blw2

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Have I got this right? Your son tells you that he wishes boy scouts was more like cub scouts, so you concluded that cub scouts should be more like boy scouts.

My nephew felt the same way as your son. He loved cub scouts. He crossed over to boy scouts, but dropped out of scouting during his first year. He wished boy scouts was more like cub scouts. 

I don't think it would have "prepared" him better if cub scouts had been more like boy scouts. He would have dropped out sooner, as a webelos, instead of dropping out later, as a boy scout. The problem wasn't with preparation. He just doesn't like scouting.

 

no, not right at all..... I'm not saying that cubs should be more like the troop...well not as troops are in reality anyway.

A grossly exaggerated analogy of what I'm thinking might be like feeding a boy chocolate ice cream for an appetizer then making him eat broccoli salad for dinner and over cooked Brussels sprouts for desert.

and I don't mean make cubs like brussels sprouts...of course I'm not thinking that fun should be taken away from cubs...

What I'm thinking is really more about preparing both the adults and scouts to ultimately facilitate a better troop life...better than what most are.

I'm saying that I think that the program...and in some ways just the implementation of the program at the pack could ease folks along towards a better end goal than it does.  

In theory, scouts should be capable of coming up with lots of great adventure ideas on their own...defining what they want to do and as they get older ease more an more into doing the planning and implementation.  But in my experience most scouts, even older ones, have no point of reference to what scouts could and should be in terms of adventure and discovery.... Ask these guys what they want to do, and for the most part they'll just come up with a list of the stuff they've done the last couple years in the troop..... plop camping with the troop trailer in one of several locations around the area.

And conversely the scouters seem to carry over all the adult lead stuff form the pack.

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Believe it or not, most boys don't like KP. Most don't really like cooking all that much, either. Planning isn't that much fun and shopping for groceries is boring. But, when sharing those responsibilities with your patrol mates for the purpose of doing the really fun adventure stuff, they aren't barriers of druggery that make a 12 year old think twice about going camping. Those little things are just stepping stone responsibilities for the really fun stuff......

funny, with this one paragraph you summed up a huge bulk of my son's troop experience!  he never wanted to go to the troop meetings because they were usually "planning" for the next low adventure outing....which pretty much solely involved coming up with a menu and deciding who had grub master duties this time.

It's teh fun stuff that was missing....you got that right!

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

 

I have often said on this forum that the success of a troop program is measured best by the older scouts. If the older scouts are coming and having fun, the younger scouts' program is having fun as well. I find that the majority of troops spend way too much time running the younger scouts through the gauntlet of learning First Class skills instead of doing adventure stuff where first class skills are just part of the fun. And those troops generally start loosing their scouts around age 14.

The attitude, sadly, is the fun adventure is for the older scouts. Those are also the scouts who are supposed to be leading and role modeling for the younger scouts. Adding to the problem of boring the younger scouts to death with low adventure and high advancement is boring the older scouts because they are pushed   to teach the first class program to the younger scouts. Well of course, it's a boy run program, so the older scouts are supposed to be the teachers, right! But the problem is teaching the younger scouts is just repeating their first three years of the troop program. And who wants that! Generally it falls on the older scouts whose dads are the adult leaders. The rest of the older scouts left. 

The troop program needs to be as much adventure for the 11 year old as it is for the 15 year old. ....

& I think this sums up what I saw too. There was a push for more adventure for the older guys, but at the expense of leaving the younger guys out.  I never understood that.  The adventures being planned were well within the capabilities of the young guys too.... backpacking a couple miles into a camp site, as an example....

The SM in our troop did not.  He had a "The More The Merrier" policy.

I tend to agree with him, only form the standpoint that I don't feel it appropriate to tell a parent that they can't come along to observe.  I was never aware of any outright direction or rules to stay hands-off either, although I feel like the concept was subtly encouraged within reason... I saw plenty of parent/kid interaction on the trips I joined them on....

The committee did on several occasions make parents register as committee to go along....with summer camp, where it was likely a camp rule.  I never cared for that registering a parent that had no intention of taking a job or really serving the troop in any capacity.

I felt like this was all a carry over from the pack mentality and family camping....see the thread I started today.

oh, I wanted to comment on the stepping on toes thing,...

