Tampa Turtle

27 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

 

Sadly, I had a very similar experience...and that's why I don't counsel MBs at Pow-Wows or MBUs anymore.

 

Not as rude but once I explained the rules got few takers. Not invited back. Well less work for me.

28 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Yes, in fact those are expressly verboten (read Officially discouraged) by the OA. Any difference in level is not allowed (read Officially discouraged) in flaps. The only items that can be distinctive to level are the sash and for vigil a device on the dangle.

I have seen temporary patches like mini sashes,  I am not sure if those are approved, discouraged or if National just turns a blind eye.

I have been given different length ribbons for the device on Ordeal vs Brotherhood. And everyone wearing their different sashes kind of emphasizes 'levels'.

12 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

The people she is describing as naturalists are not naturalists (ok, they could be naturalists also but not in the context she is using the term).

Naturalists study nature - especially plants and/or animals.  In the context of climate change, naturalists are only concerned with it as a way to study how animals and plants react to it - they aren't advocating a position either way.

Environmentalists work to preserve the environment - and yes, these days, it's pretty much done in the political zone.

What she is comparing environmentalists to are better referred to as Conservationists.  Conservationists work towards preserving and managing our natural resources.  They're hunters creating shelter belts for deer, fisherfolk creating artificial ripples and rip-rapping to create/enhance trout habitat, they're prairie stewards pulling garlic mustard or doing controlled burns.  These are just examples of course - there are many ways people can be conservationists.

The thing about it is that people can be none of these, just one of these, two of these in any combination or all three.  I happen to be a naturalist through both my childhood experiences ("I've been a serious birdwatcher since I was 10), and by training (My degree is in Environmental Education - I had a lot more science courses than education courses for that degree).  I am still a serious birdwatcher, spent a lot of time studying dragonflies and damselflies in my 20's and 30's, and for the last couple of years have been paying a lot of attention to bumblebees.  

Because I am a naturalist, I am also an environmentalist with an interest in climate change policies.  In my 45 years of serious birdwatching, and list keeping, I've seen the trends.  I've seen flocks of robins wintering over in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin the past 10 years where it used to be rare to find just one in the winter.  Northern Cardinals are southern birds - or at least they used to be - now they're wintering over in central Wisconsin.  Northern Mockingbirds are southern birds as well - and were seeing more and more of them in Chicago were we never saw them before.

Plant populations are changing too - Sugar Maples are starting to die off completely in the south - their range is shrinking.  My favorite maple sirup place (yes - sirup - look it up) is worried that their sugar bush will be gone in the next 30 years - there are no new maple trees coming up.  There are already indications that the sugar bush could completely disappear from Vermont, Maine, Wisconsin and Michigan in the next 75 years.

Agriculturalists are worried that southern crops like Cotton and Tobacco, which need fairly long growing seasons, will supplant corn crops in Illinois, Indiana and Iowa in the next 100 years.  

Yes - this is mostly anecdotal evidence, but when you such a large diversity of anecdotal evidence to climate change, somethings up - and its enough to convince me its a real issue.   And yes, we've chosen an arbitrary point to start looking at climate change - but its a point well within our personal experiences, and sure, maybe its all a coincidence that there has been a doubling of CO2 levels in the last 100 years and a change in natural history patterns during that time but I look at it this way - If I'm wrong about climate change, the actions I take won't do any harm.  If the deniers in the political majority are wrong, their refusal to take action will do harm.

Of course, I am also a conservationist.  I'm one of those folks who go out and cut brush, pull invasive species. etc.

I also drive an SUV - I'm a big guy, I'm getting older and less flexible - an SUV has a lot more room and I like to be comfortable.  I eat red meat (though I do get my meat from local farmers who raise, slaughter and process locally).  I don't fly anymore but not because of my carbon footprint but because I think the security theater is stupid.  But I do like to travel and drive a lot - so much for a low carbon footprint.  Am I a hypocrite?  I plead not guilty. I'm not one of those environmentalists who are trying to tell other people how to live (I find most of those folks are people in their 20's - the "true believers" and that most of them grow out of it when they start to raise a family).  However, I will continue to advocate for more sustainable and renewable energy development.  Solar and wind will reduce a heck of a lot of carbon and be a boon to our economy and manufacturing sector as well 

This is more of the discussion I meant. Some folks are Species-ists (Humans #1) and others wish we had never been on the planet at all (I know a few Biologists like that who after a few years manage to pump out a few children of the their own).  

