Torveaux

Eamonn, I picked up the new Webelos book in preparation for summer. The relevant points you posted are still valid. Also: It clarifies that you cannot use a den trip to Boy Scout meeting for Outdoorsman and for AOL. (2 visits required) Ditto the Webelos overnighter. Also, AFTER all of the other things are completed, he must get together for a meeting with parents and troop (ie: SM) I think any positive that would accrue to this boy in getting the AOL would be more than countered by the negative accrued to the boys who stuck together. He doesn't need the AOL to be a Boy Scout, get him into Scouts and wish him well. Sometimes hard lessons are the best lessons.

I knew the GS cookies had variable pricing (and cookie options) depending upon Region and Council. If I remember right, I think the paperwork said the Troops could even modify the price, but I'm not really sure if that was right. I really don't know if there are differences in popcorn prices. That is one of those things that we don't often think about, but is really relevant. The economies of NYC and LA are much different than in the Great Plains or the Heartland. It would make sense that there be a bit of a difference. I am glad to see some parents still insist their children do their own selling. I used to hate seeing the GS moms come to the office with the cookie list. I would always buy my cookies from the first Scout to actually come to my door (until I made my own Brownies) . If the project is merely a fundraiser, don't pretend it is the girl doing the selling. My daughter sold 116 boxes door-to-door and to relatives via telephone. She sold them, we did not. (she is 6). It was great to see the difference in our son from last year to this year. He only went to a few neighbors last year (those we knew well). This year he eagerly went to any house within walking distance.

It is, of course, your call. The law says you are an adult (other than for drinking) and will treat you as such if you make an error. It was always easier when coaching as there is the semi-formal title of coach that serves as a nice bridge. Hmmm...do you refer to an ASM as Scoutmaster xxx like you would call a Lt. Colonel "Colonel xxx"?

Oak Tree, I understand that some councils have council day/resident camps outside the 'normal' summer period. This may be in areas with many year-around schools or weather conditions that make summer camping by Cubs a bit difficult. (Florida?) I don't know if there is a list of them somewhere, but I suppose campers from outside the council would be welcome if there is room. We share a summer camp with the Milwaukee County Council. (It is actually must closer to us than to them, but it is their camp.) They offer overnighters for Cubs and for Webelos, 4-day/3 night, 3 day daycamp, and 1 day daycamp. With the variety of dates available, you almost need to try for an excuse not to go. We also have a Council specific Camporee that is 4 days and 3 nights at our Boy Scout camp. It is for Tigers through Venturers (and families). I suppose I should spin this part off, but does anyone know where you where the Summertime Pin if you have the Outdoor Activity Award? The Summertime award is one optional piece of the OAA, so it will likely be common that boys who have the OAA would also have the SPA. (gotta love acronyms, right?)

I think some people need to grow up. If you consider any sort of embarrassment or discomfort to be hazing, then you have never experienced it. I view this line of thinking in a similar manner to those who call others 'Nazis' for trivial reasons. I know a former scout who was hazed. It consisted of being tied up in a basement and having most of his clothes removed and being ridiculed and taunted by other scouts. He is now one of the finest men I know, but he left scouts right away. Scouting did not haze him, scouts did. The silly games and singing in public is not remotely hazing. It challenges our boys to find courage (a Scout is brave, right?) in a safe environment. As for punishing the group for the failures of a member, how about this example. If a ship captain makes a mistake that dooms the ship, do they not all get wet? If a member of a sports team makes a mistake that causes him to lose, does not the whole team lose? Sometimes these mistakes are choices. Other times they are simply the cruel twists of fate. When we try too hard to protect our children from embarassment or failure we do them a serious disservice. Keep things in proportion and build better men.

If you are looking for an upcoming BALOO, we are not TOO far from Elgin. (90 miles?) April 23rd. pacbsa.org for details.