Clarke Green once advised me, then everyone in a podcast... not being in a key position (cub master, CC, or COR) then there's nothing you can really do.  I thought his analogy was good.... he said it's their house.  It's kinda like you showing up at your neighbor's door with a gallon of paint and saying ok, I'm here to paint your living room, it is the wrong color.

I think it was in his podcast on "Cooperative Volunteering".  I was the one that emailed the question to him.....basically his advice was to cooperate and earn trust, that's all you can really do.  the rest of it, my advice....let it go.

If it helps, these are all very common issues in my estimation

My advice -

1)focus on your den (in the ADL role).  Of the things you've listed, that is the most important.  that is the thing that affects the scouts' experiences.  I take it you are registered as a committee member. I'd suggest talking with the Den Leader, and depending on that conversation either send in an application to register as Den leader or as ADL....so that you are more "official" with some level of "authority" in the job.

2) drop the B&G cold.  nobody will ever step in if you are doing it.  And if it doesn't get done...well something will get done, trust me.  It could be that the CM just has a more or less regular pack meeting and calls for a simple potluck from all parents.  that's all it really needs to be anyway.  So you just drop it. Actually it you said you are already spreading it to others....so step out and let them run with it!

3) drop the advancement thing - and scoutbook.  recording and tracking all of it simply is not necessary.  it all means pretty much nothing at the cub level anyway.  Scouts record their own stuff in their own books....or they don't....the Den Leaders monitor and try to stay on top of instant recognition....and the CM can lean on the DL's to know who to recognize at the next pack meeting.  

4) don't worry about the other leaders' applications or the rest of it.  That's somebody else's  job.  The only exception i think is to let the CC know about any YPT violations...and if they do nothing maybe drop a word to your DE...then drop it.

The focus should be on scouts having fun.  Focus on your den, and secondarily helping the CM have fun pack meetings.

All that record keeping stuff is really just busy work that causes stress and worry in volunteers that are spread too thin anyway.

While reading a current thread about Girls in the pack and how one particular mom prefers the Cub program over the GS program....

I had a thought about my son's experiences. Thought it might trigger an interesting discussion.... or maybe not.

Is Pack life harming troop life?  Are we not preparing these young scouts properly for what 'could be' in the troop?

backing up with a bit of history of my perspective.  My son was active in cubs, maybe typical in that he was excited at first to put on the uniform and the rest.  Over time this grew to being disinterested in going to pack meetings, what I took to be neutral on going to den meetings, and he usually enjoyed the camp outs and trips although the pretrip excitement tempered over time.  He went on most camp outs and trips and had fun overall.   He NEVER really cared anything at all about the advancement or he swag.  Moving to the troop, he went quickly in about 1-1/2 years from "gung-ho super excited do everything" to "I quit".  he never advanced past tenderfoot.

Since he's quit, he has mentioned off the cuff to me a few times that he wished scouts was more like cub scouts.

I think he enjoyed showing up for some pre-planned fun.

he did not enjoy the work of doing KP and other routine stuff like that.  He did not enjoy being re-taught stuff he already knew.  I sorta feel like he experienced all the down sides of responsibility with very few of the up sides to it in his troop.  (for example learning the same first aid stuff as a Wolf, then again as a bear, then again as a WEBELOS, then again at CubORee, then again at WEBELOS akela weekend, then again at an early troop meet, then again at summer camp, then again at University of Scouting, and so on.... AND EVERY one of these turns being somebody reading it to them with very little practical or hands on discovery)

I look at what 'could be' in a troop....scouts coming up with all sorts of fun things to do, discovering, adventure, freedom, and independence.  All that stuff that could lead to the stuff us adults want out of it in a hidden way, without the scouts even knowing that it is happening (character development, leadership training, and all of that...)

I'm sensing that adults were too cub conditioned to put on a troop program as it 'could have been'

and

maybe that my son had some misconceptions about what scouting could be.

Maybe at the pack level less "adults doing everything" and more of that independence, discovery, freedom, and adventure at the pack level would train everyone for a better troop experience

or maybe it would lead to even more boredom?

What are some of the things you can think of that packs are doing

• to ill-prepare scouts for troop life?
• to ill-prepare scouters for troop life?
• to give scouts wrong expectations?

I was thinking about these places and to the topic of this thread.... these are too perfect really.