I only know what I saw at my Council store: Order of the Arrow Knots for Ordeal, Brotherhood, or Vigil members. You had to show your ID to get them. If this is a rogue uniform move I do not know.

I agree with Aging Eagle...my sons both Eagled and the COH was after their 18th birthday. They were awarded their badge and it was pinned on their well worn Class A uniform for the ceremony and pictures. It was then retired for posterity (because that is important for scout moms). Thereafter they wore a new shirt with the appropriate Eagle, AOL, and OA Knots after they did their YPT and are now registered as adults.

I have observed the same things as Cleveland. The museums, groups, and non-profits that offer Merit Badges close to their area of expertise often do a much better job than the actual BSA ones.

In addition in the last few years I have observed it is many of the Scouts, not just the parents that want the easier rapid badges and advancement. I'd like to blame it on the worksheets that started as tools but seem like the goal all the way into High School, perceived hyper competitiveness for stellar college applications, and a shift toward being able to retrieve the answer via the internet over mastering the material.

If BSA National started pushing more rigorous requirements they would likely face a backlash and push-back from many Troops - look how many 'go rogue' over other issues.  I do not think BSA, obviously concerned about numbers and revenue, will put up much of a fight. The demand for that darn Eagle will just erode the brand. 

 Here I stand worrying about leaving my finger in the dike and the whole North Sea is breeching the other end.

"Give the People What They Want" (Kinks 1981)

Give the people what they want 
You gotta give the people what they want 
The more they get, the more they need 
And every time they get harder and harder to please

We still use Trooptrack which is great for communication but lousy for Advancement. I miss Troopmaster but most of the adults hated to use it. 

21 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

It is sad that respect for the environment (and so many other things) have become so politicized that there is an "us and them" mentality that pretty much negates that hope of cooperating on solving problems.

But Tracky saying " self-proclaimed liberal friends" label does not really help that discussion. The discussion cuts across many different philosophical (economic, moral, religious, historical) axes. I taught a sustainability Class at a university 20 years ago and was anticipating being a MBC on this one but man..but BSA made it so boring and there were so many potential directions to make it more interesting. In any case the word of mouth by our scouts is to stick with Environmental Science.

"rebellion against his Eagle Scout/Scoutmaster dad" seen that a couple times! 

Ditto to Communication. I have had a few coffees with my Pastor who never did scouting while growing up and he really had very little idea what it was all about other than 'Flags and Camping'. So he was reacting to things and valuing the Troop as part of the Church completely differently than we thought. 

This could be an excellent discussion for Sustainability MB which unfortunately is a bit of a snoozer.

Depends on the boy. Does the boy really want it? How bad does he want it? Some boys even at 18 may lack organizational abilities because of a disability and that becomes an obstacle. Others lose interest...I give 'the speech' and move on. I know in my Troop adults will work hard to remove any artificial obstacles for a boy making a good faith effort. Several times I have been 'on call' for last minute sign offs for one of my Eagle required Merit Badges if I know ahead of time. If I am going to be out of town I will suggest other MBC's that I trust and give them a heads up (but I never tell the boy). Some just plumb run out of time.

If a boy is a terrific Life Scout and has had a great youth career than praise, praise, praise him. Too many parents (and Scouters) are transmitting the attitude that not getting Eagle is a failure. Wrong, wrong, wrong. We had a SM once who was forever telling the boys "not to go from Life to Stupid". I hated that. Eagle should be something that you accumulate along while having fun. Don't even get me started on the boys who skipped along to Eagle with the minimum MB's and camping nights. 

One son of mine took 4 hours to fill out that dang Eagle Proposal even though he had it all figured it out because writing and computers were hard for him. Our Life to Eagle Coordinator (God Bless Her) spent those 4 hours on the phone talking him through it, asking him questions, encouraging him. He has problems communicating and having to solicit folks for fund raising was a major accomplishment for him but he needed some coaching. Seemed fair too me. He really wanted Eagle since Tiger and was very, very active scout other than that.

My other son could do it all on his own but is very dyslexic and has terrible time planning. I pretty much left him alone other than sitting him down when he was 6 months out with a Calendar and telling him the facts of life about all his remaining requirements and extracurriculars. He pulled everything off at the last minute and got lucky nothing went wrong but if it had it would be on him. He was very well liked by Scouts and Scouters and I had to tell folks to back off and let him struggle because he needed that experience.

