parent wants to drag their kid out of the house to do something that neither really wants to do....

On 3/12/2018 at 10:23 AM, Eagledad said:

Most of the time Troop age scouts feel intimidated by adults asking why they are dropping out, so I always talked with parents as well. Parents know what's going on and tend to give a more completed explanation. I also would ask my sons or scouts who knew them well.

good point... I should have qualified in my example, 98% of the time I was talking to parents either face to face or by email or similar.  I would have loved to talk with the scout....but after they are gone that's often not practical.

I'm reminded of something that wasn't a direct answer to this question, but that certainly could bridge nicely.... and could be changed slightly to apply to all sorts of POR's

I had to search for it....

http://scoutmastercg.com/fifteen-minute-patrol-leader-training/

I like the 15 minutes..... or I'd for some POR's actually add in all CAPS. "OR LESS"

and I like what he wrote about not calling it training at all.... don't even look at it as training because that alone changes the focus or approach....

While searching for that, I found these other references that might help too....

http://scoutmastercg.com/youth-leader-training/

http://scoutmastercg.com/training-is-doing/

I actually thought there was a podcast on his 15 minute PL discussion too, but I can't put my finger on it just now....

On 3/9/2018 at 4:10 PM, perdidochas said:

I can't imagine a patrol sized tent trying to sleep.  

yeah, that's kinda my point.... and they don't change their socks, either....

I ran a come and go regatta once for a pack meeting.... bought swimming pool noodles and precut pieces.  Brought those in along with sticks for masts and foam sheets for sails.... some decorating supplies..... gave the boys some period of time....10-15 minutes maybe to build their boats

no rules

nobody timing them, get in line when you're ready and go

no elimination or formal winners

just get in line and race..... as many times as they wanted, against whoever they wanted.... asked a DL to be the finish line judge at each set of gutters, mainly just to cheer them on and keep things moving

Good time I think, based on the sound levels

On 3/10/2018 at 4:29 PM, ItsBrian said:

I see where scouting can be expensive. Summer camp, camporee, etc. especially in low income communities.

yeah, I can too....not only in low income.  the way my son's troop did it, it was $100 dues..... then $20 here, $10 there, ok no lets do some fund raising, then $20 again....then $200 deposit for summer camp....then $20, etc....  Oh, almost forgot about the silly $1 a week thing they were doing on top of it all....

I always felt it ridiculous the amount of nickle and diming that happened, especially knowing how much money the troop had in the bank....but I went along with it.

I like the troops that either do the fundraising or just charge dues enough to cover it all....then actually use that money to pay for all the campouts and grub money.  Much less focus on money.

As scouter in the pack, i always asked that question, why did you leave?

never really felt that I got a completely honest and full answer.... except for a couple that moved away. 

answers such as

just not his thing

sports is more his focus

or joined another pack/troop to be with his friends.

I always tried to have a conversation about it to try to learn what could have been better for them, but it seems like most folks just want to move on.

I sorta like cocomax's approach, asking why do you stay....focusing on the positive instead of the negative.

My son left because "it was boring"....which I know translates into too much talking to, too much being read to, too much be taught what I already know, too much talking about what we're going to do rather than going to do it.

I left cub scouts back in the 1970's because we moved, but I hated it....too much arts and crafts stuff, so probably wouldn't have lasted much longer anyway if my mom hadn't been den mother

then two moves later I joined a troop with a buddy, to be with friends.  My buddy & I were in 9th grade I think it was so coming in older than many scouts that were younger and higher rank....with our friends that were already in much higher ranked than us....being taught stuff by them that I already knew...it all just seemed so silly, being more mature and more qualified than the guy signing you off....so I lasted about a year I think and one summer camp.... too much boring book work...but I always regretted not sticking through the boring stuff for more of the fun adventure stuff, at least to 1st class...but sadly there just wasn't enough adventure

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Would you take them to a reservation where the boys' troops were assigned a camp on one side of a 250 acre lake, and the BSA4G troops were assigned a camp on the other side of the lake? Camps would have different, largely independent, staff (from director on down - same rangers though). Some facilities (Cope, Shotgun) would be on a red line that's about 400 yards wide.

Just picking your brain for the sake of certain council camping committees who will try to be proactive about this kind of thing. If such an idea is a non-starter, they hopefully won't waste much time it and hustle back to the drawing board.

wasn't this a movie?.... the boys would sneak over to the girls side of the lake and prank them....and the girls would at other times sneak over to the boy's side for revenge

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Do you and your scouts wear the World Crest on their uniform?

funny thing.... I've never seen this thing on my daughters' GSUSA uniforms.... so much for unity.

17 hours ago, qwazse said:

Fortunately my youth went to the representative, got help, and went around to each adult showing us which parts of the screen to tap in which order.

THAT is your work around for placing needing adults to make the reservations.  That, in my view, is one of the major responsibilities of the SM and ASM's....to do the bidding on direction form the scout leaders.  You don't go telling some state park that they MUST allow a minor to reserve a spot.  that would never fly.....

instead, your scouts say, "Mr, SM, we would like to go camping 'there', are you available to drive us?  Yes? great thank you.  We have confirmed that the group site is available, we'll need the outdoor committee chair to book the site.  here's the link and instructions...."

2 hours ago, scotteg83 said:

In the Boy Scout world, we recognize rank patches immediately.  Then during Court of Honor, we give out the rank card and parent pins.  This could easily work in Cub Scouts as well, recognize all awards (belt loops, pins, ranks) during den meetings, and then on Pack meetings just re-recognize Ranks.

exactly what I was getting at earlier.... that was my read on how it should be back in my day as scouter with the pack.  Sadly we had way too much "ceremony for mom" going on.