If I could brainstorm up the "perfect place", I'd think it might be something more rustic

A place where the scouts would have their own key, well at least the Patrol Leaders.... so they can have it as a proper club house, patrol meetings on their own, etc...

Maybe like a barn or rustic cabin

close to where the scouts live but not "too city"

with an outdoor area with a flagpole and fire ring, etc...where camping could be done...like for instance with visiting WEBELOS

on a nice pond or lake for paddling skills, fishing, swimming, etc...

basic electric service & indoor plumbing but not much else in the way of modern upscale living, or fancy fit and finish.  Maybe a wood stove for heat, that kind of thing....

and good storage space for keeping and maintaining gear.

more to add....

It seems that most of us, or at least many, think the treasurer is wrong.

But I'll submit that the treasurer might want to keep the books more linear for transparency and for CYA.  I know that I was that way as Treasurer.  I wanted everything to be clean and easily understood by anyone that cared to look.  Money can be a very sticky wicket and I always tried to keep that in mind....

So, while it's true that this sort of "commingling of funds" can be easily shown in the books and really there's no hard done in what happened.... it's still ugly on the books and any key position scouter should support what that treasurer wants to do here moving forward.

As an example, in principle I took it to the extreme that if I received some cash on behalf of the troop, I never commingled that cash with my own personal money.  It would have been easy enough to put that $1 bill or whatever into my wallet, then the next time I was at the bank just deposited $1 into the troop account.... or even write a personal check to cover it... but I would instead deposit that very same $1 bill that i was given...& I would do it ASAP. 

I wanted anyone looking to be able to see everything very cleanly and easily.  No questions and no fuzzy dotted lines to connect.

On 3/2/2018 at 2:50 PM, JustAScoutMom said:

Was just a joke...my real comment was the one prior.

I found that my son actually preferred being in his OWN tent, rather than bunking with another scout.  Some may simply believe that they have to bunk with another...and they would prefer their parent over another boy.  Not sure if this is the issue, but maybe?

very good point, Justascoutmom....

Also another thought..... how different really, is this topic from those scouts that have a parent as a scouter and have never been on a trip without them.....not sleeping in the same tent, but they go on every trip.  I've seen life scouts that I'm pretty sure have never been on a camping trip without a parent along....?  Now i understand that within this can be a wide disparity between those with very close contact throughout the weekend and those that are very hands off and never interact together on the trip.... but generally speaking that's just a stepping stone or two away in my estimation.  Just knowing that mom or dad is "available" is something.   I can think of a couple cases where dad is the scouter & I used to think that it was dad that couldn't let go but now I'm pretty sure it's mom driven...

11 hours ago, SammyT said:

Hi, all!

I apologize for posting and running, but as I mentioned my work is quite demanding.  I will send the treasurer a note thanking her for the work she does while respectfully disagreeing with the conclusion of that funds were "commingled" then wait to see how it plays out at the next parent meeting.  I sincerely appreciate all the input as it helped me get some perspective on the matter.  Cheers! 

I think the next point in your approach should be supporting the treasurer moving forward in the method they are wanting to push.

as Parkman suggested.

8 hours ago, ParkMan said:

A different perspective...

It's the treasurer's job to manage the cash flow in the pack.  The committee/parents establish spending policy - i.e. can den leaders get reimbursed without prior approval.  But the treasurer ought to have the freedom to establish accounting rules.

So, in your scenario

- the treasurer is free to push back on "comingleing".

- the den leader is free to ask for a policy decision on reimbursements from the Committee

- if you think the treasurer is being punitive or arbitrary - as Cubmaster call her on it.  But avoid getting dragged into a discussion on comingleing - it's not you job to get mixed up in that.

 

 

 

agreed. not your job....and wise to avoid... except I would support them as the figurehead (just a word of support then step out of it).

gotta say, I like qwazse's answer...

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Are you guys trying to tell me that you have never taken a college course, attended a professional seminar, or done boy scout leadership training/YPT just to fulfill a requirement?

I've done lots of that stuff.  I have wasted thousands of hours of my time and spent many thousands of dollars of my money on things that meant nothing to me. As a matter of fact, I have another one coming up this summer. Paper chasing is a normal part of college and professional life. It is an absolute requirement for being a scouter. We all do it. 

