TAHAWK

I have attended or inspected about twenty council camps since 1983. As a rule, they allow group testing of MB candidates to meet the requirements where the candidate is to individually show he has acquired specified knowledge. That is, a question is asked to all the candidates. One Scout answers correctly. The others nod their heads, and all get credit for passing. This is contrary to BSA policy but is a well known practice.

Another, less common but not unusual practice is to simply hand out the MB whether or not the candidate has passed all of the requirements by any method of passing -- or has passed any of the requirements. Thus, we had a Scout "earn" pioneering who literally could not tie a single knot required for that MB. Nor had he done the required "project."

I have also seen a good many counselors who were unqualified by any reasonable standard. (Scoutcraft Area Director 2001: "We are now going to talk about Heat Stroke and Heat Exhaustion. They are the same thing and are treated the same. Who knows the treatment?" This was the same young man who discovered that not putting the wedges into new axes can producing exciting consequences.)

The one area of notable exception is field sports. For some reason they play it square.

Rick, we need to do this in stages I think.

STEP 1: Does anyone but Rick feel Scouting is not value-based?

******************************************************************************

Eamon, you say, "I was deeply saddened when I read that Patrols are no longer allowed to camp as Patrols without any adult supervision."

I presume you refer to G2SS, but having two (or more) adults "required" or "present" does not mean that they have to be involved in leading. To me, until I hear more, it does not mean they have to be in sight or within shouting distance. Alarm bells and the hated cell phones can push them pretty far away.

The right adults won't be a problem. The wrong adults don't need G2SS to be a problem.

As I explained to Rick some months ago, the lack of campsites within walking distance of the Orange County sprawl meant we had adults drive us on Patrol campouts in the late 1950's, but they kept to themselves -- as they had been emphatically instructed by the SM. We might see them drinking coffee and talking that adult stuff, but we pretty much forgot they were there until they asked if we were ready to go home Sunday afternoon. (Gee, I wonder why they didn't seem to want to eat with us? A hamburger that falls in the ashes is definitely still food.)

Eamon, you also say, "My feeling is that the Scoutmasters and the adults we have just don't have the know how to train the Scouts /PLC to be able to do this [organize, plan and carry out a real Patrol camp]. I'm not sure what went wrong, where it went wrong or how it went wrong. I know that the leaders I see just don't have the skills needed and worse still seem to have no interest in getting these skills."

That observation suggests a need for better training of adults in planning outdoor activities and and in passing those skills on to Scout leaders. EDGE is interesting, but not as nuts-and-boltsy as TTT.

We also need adults willing to let the Scout leaders lead. They won't learn how to apply skills by watching the adults exercise those skills any more than I reached a decent level of skill riding a bike solely by watching someone else ride (or, worse, listening to lectures on bike-riding).

If the adults don't know, they can't teach, and if they won't let go, the teaching can only foster frustration.

You also allude to Scouts who don't know how to plan. Once there was JLOW. One day was not much, but it was something. Now, the only leadership training outside the Troop are NYT and Philmont courses, They lack the coverage to be effective. National has promised a new district-level course for a decade, but lacks the wit or will to get the job done.

So the guys in the Red jackets can do. Put on a course. First we did it for our troop. Then we opened it to our district. Forty-five Scouts who were or wanted to be leaders attended. We didn't ask for permission. We didn't see that we needed any.

Finally, you also opine that "the leaders are not receiving the outdoor training that is needed." I presume you mean the adults. That is a sore spot with many veteran Scouters. As most here know, Wood Badge, once solely Scoutcraft instruction, now is limited to how to light a backpacking stove - sometimes taught by staff that does not know how to light a backpacking stove. Basic training when I retook it in 1982 had an outdoor weekend with twenty-four hours of outdoors skills training, some way past First Class level. Staff hjad to chase the learners way at 4:00 PM on Sunday. Instead, today, basic training ends with IOLS, which is supposed to be restricted to First-Class skills -- unless the adult pops for Powder Horn or Philmont courses. Few will do that, so the general level of outdoor skills declines.

So organize an Advanced Outdoor Skills Course. I started with the District Training Chairmen and gathered staff based on one criteria: "Who are the excellent presenters on outdoor skills and what will they be excited about presenting?" Happily abandon one-hour session limits. Add some youth staff. Open the course to Scout leaders and Venturing leaders instead of just adults. Things can really get rocking. The SE thinks it's a great idea. (After thirty-two years we have an SE who thinks training is important. One change he has made is eliminating all use fees for training events at the Council camp, halving the cost of training. And yes, he thinks outdoors skills training is important.)

Who knows if we can "win." But we can make some impact. Do not go gently into that good night.

