ThunderFox

Quote: "The rules say that parents can attend if they so choose." It does NOT say parents can attend if they still want to after doing all you can to discourage them!! Put the onus where it belongs, the OA & District leadership need to select a ceremony site where parents may observe and still not detract from the ceremony. Any level of discouraging parents from attending will grow as "protecting the Ceremony" will be the focus rather than following the rules. And then, we get another "Secret Organization" accusation that BSA does not need.

Old_OX_Eagle83 "and then act to continually undermine the program." That sir is your opinion and is in conflict with the policies of the BSA. You signed up and signed a promise to follow the rules. End of story. Honor your promise! Its just that easy! Stop trying to build loopholes based on your opinion or legends. Rules are rules when you promise to observe them. Its not a buffet!!!

Old_OX_Eagle83 "and then act to continually undermine the program." That sir is your opinion and is in conflict with the policies of the BSA. You signed up and signed a promise to follow the rules. End of story. Honor your promise! Its just that easy! Stop trying to build loopholes based on your opinion or legends. Rules are rules when you promise to observe them. Its not a buffet!!!

In less than two weeks this thread will be TWO YEARS OLD. Some folks want to follow the rules of The Boy Scouts of America and some want to follow the rules of Boy Scouts of Bob, Fred, Billy, John or Secret Squirrel. The thing that must be recognized is that Boy Scouts of Bob, Fred, Billy, John and Secret Squirrel do not have a charter nor a rule book to follow, so when you go that route, its a free for all, because if you have 25 Scouters you have at least 49 opinions!!!! Let this thread die, its already arthritic!!!

I think I can confident that this thread has officially been Hijacked.......sadly it did not happen soon enough as this dead horse has been flogged three times. So, "RE: Parents attending OA Ceremonies" Rest In Peace!

Folks, There are some realities here and Opinions that do not conform to the reality are invalid. BSA National Office says parent may elect to attend. That leads to some facts: 1. Any time Scouters choose to violate the rules, those Scouters have all the liability if anything bad, horrible or lethal occurs. Even if parents being prevented to attend has nothing to do with it, they have already proven they do not follow the rules. 2. The part about ruining it for the boy is all bugle oil!!! What you are saying is our District and OA does not know how to properly organize a Scouting

Folks, There are some realities here and Opinions that do not conform to the reality are invalid. BSA National Office says parent may elect to attend. That leads to some facts: 1. Any time Scouters choose to violate the rules, those Scouters have all the liability if anything bad, horrible or lethal occurs. Even if parents being prevented to attend has nothing to do with it, they have already proven they do not follow the rules. 2. The part about ruining it for the boy is all bugle oil!!! What you are saying is our District and OA does not know how to properly organize a Scouting

From what I have read here, there are Good Old Boys and there are Good Old Boys. And the question is what kind of Good Old Boys are you a member of? A wise leader knows things always change and by embracing change you can minimize it's negative impact and maximize the positive. Our Good Old Boys actively recruited new parents (moms & dads). Through our ASM-Pack Laison, we identified parents to recruit before they were even members. Because we aggressively recruit, we have Basic Training Courses that are predominately learners from our troop. We have one or two "Troop Committee" Par

Acco is correct. The District Award of Merit is NOT the District Award of District Merit!

Old Grey Eagle, The LDS Church makes restrictions within their observance of religious practices in accord with BSA policy as a Chartering Organization. It is not the troop PLC with CO approval. Also it is in accord with their Religion and is not discrimination of Race, Greed or Color.

Acco, As to banning folks of certain beliefs and etnicity, you are partially correct. If the Chatering Organization is a religious institution such as a Catholic Church, the institution, in whatever is the normal regualtory process of the insitution, may stipulate that members of the Scout troop, including adults must be Catholics. They could be more exclusive and say they must also attend their church. But nowhere in BSA Policy are they allowed to restrict membership by race. But now wee are off topic, and what the new thread might be is a rehash of bashing or supporting

Acco, You may disagree all you wish, that is your right. But it is still a violation of BSA Policy. You are effectively saying the PLC can do whatever it wants so long as the Chartering Organization approves. But the agreement the Chartering Organization signed, a Charter Agreement, says they will NOT violate BSA Policy; so their approval of BSA Policy Violations are null & void. By the way, litigationa arising from this situation will be individual to the Chartering Organization and the troop adults. BSA has clear bans on this therefor BSA's attorneys and insurance will not defen

QUOTE: "4 If the PLC wants a "no women" rule and that is okay with the CO - so it goes. " This is a violation of BSA Policy.