I would be a hypocrite if I criticized a boy for paper chasing. 

That said, I do think it is kinda sad that young people are being coached to become so jaded and cynical at such an early age. I would rather that scouting be a time of childhood innocence and fun. The adult stuff should come later. 

 

 

 

good point!

Professional certifications are among the big offenders in this regard....

CPA's, Architect's, Engineers, Medical professions of all sorts.... require regular CEU's.  Biggest laugh.  Nothing but a money making scam.  In my experience most of these folks end up taking a bunch of stuff that has no interest to them at all, and zero bearing on their actual job....except maybe to help them be more "rounded" as a person arguably.

16 hours ago, krikkitbot said:

Ok, so how is this scenario? 

1- Be active in your troop^[2] for at least six months as a Life Scout.

4- While a Life Scout, serve actively in your troop^[2] for six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility:

• Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, webmaster, or outdoor ethics guide.^[3]

 

Scout fast tracks to Life by 13 1/2. Becomes the librarian with minimal responsibilities. at 14 he stops showing up. He is asked to come back and is not interested. At 17.9 he shows up with a stack of blue cards signed by actual MB counselors. He asks to present an Eagle Project to the board and finish his Eagle rank. 

 

He was active 6 months as a Life Scout. He served for 6 months in a position of leadership. Is he an Eagle scout?

.....AND, personally I don't see a hole lot of difference between this Eagle and the one that earned his Eagle at 14 and then dropped scouts.

Both are Eagles....just as is the scout that earned his at 14 and continued to be active

off topic, but to a new SM...when I read this book a couple years back, I thought it should be required reading for all new SM's

it's a work of fiction, and a quick read..... but thought provoking I think

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24872995-so-far-so-good

Another really good one, in a different way was

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2711721-rocks-in-my-backpack?from_search=true

17 minutes ago, krikkitbot said:

So how do I encourage breaking from this "tradition" without ruffling too many feathers? I think that out of a troop of about 20 boys there are about 3 families who do that. 

breaking from tradition....

in a big way that depends on what your position in the troop is.

committee member, parent, or some other non-key position..... not really a lot you can do beyond suggest and discuss...

If SM yeah, i think I'd come up with a to the point way to just tell them.  Meet with those particular parents, and tell them straight out.

scouts is about growing up

troop camping is not family camping like in cubs.

explain the patrol method in basic terms...how it offers a place for the scouts to lead and fail in a safe way, and to grow up like no other program can

encourage buddy system for new campers (at least two scouts in a tent)

Might consider talking with each set of parents individually, in case there's some personal  reason they need to bring up....bed wetters or whatever...

More than likely, its a simple case of daddy or mommy, or maybe little Jimmy just not being able to let go.

be prepared to reassure them that the older scouts PL, SPL, etc... have experience with this, and they take care of each other....they you have spare sleeping bags in the trailer.... first aid kit....or whatever solution for their concern

Our troop never really did that actual distance thing when I was along....mostly just a function of the place.  In most cases it would be more like a figure 8...the adults set up in one circle and the scouts in another. (not actually touching usually, but close by...)

But I personally think that the space idea is very good.

Occasionally when i camped with the troop no effort was made at all....adults and scout tents just placed any old random spot in the site.... I didn't like that at all, even though a hands-off approach was used for the most part.

If I'm understanding the concept correctly We all do it I suppose...signaling.  Not so unlike throwing up the hand, or saying things like "agree to disagree".  It's a "I'm smart, I'm experienced, I have value"..... that is taken by others as you are dumb, you haven't thought this through as much as I have, etc...

yeah, you know in all the time I read and listened to his work, I remember hearing that sort of thing a few times... but I can't think of one of those times when he was really wrong.  maybe off in a nuance, but not really overall concept.....

I can only remember one point of his to which I disagreed, and still do....but I still do only in part.  That was a point he made about ...well really it was a couple points... something about that no adult/scouter should be so much as even talking to a scout unless that adult was acting under specific direction and guidance from the scoutmaster.  The context was regarding mixed messages, confusing the SM's vision & direction for the program, etc... and I think also about the trend of having too many adults involved.  There was a kinda sorta related but separate thing about  keeping parents out and off the "playing field".