Stopping at 90% is painful but why did he stop? Do you know? I see sometimes an act of teen rebellion, others poor planning. The best you can do is advise them of the pros and cons, maybe provide them some information, and remove any artificial road blocks. Do as a leader see a boy aging out as Life a failure? While getting a Mentor Pin is nice (alas we career ASM's seem to get so few compared to SM and Life to Eagle coordinators) I'd measure more did you help a youth through a rough patch or contribute toward making a better citizen or human being? 

2 minutes ago, David CO said:

...and this whole discussion on wood badge belongs in the wood badge forum.

This is the thread that just keeps on giving!

....and this is the point in the thread where someone brings up the whole Flavor Aid thing...

15 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I have many friends in scouting that have definitely "drunk the kool aid" of WB.  To them, God Bless them, it is the end all be all for scout leaders.  Critters, totems, walking sticks, coffee mugs, council strips etc etc.  Never mind your years of actual experience working in a unit, to really be a Scout leader need to be WB trained and then do district and council stuff, the troop work is soooo last year.

If I run in to them with my troop I always take the time to have some of my scouts come over, I introduce them to some actual scouts, remind them that at the end of the day, this is why we are involved as adult leaders...an actual scout at an actual outdoor function, doing actual scouting stuff.

Often sarcasm and cutting edge humor is lost on the WB nation.  Could be my cracks about the pink hankies and kilts.....

Like I said I am willing to be convinced of the benefit to my Troop but so far have not seen it. I see a lot of Wood Badgers at OA events and aside from constant interrupting of events to sing about their animal they tend to just cluster amongst themselves and shun folks who aren't Wood Badgers. It is quite off putting and not a good 'selling job'. I am sure it is beneficial to some folks who were never exposed to management training (especially small business owners) and some 'tickets' probably benefit some camps and councils. The Troop tickets I have seen seemed like a LOT more effort went into the planning and reporting than the actual project (how modern day BSA --a lot like the recent Eagle projects I see).

It makes some people happy and as long as our Boys are not subjected to hour long beading ceremony I will look the other way. While I probably have had hundreds of hours of various fads and fashions of management, organizational, and leadership training WB without a lot of actual woodcraft just does not appeal to me. Personally I am convicted more by my OA Oath and Obligation to serve fellow scouts and others.

Just like the best way to run a Troop is bottom up from the Patrol up so BSA should be run at the Troop level not the district and council level. I think WB may, intentionally or unintentionally reinforce that top down orientation. And that will be more adult oriented as they are the ones, not the youth, going to those nights and weekends of extra inside meetings. 

(I just think that too much girls in scouting controversy should go back on a separate thread)

I think I was fortunate to have entered my Troop at a time when there still were a few older Scouters that took newbie 'brown shirts' under their wing for part of that first year to keep me from mucking too much up. Later I tried to return the favor. That is how unit norms for greetings, handshakes, etc were passed down and how changes to BSA training and requirements were passed down.

I was also lucky to have been able to spend a week at Woodruff summer camp one year and take the Scoutmaster 'Merit Badge' under the legendary Sue Nunn. We basically did all the skills a boy would have to master on the path to First Class plus a lot of other stuff discussed on this forum. We were formed into patrols and I remember the "Dining Fly Challenge" we had to do with 8 poles and a canvas dining fly. Each patrol had to set it up next the dining hall on a Tuesday and you only passed if it was still up on Friday. We had a storm blow through on Thursday and ours was kinda katty-wampus and leaning. Humbling having to walk past your handiwork several times a day, I once heard a boy go "I wonder who did THAT one". Sue kept the Powerpoint to a minimum and we had a LOT of dutch oven drills.

I also remember sitting by the side of the road trying to practice a tautline hitch (I have a hard time with that one) and a 12 year old scout doing the 1st year program set up right next to me and without saying a thing started practicing his knots. He spied what I was doing and still without speaking showed me what I was doing wrong. In return (and in silence) I showed him one of my favorite knots 'the Zeppelin'. 

I am friends with our COR and we are both ASM's and go to the CO UMC  church. I think a majority of his time is spent apologizing for inadvertent damage to church property by rambunctious youth. Poor guy. Our CO sees us as part of their youth outreach and is pretty supportive but hands off. We have tried inviting the various pastors to a few events but they are pretty booked. I have encouraged our sometimes shy pastor to occasionally visit a meeting and remind anyone looking for a church that they are welcome there; he seems to feel this is crossing some kind of line. 