The Patrol Leaders' Council does not have the authority to violate BSA Policy. They cannot vote to exclude adults from Troop Activities. If adults have "ruined" a campout, it is because the Adult Leaders did not orient the new parents. I suggest this process should begin when the parents visit the troop with their Webelos son. Hand them a Parents' Handbook that effectively explains Scouting to them and how they fit in. It should also include what Grownups do on Campouts. This book must make it Crystal Clear that adults DO NOT VOTE on whether or not Scouts may execute a properly planned tr

Dan, Careful here. Den Flags & Patrol flags have different purposes and are in two different programs. If you bring too much of "Boy Scouting" into Cub Scouting, you run the risk of damaging both experiences. I encourage you to look in Cub Scout Leader information for the correct use of Den Flags, especially Tiger, Wolf & Bear dens. Also ask some of the long time District Cub Scout Leaders. Yours in Scouting, Old Thunder Fox

Beavah, I too am an old Codger (prefer Old Geezer) and I realize if a codger told the story in question about his youth, it was probably many years ago very soon after guns were invented; and I too, enjoyed the story. The fact remains, the Scoutmaster was lucky. Given the same circumstances, there were many more bad results possible than good. Had I been in that position, it would have been sans the beer and I too, would have otherwise done what Codger's Scoutmaster had done: be personable, hospitable and try to defuse the situation and get the drunk to leave peaceably. But, there i

Codger, What bearing does one isolated event that was entirely the wrong thing to do, that just happened to work out, have to do with what is not tolerable behavior? What your Scoutmaster did could have turned into any number of ugly felonies. The posibilities are staggering and horrifying. The least of which would have been after getting drunker, the guy drove off and ran over a Scout or had a collision on the road to wherever he was going. Your SM could be contributory in that situation or any other law breaking the drunk guy did. Scouting says no alcohol! It does not say bring a six

(Council) Scout Executives do report to the Council Executive Board that hired them. But a (Council) Scout Executive is not autonomous so long as the Council Executive Board is happy with him or her. A (Council) Scout Executive can be fired, reassigned or put on the promotion list by the Professional Scouter above him or her.

There is a chain of command, whether official or not, national refers to it as the hierarchy through the professionals as straight line from National Scout Executive to the District Executive and straight line for the executives (not Scout Execs) from the national president to the unit committee chair. Same lineage for program from the National Commissioner through the Commissioner Staff to the Unit Leader. I did not indicate the Unit Commissioner is in charge of the Unit Leader. The Unit Commissioner is an emissary to the unit and not in charge at the unit level. "Chain of Command"

We do the Annual Planning Conferenc/Junior Leader Training weekend then a revisit 6 months later when we have new leader elections and JLT. Troops do fall into ruts and as some here have said they do not know what they do not know. At a time when we had the same problem, at our regular SM staff meeting after the troop meeting, I asked the team to come up with ideas and experiences from troops they grew up in or some other way. We compiled the list and picked things that were appropriate for our troop at that time. We divided the list so each of us had a couple of "ideas". The

It has long been a boy made policy in our troop for older Scouts to go on the annual high adventure trip; they must give leadership to the younger Scouts at Summer Camp. The founding 15 Webelos made this policy because we had to borrow two older Scouts from another troop when they went to their first Summer Camp with our loan older Scout. They hand down the story to the younger Scouts so they know why the rule. The founders have grown, graduated and moved on, the story and the tradition remain. (Whew!) Ol' Thunder Fox

Vigil, I hear you!

Vigil, I am amazed that a Roundtable Commissioner could bulldog a whole district. We have so many Type A folks in our district that the Camping Chair, Activities Chair and/or Camporee Chair would tell him to, "Get real, we will do this our way!" And then they would argue amongst themselves about before or after Mothers' Day! Hahahahaha! Cheers Mate, Ol' Thunder Fox Quartermaster SES SilverSpray

Si Habla Yiddish?

A big part of the problem, besides lack of volunteers, is the fact that very few folks know what a District is supposed to do and so have no idea how to get there. A major clue is our org chart to begin with and its chain of command. Start with the Key 3, it is repeated at every level. The National SE is directly in line above the Regional SE who is Directly above the Area SE who is above the Council SE who is above the District SE who is above the COR & IH. The Professional Chain The National Chairman (pres) is directly in line above the Regional Chairman who is Directly