I would have to disagree a bit with Eamonn here. I think in general (anecdotal evidence aside) children tend to be more respectful when they treat adults (especially young adults) with the formalities of social behaviour. This is especially true in public settings. When you are called by your first name in the Troop, it tends to make the boys see you as one of them rather than one of the leaders. (unless this is the norm for all of the leadership) In some ways this may be a good thing, but in general it undermines your authority with them as they do not really view you as an adult leader so much as just another kid. Sure, respect has to be earned, but the default should be to give it until it is lost, not the other way around. It is much more difficult to reassert such things than to expect them from the beginning. (frankly, if I was the SM in your Troop I would have made sure the boys called you by title from the get-go, mostly by setting the example. Do the other leaders call you by first name to the boys, or by title?) Maybe you could start by having them call you Mr. V. That may be a nice bridge between formality and familiarity. If you are in other situations where you are not in a leadership position with the boys (say, for example you and a 17 year old were in the same Venturing unit) I would expect the boy to call you by first name except when at Troop functions.

GJ, I have a Brownie and a Cub as well. The only reason I think the cookies sell better is that people who want to buy something only have to come up with $3. The cheapest popcorn is $7. I know it is not a big difference really, but I think

That would be reasonable. As such it should be discarded immediately. First, the anti-BSA crowd would have hissy-fit about Church & State even though it does not really apply to the Constitution (especially in this instance). Second, the anti-military crowd woudl have a hissy-fit because 'Scouting is not a military organization' even though that was the basis used by BP. Third, the anti-change crowd would have a hissy-fit because that is not the same uniform THEY wore and by golly it just doesn't look 'scouty' enough. Nothing wrong with the old uniform. Problems..."la la la.. I can't here you Jeffrey". (apologies to Beverly Hills Cop).

What exactly is the lesson? "Look how we can twist the rules to get more badges!" Day Camp or Resident Camp is not the same thing as a one day cub outing. I think part of the reason for the award is to get more kids to attend the BSA camps. I get rather frustrated as it seems many people are seeking ways to bend the rules (if not outright break them) in an organization that is supposed to be teaching boys to follow rules and be morally straight. Part of growing up is learning that we don't always get what we want. It also is learning that it is better to follow the rules and know in our hearts we did the right thing than to manipulate the system so we can unjustly wear a badge that others earned correctly. That demeans the boys that did the right thing and teaches nothing good to the boys that are being 'accommodated'.

It sure appears that the award is intended to be for 2005 and beyond. Unless your Council has a fall or winter day/resident camp, your Webelos IIs would not be eligible as far as everything reads. Since crossover is generally before camp, it seems your Wolves would need to do the Bear requirements. Our Bears will be working toward it as Webelos Is.

While I think some door-to-door selling is good for kids, I can understand why some would not like it. It can be especially difficult since every kids' sports league, public school, and church group has taken to fund raising in this manner. Maybe the solution is as simple as saying, "Rather than nickel and dime people everytime we have an event, your annual part of your Pack/Troop dues are $xxx worth of popcorn sales (or whatever) you can either sell the popcorn valued at that much, or you can contribute it yourself." Those who do not contribute to the general fund, are responsible for their own camping/activity fees. Perhaps you could 'require' participation in one of 2 or 3 options for fundraisers, that way some who just cannot or will not go door-to-door could help out with a car wash or kiosk-sales. Rather than overt rules, you could simply have success goals that mean that those boys that sell over certain goals get their camp or activity covered by the unit. We do not have Scout accounts either, but the more I hear about them, the more I like the idea.

Laurie, What do you think about having the Boy Scout hat have some badge of office device? That would be visible regardless of what was covering the shirt. As for the purposes of the uniform, I agree with VentureScoutNY. The training and camps 'require' the uniform, yet it is supposed to be optional AND it is supposed to be designed for meetings and such, except that the poly/cotton version pretends to be outdoorsy. If the uniform is going to be strictly for meetings and such, it may as well be the slacks and jacket version available for Scouting professionals. Either have a formal (indoor) uniform and an informal (camping) uniform or just realize that the uniform needs to be multi-functional and design it that way.