I do think that a church committee does review the Scoutmaster candidates, does an additional screen, and --on occasion-- interview them. Not one has been a member of our church but they do insist that they be a practicing believer and that the Troop support a few activities during the year. Other than a over-zealous church committee member pre-maturely tearing down our scout hut (and loosing zoning grandfather status) we have enjoyed a pretty good relationship. 

Hearing about all this again is just so depressing.

I know our unit used to renew the charters for some AWOL boys rather than purge the rolls every year because some of them are kinda half in and half out when they are in High School and half in is better than all out. We do that a lot less now because we have less funds to spare. We might keep a guy on an extra year unless we hear from the parents they are definitely out for good and place them in a 'Limbo Patrol' or something on a roster. So I guess the intent their is not to cheat.

Received the January Boys Life and January-February Scouter Magazines yesterday. My observations:

- Skimmed the Boys Life, seemed like a typical Holiday/Winters issue. Long article on spotting Depression which given what I have seen in Scouts and that we had a suicide this year was probably a good move. No mention of BS4G.

- Scouter. Banner on front page about girls in scouting. Carefully crafted FAQ inside (which should have been done a month or two ago) about the logic of the decision and the fact that many 'rogue' units where having sisters do things at many Packs anyway. I thought the article was OK though I found the discussions of all the reach out meetings and especially the survey was so overwhelmingly positive. As I now have little expectation that National will tell the truth if it conflicts with their goals--like gblotter I am more sad than angry now--it is frustrating to hear the CES say that the survey that I actually took and saw was very slanted was crafted to carefully ask people what they really thought --it was almost impossible to say "NO" to the proposal in that survey.

Overall the editorial content and style of Scouter seemed to thankfully return from the vague 'Family Camping' and generic  theme of the last few issues to the norm of requirements, leader tips, and interesting scout news items. I DO NOT think it was a coincidence that the 'Girls FAQ' was between the introductory message from the CES on how he met Green Bar Bill not once but twice and an actual article on Green Bar himself. I think some old timers were being placated or it was an attempt to send a signal. 

The article of Boys and Anger issues was a good one. I appreciate both magazines trying to educate on issues common to folks on the ground.

At least that was my opinion.

Love the video. Our historian did a "year in review" video at a previous COH and it was a bit melancholy since we lost a scout this year and you saw the pictures and videos of events with and without him. Especially hard to be in the room with the parents who are also major Troop leaders. Same year my youngest just got his Eagle. Real roller coaster. Still worth the trip, glad I was there for that boy and my son to say nothing of helping the walking emotional wounded.

We had our holiday party for the Troop...basically just a pot luck. No program just folks talking and laughing. Got to sit in on a BOR for a scout completing STAR rank...crackerjack lad, very active and no problems. Restored my faith in scouting again. Now that my boys have aged out still trying to get used to my 'elder statesman' status; fortunately there are a few older hand scouters who are giving me advice--it is trickier than I thought.

I appreciate Cubber's questions but can we not re-hash girls in scouts on this thread?

Even for the older boys the KISS principle is about the best to expect. I had a real hard time with my older boy, getting him to go up to folks and ask stuff. Kept coming to me and kept sending him back out all meeting. I was requested to come on campouts (just in case) but would turn my chair around so I wouldn't even see what he was struggling with. I get it, it can be hard.

To be fair to Wisconsin it is not so clear in your first year in the Troop where the land mines are. I think she is trying...the Forum is a much harder place to have these kinds of conversations than over a cup of coffee FTF.

16 hours ago, qwazse said:

It's like TT's my evil twin!

Regarding what the PLC has been working on ... that should be in the SM report. If not this time, let the SM know (maybe through your husband, who's an ASM, if I recall) that you'd really enjoy hearing more about what the PLC's decided.

P.S. - A lot of SMs' reports to committee are from the PLC's point of view. (E.g., the boys really liked X, they want to do Y, they had four advance in rank, we picked a new bugler, etc ...).

Evil? 

" I have watched too many youth flounder under the pressure from mom and dad, to only flourish once the parents backed off and gave the Scout space." Amen. I have rallied more than one reluctant Eagle with the "who cares what your parents want, what do YOU want" speech." One time the scout said "no one has ever asked me".

If your boy needs to ask and it is a problem for him have him make his own "to do" list for the meetings. (only 1-3 items). Not ideal but better than you doing it.