Hey, Alabama. One section of the card at least says it is to be kept by the Counselor. Mine are in alpha order by name of Scout. Would you require redo rather than check with Counselor?

Forty Scouts sitting around a "counselor" for fifty minutes for five days getting "passed" as a group on requirements is a fraud, not to mention contrary to the national policy of individual qualification noted above.

Everyone knows it goes on at most, if not all, BSA summer camps. So what does that tell us?

W.Va. four years ago. twelve-year-old Scout runs into camp on Friday with Pioneering Blue Card all signed off. PL comes over and says said Scout can't tie a single knot needed for Pioneering. Turns out it's true. Pioneering Stakes? "What are those?" Project? "What project?" So I asked the 17-year-old in charge of Scoutcraft what was up, and he said effort was the only criteria. (Field Sports and Waterfront guys did not agree, thank God.) The Scout who tuned out to be unable to pass a single requirement was neither a mentally slow or an unenthusiastic Scout. His Eagle Court of Honor is in a couple of weeks. The problem was with the Council that turned Scoutcraft over to a team of unqualified youth. By the way, the Council supplied those youth with one axe, one hand axe, a box of matches, and a Trail Chef Cook Kit as the total equipment and supplies for the entire Scoutcraft area. Did I mention rope? No? That's because they had none - zip - nada. Not even twine. Pioneering without rope? (We went into Morgantown and bought them some 5/16 manila, as well as magnifying glasses, hot sparks, and cheap bow saws. They also borrowed backpacks and backpacking stoves from us. I had to sharpen their axes and WOULD NOT loan them our woods tools.) Didn't go back there.

Another Ohio camp famous for its truly fantastic facilities got the Canoeing kids in the water on Friday (Staff wter balloon fights had priority during the day.) and had a large Scoutcraft staff that, collectively, could not have passed for First Class. It was Week 1 of camp. By Tuesday the frustrated (and very competent) SC Area Director, who had no say in selection of "his" staff, had recruited our Troop's adults to run First Aid (We had a Fire Department EMT with us.), Pioneering, and Wilderness Survival while he ran the other MB's. What they did in Week 2 and subsequent, only Murphy knows. (They had super knowledgeable people at the climbing tower, Field Sports, and Nature, but Nature too was doing "group passes" on the "explain" and "show [knowledge]" requirements.

This sort of nonsense is a good reason to do your own SC at least every other year -- from Friday to second Sunday. Consider teaming with other like-minded troops.

But it's not just SC. As related above, it is also SM's who also grind the mill.

And it does not stop with those SM's. They have co-conspirators. Once had a SM asked me to sign twenty-five otherwise blank Blue Cards for Wilderness Survival MB and leave them on my porch so he could pick them up. He planned a "Wilderness Survival" meeting so his whole troop could "earn" the MB in one meeting - "or maybe two." He would "finish up" the Blue Cards. I politely declined. He found another registered counselor to do it. So its' also non-summer camp MBC's who also go along. I mentioned this to the District Advancement Chairman, who did zip.

Trustworthy?

All it takes for this to go on is good Scouters doing nothing about it.

More banners in action. Cleveland Codified Ordinances:

"(a) No person shall knowingly carry, have in his possession or ready at hand any . . . knife having a blade two and one-half inches in length or longer [e.g. a normal Swiss Army Knife]. . . while at or about a public place.

(b) As used in this section, "public place" means any place to which the general public has access and a right to resort for business, entertainment or other lawful purpose, but does not necessarily mean a place devoted solely to the uses of the public. It also includes the front or immediate area of any store, shop, restaurant, tavern or other place of business and any grounds, areas or parks where persons would congregate.

. . .

(d) This section shall not apply if any weapon in division (a) of this section was part of a public weapon display, show or exhibition, or was in the possession of a person participating in an organized match, competition or practice session.

. . .

(f) It is an affirmative defense to a charge under this section that the actor was not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a knife having a blade two and one-half inches in length or longer, and that either (i) the actor at the time was engaged in a lawful business or pursuit and that business or pursuit requires a knife having a blade two and one-half inches in length or longer as a tool of trade or pursuit, or (ii) the knife having a blade two and one-half inches in length or longer was kept ready at hand by the actor for defense purposes, while he was engaged in his lawful business or occupation, which business or occupation was of such character or at such a place as to render the actor particularly susceptible to criminal attack, such as would justify a prudent man in having such a knife ready at hand.

(g) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 601.13 and division (a) of Section 601.99, whoever violates this section is guilty of possessing certain weapons on or about public places and shall be fined not less than three hundred dollars ($300.00), nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), and imprisoned for not less than three (3) days, nor more than six (6) months. No part of this sentence shall, in any case whatsoever, be suspended or otherwise reduced.