I missed qwazse's earlier post about the denner standing up.  I think that would be brilliant!...and along the lines of what I was thinking to about getting the cubs more patrol method and boy lead oriented.  We never successfully used denners at all, sadly.  

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

One of the first changes we made when I became Cub Master was simplify the Blue & Gold back to a fun night that only lasted around an hour. We moved the Arrow of light ceremony to the January Pack meeting and the Crossover to the March Pack meeting. I believe in handing out awards as soon as the scouts earn them, so most of the Webelos already had their AOL by January

almost exactly what I 'wanted' to do...  three separate events....well really I would take it to two events + special mention.

I think AOL should be instant recognition....when he earns it.... and then just like anything else follow up for that particular scout with mention at the next pack meeting.   I'm old school and understand that the AOl award is more like a "rank" now, but I still think it should be instant...at the den meeting level.

also, I think crossover should be more like a special den meeting, with invitation to the pack perhaps

Too big of a deal was made out of these things in our pack...like it was some major accomplishment.  Bored the guys to tears I think....

I think your question...how much of the ceremony is this...or how much of it is that...if a very local thing.  Unit specific.  Typically I think these ceremonies are more parent driven....more for mom kind of thing...and often overdone.

I worked as a scouter when my son was going through the old cub program, so I'm not all that familiar with the new one.  Can't imagine that in this regard it's much different though.  I think it depends on the boy.  Some are big into the patch and earning rank.  Most in my experience are not.  Still, we tried to get them through it.  I'd say that if the guys are close maybe hold a special meeting to help them along...otherwise if they're not, not big deal, they just don't get the patch.  they probably don't care anyway.  We had a couple that didn't earn rank some years...and we had others that "earned" way more arrow points than I'm pretty sure is humanly possible....but we just took him and 'mom' at their word

6 hours ago, cmd said:

Trying to figure out where the balance lies between keeping these guys excited to come back for next year and making sure the kids who earn their rank are appropriately recognized.  

In my experience the excitement comes from the fun in the den meetings and pack meetings, fun with their friends.  Only a very small fraction would quit over not earning rank (like say less than 0.1% to make up a number...as in I never saw a scout that this applied to)

28 minutes ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Our actual patrols, where most chores are done, are mixed and there's certainly no gender based division there. They simply get stuck into it together. Maybe it's the sort of girls that come to scouts rather than girl guides simply not standing for any having to do the cleaning nonsense but it certainly doesn't happen. This is what coed chores typically look like.

There probably is a lot to do with the types of kids that come to scouts

but generally speaking

I can see an upside to this approach, in the development of my son anyway.  He has two sisters and gets along good with them.....but outside of that I'm not really convinced he ever really talks to girls.  I recon from time to time he might get tagged to a girl as a lab partner or something at school, but I'm sure that would never be by choice and likely this is a rarely if ever thing.  It would be good for him to have more friends that are girls...if for nothing else than for better understanding down the road when he starts to date.

interesting

I get the seperate boy dens and girl dens

but I don't really get the girl troop and boy troop thing.  To me it might seem better to have male patrols and female patrols...maybe.

but realistically and logistically genderless is where it 'wants'  it needs to go....

have they changed the shirt yet, so it doesn't say BOY Scouts of America?

7 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

As a scouter with two boys in the Troop, I would occasionally skip a campout, just so the boys had the experience of camping without me. I also arranged it so that they would occasionally camp without either me or their brother.   I didn't go to summer camp with the troop until my oldest was an Eagle, and my youngest was Life and the SPL.    I was pretty much hands-off with the boys when I was there, until they became older scouts.  Then, as they were involved in troop leadership, we interacted more.  

IMO, I think that a conscious effort MUST me made in this area of giving your son space.  My son was already very comfortable with the idea of sleeping away from us so that wasn't an issue....it was more about giving him that opportunity to grow

As committee member, I rarely went with the troop for double reasons.  I was trying to give my son space + I feel as committee member I feel that I really only belong on camps occasionally in my capacity of monitoring the troop.  We already had too many adults along if MOST of the ASM's were along on the trip...and really had too many if they all went.  Add in the odd parent visiting + a committee member or 3 we sometimes had about as many adults as we did scouts.

After son joined the troop and  I was asked to serve the troop....I think I went on one monthly camp, my son's first summer camp, and one other council camp.  The last one I camped with the troop only because I was taking IOLS at the council reservation that same weekend running concurrently with some district event.  I would have loved to go on a lot more but purposely stayed away.

5 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

My sons did prefer being in their own tents for the most part. My youngest didn't realize that until he slept in a tent by himself.  The troop had a rule that only Star Scouts and above could tent alone. Personally, I would have moved that down to First Class, but it seemed to work.  

Our SM had a soft rule about 1st year scouts not tenting alone.  He pushed it but I don't think it was set in stone.... I think it was mostly for the first camp or two till he could get a read on the boy.  Star scout seems extreme to me....personally I think that IF you must have such a rule I'd say 1st Class would be the highest limit....maybe even tenderfoot or 2nd class.

I can see advantages of the social thing and building friendships....but if one wanted to add requirements such as this I personally like the idea of patrol tee pees...big enough for the whole patrol....that could really help build patrol spirit!

ever read the book, "So Far So Good, A New Scoutmaster's Story"?

It's been a while, but I think the story line went something like this.... the scouts had in the back of their mind going on a rock climbing trip, but they knew the adults would never go for it...so they never would bring it up.  It took a little doing for the new scoutmaster to pull it from them..."no seriously, what do YOU GUYS want to do???"

So they pulled it together, practiced a bit of independent leadership along the way...and then once the scouts realized that they could do fun things they started researching and coming up with more ideas on their own. 

maybe this comes from BP's 32 scout maximum for troop size?

nah...that can't be....