I guess I will have to show you where the answers are in the book. Source 2003 edition Webelos Handbook. Page 10 "For projects that are done at home or with the family and are not easily transportable, the parent or guardian may still be asked to approve the Webelos Scout's completion of an activity badge." On page 71 it outlines the Academics and Sports program. "You can earn some of these awards along with your pack or den. You can earn some on your own or with your family or in your community." It goes on to specifically address the required and optional belt loops that apply to Webelos Activity Badges and makes no mention whatsoever about 'for these you need you WDL's approval'. Not a big issue for me as I will soon be my son's WDL, but if I was not, I would pull him out of a den with a WDL that was that unreasonable. The program is not designed that way. MOST of the program goes through the WDL, but he/she is not some dictator that rules over all aspects of the boys' advancement. It would be reasonable for the WDL to have the boy tell about his experiences earning the belt loops, but doing belt loops 'in den' is not prescribed at all. I've got the Cub Leader Book and the Webelos Leader Guide. Neither one says anything about Belt Loops being earned 'in den'.

anarchist, Some of the new requirements include earning beltloops as part of a Webelos activity badge. Most used to be optional, but some are now required. Sportsman requires 2 belt loops from individual sports and 2 belt loops from team sports. Citizen requires that you earn the Citizenship Belt Loop. There are many others that have options for Belt Loops as well. As there is no requirement in the beltloops that they be done as a den, this WDL is unlawfully adding to the requirements. Family 1st, is there any chance you could get a 'note' from your old WDL about the belt loops. It sounded as if their problem was money and since you bought them yourself, he should not care. I see this as a much bigger issue than the $$.

Bob. You are right. I said markup was 100% and you said margin was 40%. I missed your term because you were responding to a question about the markup. My bad. ed, I just mean that there are a few people that will get a uniform because they want one, but if you tell them it is mandatory, they may balk. I would guess most of these people currently wear only the shirt and are the same ones that would not like uniform pants regardless of any changes. I also believe this is a small (10%) portion of those who do not regularly wear the pants. Frankly, I played football and coached Jr. Football and never, ever, had to pay for a uniform. I currently coach a boys HS rugby team and the team owns the uniform. We help the boys by letting them group an order if they want to get their own 'official' shorts and socks, but that is to get them a discount, not increase the costs to them. The official pieces are optional. We also never tell them they cannot wear the 'official' shorts/socks with their 'civilian' clothing. Maybe this touches on a possible solution. Rather than having boys purchase a pair of pants that they will be able to wear for maybe one year (due to growth), we should have a rental program wherein the pants are owned by the Troop/District/Council/National and loaned to the boys for official use. The boys pay only a nominal fee and a deposit. If the pants are returned in good, clean condition, they get a bigger size as needed. When they leave the unit, they get their deposit back less any damage or cleaning costs. At the end of the day, however, this only solves part of the cost problem, not the appropriateness of the uniform, its look, or its durability.

Hunt, I think you nailed it very nicely. I would highlight your point on cost being only one (and not necessarily the most important) factor. BTW retail markups are generally closer to 100% than to 40% Bob, I didn't say we should have a uniform like foreign units. Stay focused here. I said, effectively, that they do not all buy their uniforms from domestic merchants. This whole sub-set of the topic is born of misguided patriotism. Ed, as for making the uniform mandatory. I think you would see a higher drop rate and a more difficult time recruiting. For some, it would be tough to afford, for others it would be contrary to their personal liberty stance (these would buy it now, but not if they were forced). I think the net number of uniforms would stay about the same. Besides, despite the fact that most read the rules to mean that one must wear the entire uniform, I would be willing to bet that most scouts/scouters wear the shirt with something other than the official pants. From observing our own Roundtables and the photos available from other council's fliers (photos of scouts with offical shirts and civilian pants), I would not place conformance at a high level. How would you enforce a mandatory uniform rule? I guess if we were to have one, it would be best implemented by an initial buy-in to join that includes the cost of a full uniform for each scout/scouter. Units in poorer parts of the country may need to get financial assistance, but I would expect National to help them coordinate a 'uniform-ship' program to make it happen. That would shrink the size of the BSA, but everyone would have a uniform. Of course, it also fails to address the the core issues of having an impractical, poorly made pair of pants, but at least you are thinking of alternate solutions rather than resisting all attempts at change. Part of the reason the US suppliers can charge so much is that National has forced itself into the domestic corner. If buying internationally was an option on the table, it might bring costs down due to market forces. Classic microeconomic law, if you limit your supply options, price will go up.