Anyway, putting myself in his troop mentally, it really rubbed me wrong...as a parent "aint no two bit SM gonna tell me I can't be involved with what my kid is doing"...and as a trained, well reasoned and well intentioned scouter, I'm just as qualified as that SM to help/coach/guide/steer the scouts.  It rubbed me wrong probably not so unlike the way that your order to that scout rubbed him wrong on that hike when he mouthed-off to you about telling him to regroup with the stragglers.  Kind boiled up a ticked-off anger inside me....

But the thing is, in both cases it rubbed me wrong, but he's right.  When I step back, and remember that this is all about the scout i realize both of those ideas pointed directly to problems or potential problems that degrade the scouting experience for the boys.  His points were good I think....the key I think is in the approach of delivering the idea in the real world.  It's a valid point, but could be handled very positively or very negatively.

18 hours ago, gblotter said:

......... I have a real-life experience to teach that lesson even more effectively. All of our Scouts know the lost backpacker story - it is legend in our troop. When I tell that story around a campfire, they listen with rapt attention.

The discovery happened shortly after. 

gasp.... I'm pretty sure that's more than 4ft up & those scouts don't have safety belts and proper belay equipment

Seriously though, that picture reminds me of some of the great stories in a book I read called "Rocks in My Backpack".  Love to see that!

your "real life" example...was real life, and I'm sure it makes for a gripping and memorable tale when expertly told the way you do....but in the end circling back to the point I've been beating to death about discovery....it's still just a tale to those boys.  It's somebody telling that boy yet again something else.  Sure they remember it, sure it makes the point.... but think about your own experiences throughout life....you had to find your own way and figure things out for yourself....almost anything told to you isn't nearly as valuable/memorable/educational as something experienced real life.

17 hours ago, gblotter said:

I suppose his nugget from that 28 minutes is that Scouting should be a discovery that the boys make on their own, avoiding the interference of adults as much as possible. Got it.

 

It has been a very long time since I listened to that particular podcast, but I'm pretty sure there was a point or two in there you might have missed.  Your photo of the cave discovery....well that is a different kind of discovery than what I'm getting at....& i think different than what Clarke was getting at too.... I'm talking more about that life lesson they can get with regards to leadership and responsibility when, for example, they realize that they screwed up, someone could have gotten hurt, or whatever....not when they are told they screwed up, but that they figure it out for themselves.  THAT is when we all make the decision to do better next time.  And the thing about scouting the patrol method is, that it gives these boys a chance in a relatively safe way to do just that kind of discovery....

Regardless, yes about Clarke.  I used to listen to his podcasts on the way home from work.  I didn't agree with 100% of Clarke's suggestions, but I found him to be very thoughtful and more often than not really made a lot of sense.  I've got to admit that almost every one of the few occasions where I didn't agree, with further reflection and consideration I came around to see wisdom there.  He's got a lot of experience to draw on.... and I believe it to be at least summing it up good experience (I'm not one to think for a minute that just because someone was a scout (insert POR here) that they were good at it.)

4 hours ago, gblotter said:

Agree to disagree.

Yes, I do believe a 58 year-old Scoutmaster has better judgement about safety than a 13 year-old SPL. ....

OK, maybe so....just maybe.... 

so let's say it is so, how did you gain that better judgement?

To quote Yoda in the most recent Star Wars...."The greatest teacher, failure is."  This is the beauty of Scouts and the Patrol Method if done right...it gives these boys an opportunity to gain that judgment in a relatively safe and controlled way where not many other opportunities exist at that age.... 

Going back to your hike example, I might suggest a quick reminder about buddy system and leave it at that with your leader.  Then after that and without his even knowing, fall back yourself to the slower group that you were concerned about.  You can then ensure their safety and even contrive all sorts of things that would have really driven the potential concern of being separated home to ALL of the scouts.  Do the fake leg injury thing I mentioned before.... or just have the trailing group sit down and take a break.  the lead group would then either start to worry, eventually return on their own, or not.  either way  all is safe and lesson could be learned.

Instead, we have a scout that might be one step closer to the exit.