(Ord. No. 1361-01. Passed 8-15-01, eff. 8-24-01)"

So is eating a steak at a restaurant a "lawful pursuit" so you can raise your affirmative defense at criminal trial? One hopes so. Really, this is another law only rolled out to pile on someone the law does not like. Otherwise, a weekend of business at McD's would fill the jails, an affirmative defense being no bar to arrest. After all, it does not say "steel" or even "metal." So that plastic "knife" with a 3" blade . . . .

(Imagine how stiff a minimum $300 fine was in 1901. Half a year's pay for many ordinary working people.)

"I use a 4inch sheath knife for hunting, sounds you guys are using swords."

You TERRIBLE PERSON! ^___^

Which guys? The authors of the Official BSA wilderness survival books? Them, heck yes. BIG blades! 12" blades and more. Can't be "sheath" anything because they come in scabbards. (No mention in G2SS about swords, spears, halberds, or maces.)

All my favorite Scouting fixed-blades have blades of 4" or less. Don't need a chopper because I have a folding saw. 4" is just . . . handy.

I think BSA issued one 5" fixed-blade by Union Cutlery (later Ka-Bar Cutlery) and several 4"+ models during the fifty years of BSA sheath knives.

In my troop as a Scout, lots had surplus MK. II's -- 7" blade. Others had different surplus issue knives, mostly Mk I's and Q225's, with 4-5" blades. Military did a study after the War ("the War" = WWII) and found the overwhelming use of the various sheath knives issued was opening cans of food. Can openers being cheaper, issue of sheath knives was sharply curtailed.

BSA sells a lock-blade with a 4" blade, which when locked works a lot like a 4" sheath knife, except more prone to failure.

If the "Blue Card" is required, you would think the official training material for MBC's would say so. But I guess lots of BSA literature is poorly done.

Because both councils I have Scouted in used them, I believed they were SOP.

Training material: http://www.scouting.org/training/adult/supplemental/meritbadgecounselorinstructorsguide.aspx

I know the two district MB registrars I work with are both having a tough time with the impact of required YPT.

So regulations are making Scouting less fum for adults?

Yet we still go to Canada, which adds a whole added layer of regs. -- especially thanks to the current U.S. government.

We have a Committee member who has most of this on word-processing (like all the driver info) and works near the Service Center. That makes it much less burdensome for the commissioned Scouters.

Scouting has traditionally been values-based, as two of the primary goals of Scouting have always been producing good people and good citizens. As you know, Rick, the values of Scouting, particularly the Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan, were formulated by adults, such as BP. I guess that makes Scouting's values the "result" of Scouts associating with adults.

Scouting's traditional attention to values does not diminish the importance of the outdoor program. One ought not blame Scouting's traditional values for the poor choices made by the corporation, especially in the early 1970's. Conceding that behavior trumps words, BSA says in 2011 that the outdoor program is Scouting's most important method. In 2011, my troop tent-camps every month, as do some other troops. Living where you do, you will appreciate what that means for Scouting in northeast Ohio. Less camping is typically a choice, not a BSA program standard.

Scouting, of course, does not regard the only importance of the outdoor program as being the occasion to "sit side by side with adults of character." Scouting since BP sees the outdoor program as the primary draw for boys ("bait" BP) and a golden opportunity to build good, physically fit people, and good citizens through the "game" of Scouting. That "game," indoors, is always a pale imitation of the real thing.

Simply as a matter of history (those inconvenient facts) Boards of Review when I was a Scout were all adults. They were also FAR tougher on values than Boards I have witnessed or heard about in the last thirty years. In the 1950,'s, Scouts were regularly told they needed to "come back" solely because they could not describe how they did a "Good Turn daily or how they had done their best to do so. I recall being asked, "Describe how you show that you are trustworthy" by my Board for Second Class (Gulp!).

During the relatively few, non-traditional years that Boards of Review were conducted by Scouts in the U.S., there was no official training unit for Boards of Review, and only very good training kept the Scouts from being far tougher on advancement candidates than adults, especially on matters of Scout skills but also on matters of values.

It is good, Rick, to see you list "citizenship" as an aim of "traditional" scouting. You have, in the past on this forum, contended that scouting was never about citizenship development. But what do we make of characterizing "citizenship" as the "single aim" of "traditional" scouting. And this characterization only one sentence removed from mentioning "character"? Scouting has always added character and fitness to citizenship as goals.

Certainly, BSA has never gone as far towards patrol autonomy as did BP in his early early writings. Neither has Scouting in the U.K followed that vision after its very earliest years. So we have labored on for over a century not doing it in what you call the "traditional" way. That seems to make the BSA's way "traditional." Nevertheless, I will again concede that adults are more "present" than I remember them being over fifty years ago.