Do you think I could be an MBC for the Video Game Design MB? I spent two years as a game designer for a major game company. I've been playing computer games since, well, basically when computers came into homes. LOL. Maybe I could be on the staff that writes the requirements. (This is actually a very good idea, many more universities are adding Game Design to their programs. It is not as easy as kids like to think.)

Bob, If the pants are only for ceremonial occasions, such as "meetings, parades, ceremonies, public speaking" then we can save huge amounts of money. Each of us would only need one pair of uniform pants and we can get equal or better quality for less than half of the price. Also, our camps require the use of the field uniform. Therefore, whether or not we 'know better', camping in the uniform is, um, required. (we are not authorized to make changes). Personally, I think there are plenty of acceptable design options that would make a great multi-purpose uniform. They may not be as dressy as a formal dress uniform or as hearty as a $300 set of camping togs, but they would be more things to more people than the current mess. bgeipel, There are many reasons why your concerns are unfounded. First and likely foremost, Scouting is an international organization, not merely a national organization. The US products are often of inferior quality compared to the imported garments (contrary to popular myth). Our well-meaning unions and legislators have made textile production in the US a losing endeavour. More to the point, if the BSA adopts a uniform that closely matches a production garment, they can take advantage of economies of scale whether that is a domestic or foreign producer. Most similar garments are purchased individually and must compete in the open market as individuals. That drives up the cost of advertising and marketing for the various brands. The ability to have a huge account, such as BSA, enables manufacturers or distributors to shave a huge portion off of their cost. You vastly underestimate the buying power of so large a group. Manufacturers do not make huge runs of existing designs/colors/fabrics because they go in and out of fashion. A 5-year BSA contract would be a huge boost to most manufacturers. Better yet, if we went with an independent distributor, they could bid out the items (like BSA Supply does now) and do it for a great deal less. Do you suppose that Scouts in other parts of the world limit themselves to uniforms that are domestically produced?

So is your argument that the Cotton/Poly multi-pocketed BSA pants are better for outdoor wear? The polyester helps keep wrinkles out but it does little else for warmth, dryness, or durability. If you compare the Cotton Trousers to 'civilian' wear items in the same class, the price difference is even greater. I can get 100% cotton dress slacks for $22 or less (JCPenny) and they will last as long as the BSA pants given the same usage. If you look for hiking pants, they are almost all 100% cotton. Most blue jeans are 100% cotton as well. BSA doesn't even offer a better solution (like a nylon blend or some newer synthetic fabrics). What I am getting at is that the pants available on the open market are every bit as good or better than the BSA pants for much less. If your argument is that the pants available are not good for outdoor wear, I would agree. The goal, in part, is to get BSA to select a pant that suits the mission. Dress pants are not much good for a large portion of the program. There are plenty of good options that will fill the role of 'meeting' pants as well as that of outdoor pants. BSA already has a 'dress' uniform and it is gray trouser that runs for $71.80. To upgrade the pants to something better than the cotton, you can get a 55% nylon 45% cotton pant from REI (hardly a discount retailer) for $49.50. Sure, that is $4.10 more than the BSA poly/cotton, but it is a much higher quality item AND serves as both shorts and pants (making the net difference about $36 less). Most of us simply do not have the budget to buy multiple pairs of pants that we wear once a week. At the end of the day, the root point here is that the pants are not "one of the lowest priced" at all. I love the idea of wearing a uniform and having my son wear one as well. (I come from a military family where uniform wear is quite normal and appreciated) I just want a uniform that suits the mission and does not seek to needlessly soak the membership for hidden dues.