Again, I'm not trying to be critical here....Your action was very likely the very best option at the time....I'm just through the benefit of hind site do a little brainstorm thought exercise here that might help future different situations, just extending your story as the example.   and I'll admit I don't know the particulars of the situation...I wasn't there.  I'm convinced though that your scout's reaction to your order points to exactly the kind of thing that is the basis for my son's quitting scouts. (not that he was bossed or adult led exactly, but that fun was squashed in his eyes.  There was little if any discovery happening)

truly horrible, that.

yes of course....local and specific situations to consider immediately there on the spot, and the ability of hind site and reflection here....

but there are I'd guess almost always ways to accomplish safety and discovery at the same time.  I'll admit myself to not being the best at doing that subtle steering myself, usually having the reflex to be more matter of fact about things in the heat of the moment...  This is the area where I think BSA would be best served by stepping up their training to help all of us scouters improve in this area....

Where was Garret's buddy?  They were using buddy system, right?

I'll be interested in reading your thoughts about that podcast, with this discussion in mind....

On 2/26/2018 at 11:22 AM, gblotter said:

Analyzing external vs internal motivations is interesting (and complex). I get what you are saying, but I try to reconcile that with my son's experience earning the Railroading merit badge. He took that class only because it was offered at a Merit Badge Midway. It was definitely externally driven. He had no prior interest in trains, but he gained an interest because of the excellent merit badge instructor. He's glad he didn't miss out on that experience, even though he never would have gone down that path from a purely internal motivation. ...............

Gblotter, you bring up an interesting side to that whole idea.... there's something in there some place about our being in the opportunity business....giving the scouts opportunities.... I think both points are valid.... I still think it should be internally motivated and driven, but how can we adults make those opportunities available while keeping that internal focus?  hmmm.... a head scratcher

My personal take is

no harm in what was done. 

As treasurer I would mention it to the committee so that it's open and on record what happened

and I would request that all future business be handled in the more linear fashion, just so the books are in line and clean.  Personally I agree that this simple approach is cleaner and better, although I really don't think anything inappropriate was done the other way either....

the real grey area in my thinking, is the situation of the $75 expense....is it the sort of thing that needs prior approval by the committee in your unit before reimbursements are made?  that internal rule should be reiterated for future reference.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that reasonable expenses should be reimbursed immediately.  That volunteer is also volunteering their own money.  Don't make them wait.  report it at the next committee meeting for discussion, but that's what I'd do....

I would agree with qwazse, in theory anyway because of course I don't know the individuals or specifics of the situation....

but in gblotter's situation.... it is so very natural and easy for an adult to make such an "order"....when it might have been "better" to find a way to either

a) in a subtle way lead the SPL to come to the idea himself that he needs to rejoin without him really even knowing that you steered him directly...

or

b) maybe an adult could have held back without saying a word to ensure safety of the younger slower group and let the sprinters carry on.... could even develop into a teaching moment...have one of the slower guys simulate a leg injury on the trail, carry him out, etc... then later in a thorns and roses guide the scouts to discuss other ways that they hike may have been accomplished in better ways... 

The key I'm suggesting is to steer without telling, so that the scouts fail and then DISCOVER their own solution without an adult TELLING them....  much better if an adult never really tells them they failed, and better if they can work out their own solution....

I'm reminded of a podcast...

http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-316-scouting-is-discovery/

yeah, I to would guess your son's troop is typical.

I feel like I know in theory what it could be...how great of an experience for the scouts it could be I mean....

and so I used to get very frustrated, knowing I was in no position to affect real change.  With the help of folks here,. as well as some advice I got form Clarke Green at scoutmastercg.com, and some reading I had done by BP that said something to the affect that EVERY boy will get some good out of scouting, as long as the SM does no harm...(don't remember the exact quote)....I started coming around to the idea that while the troop experience may not be perfect, fun will be had and good will come of it...  My thinking is that the SM (and other scouters) in your example is doing harm in that he's taking away opportunities for the scouts.... but it's not harm in the sense of abuse or danger...so the overall net will be something more than the scout would get if he wasn't a scout.  You've got to let it go

For such a simple concept there really is no clear definition or training.  there's just too much interpretation and grey area so in the end that sort of experience is very typical in my observation....

wow, that's really hitting the jackpot.  That really should be fun for the scouts...ESPECIALLY if the adults get out of the way and let them set it up and furnish the place....

That's the only problem I can imagine with a place that nice.... very unlikely that the adults are going to let the scouts own it, and do what they do.... unlikely that the SPL and PL's will be given a key to the door....