On Arrow Points... The Cub Scout Leader Book says: Pg 20-7 "At the end of the school year, and once a boy moves to the next Cub Scouting level, he may not "go back" and earn Arrow Points from the earlier rank." For Tigers.... Pg 19-10 "The boys should lose no time or Scouting experiences in beginning the Wolf program...They are automatically tranferred from a Tiger Cub den into a Wolf Cub Scout den on June 1 of that year without any additional paperwork. fotoscout: "There is nothing wrong with allowing the boys to work on Wolf Arrow points during the Summer. In fact this may be preferred since your participation may be less through the summer months. Then in September, with everyone back from the summer, you can startup with the Bear program." I would caution against this approach. There is more to do in the Bear program and many opportunities are best accomplished in good summer weather. Family camping and outdoor activities and such can be completed well before September. Once school is added to the mix it becomes more difficult to get such things done. Since one cannot be both a Wolf and Bear, I would suggest getting the Wolf completed ASAP so the boys can get moving on the Bear trail.

In our case it is available at our Council website. http://www.pacbsa.org/index.html Go to training and then on-line training. Fast Start, Safe Swim Defense, and Safety Afloat are all available there as well. I would guess that some other councils have it offered on-line as well.

On cost: Bob: "Could we quit with arguments over high priced. Facts have proven over and over that the current uniform is one of the lowest priced and cost effective uniforms in any youth program." No we cannot. Let's look at a little real-world example. The 100% Cotton BSA Trouser is currently listed at $56.60 for regular size 36. It has no cargo pockets or similar 'outdoors' design. In comparison, Cabela's (an Outfitter) currently has a "2-in-1" 100% cargo pant available with zip-off pant legs (shorts and pants in one). It has big cargo pockets and is generally suited to outdoor wear. The cost? $34.95! That is almost $22 is savings PLUS you don't have to buy a pair of shorts (BSA $49.20). That is about $71 in savings per set of pants/shorts. If you prefer the BDU style pant, they have those for $24.95. The 7 pocket shorts are $19.95. That's right, for the same (actually the Cabela's stuff is more suitable to Scouting wear) articles you pay about 1/2 the price. That's without negotiating a better deal as an official BSA supplier. Given the large volume and captive audience, the BSA could negiotiate a very good deal with a supplier such as Cabelas or Land's End, or LL Bean, etc. to provide the 'official' pants. Those are the pertinent 'facts'. I would love to be able to afford 2 or 3 pair of official pants to wear to meetings and outings. If those pants were authorized for 'civilian' wear, I could get more use out of them rather than have them be redundant. It is one thing to pay an extra $5 a pair as a contribution to Scouting. It is quite another to pay twice as much for an inferior product.

Sorry, PS, but you will need verifiable sources for that. A few unit commanders after the fact said they wanted more troops, but the top brass who are the professionals had everything they asked for prior to the military action. Dumping such drivel on the President is uninformed at best and deliberately misleading at worst. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you read some op-ed piece rather than the words of the actual commanders. The UN diplomacy was not working because many of the UN members were in financial cahoots with Saddam. It had nothing to do with US policy at all. As for WMDs, some reports have Saddam himself believing he had them, others say Saddam says he made them up to scare off Iran. Either way, we KNOW that he used them in the past he was unable or unwilling (as per UN resolutions) to produce evidence of his known WMDs being destroyed. People like Mr. Naughton are a classic example of what is wrong in this country. People so wrapped up in ideology that they cannot see success when it stares them in the face.

For sports, I would group them together. Racquet sports - Tennis, Racquetball, Badminton, etc. Football sports - Soccer, American FB, Rugby, Australian, Canadian, etc. Track & Field - wide variety available here Club sports - Golf, Baseball, Cricket, etc. Throwing sports - Ultimate, Darts, Horseshoes, etc. In some cases Scouts could compare and contrast the sports, show skills in more than one of the sports, etc.