But even you, Rick, seem to have adults present in your model. Otherwise, how could they pounce upon "teachable moments" as you have described. Of course, in the Age of the Lawsuit, BSA has more in mind than "teachable moments."

And Rick, in all my Scouting I was never with a unit that had adults appoint the Scout leaders as you have advocated. Oh, I know it has always gone on, but how "traditional" is that?

As to "extreme camping," that has never been part of Scouting, Rick, except by accident. Not traditional at all.

Ah, the Uniform. 100% Sanforized cotton. OD. (Some of the adults moaned about the loss of the khaki uniform.) As I recall, you would not have approved of 100% cotton. Still, after almost thirty years of Oscar, the uniform is less commonly worn on outings these days than when I was a Scout (1954-1961). However, more recently, the Uniform is again reasonably practical to wear in the out-of-doors. It may become more of a norm again. But, Rick, except in Rockwell's paintings, the Uniform was never 100% in the outdoor program except at camporees. It was especially rare when backpacking. (I saw my first group backpacking in 100% uniform at Philmont in 1989. We than used all of out sunburn first aid materials to try and deal with the results of three days that crew was in BSA baseball caps and Scout shorts. "Crispy Critters." Hats and trousers sure would have been better.)

The uniform IS, and has always been, a method of Scouting, as is the more important outdoor program. Defining the Uniform as merely a part of the outdoor program thus is not traditional.

I yearn for things Scouting that once were and even for things that never were. There is a difference.

"The francisca (or francesca) is a throwing axe used as a weapon during the Early Middle Ages by the Franks, among whom it was a characteristic national weapon at the time of the Merovingians from about 500 to 750 AD and is known to have been used during the reign of Charlemagne (768 - 814).[1] Although generally associated with the Franks, it was also used by other Germanic peoples of the period including the Anglo-Saxons, and several examples have been found in England."

"'Raining all day. Grass on hill very slippery. So .................................... ^___^ '

That's pretty close to sledding. I trust everyone wore helmets."

G@SS: "The use of helmets is required for the following activities: downhill skiing, snowboarding and operating snowmobiles (requires full face helmets)."

July

No snow

No skies

No snowboards

No machinery (just kids)

Helmets not required for sledding

Conclusion: sliding on wet grass OK sans helmets. Happy Day!!!

(NO eating worms unless very hungry.)

Spreading mulch for church /CO. Found many worms. WORM RACES!!! FUN!!!!!

(Worms not canned.) (Misting keeps your "steeds" in good shape to race.)

Raining all day. Grass on hill very slippery. So .................................... ^___^(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

Even on a forum like this, with folks who know a great deal about Scouting, it remains hard to get an accurate statement of BSA policy on knives.

"A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility." G2SS 2011

Note that the B.S.A. does not discourage, much less ban, the use of sheath knives or fixed-blade knives in general. It is the "large" sheath knife (whatever that means) that draws the word "avoid" -- except for cleaning fish. (Apparently a "large sheath knife" becomes better when cleaning fish.)

That BSA policy is well since the BSA continues to sell fixed-blade knives and they are used routinely in summer camp programs like wood-carving and fishing (i.e., hunting for, killing, dressing, and consuming fish.)

And how can we "instill ... the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store" sheath and other fixed-blade knives - including for cooking -- if we ban them AND IF WE OMIT ALL MENTION OF THEM FROM THE BSHB?

Neither the BSA policy nor the contrary bans of fixed-blade knives are about safety. BSA does not mention safety as a consideration. If safety were a consideration, axes and slip-joint knives (non-locking folders) would be banned long before reasonable fixed-blade knives. It is about image, political correctness, and safety theater.

This is also not about applying judgment because there is no effort by banners to distinguish between a knife optimized as a weapon (a "dagger,"or a "tanto" for examples) and the purely utility patterns.

Finally, it is not about knowledge or experience because the banners have little knowledge of knives or experience in their use OR misuse. Knowledgeable persons know that far more knives intended as weapons are locking folders rather than fixed-blade knives and that, by far, the most common woods tool accident is "closed knife on finger(s)."

It is true that most of the chores in camp can be accomplished with a frail a tool as the BSA "Scout" pattern slip-joint.

In wilderness, "backcountry" areas, however, the fixed-blade knife comes into its own, which is why the two official BSA books on Wilderness Survival both suggest the carrying of very large knives such as khukuris or bolos. (By "book" I exclude the awful Wilderness Survival Merit badge pamphlet.) The fixed-blade knife is simply more capable of processing wood than even a good folder, and in the wilderness the ability to make a fire from wood that may be wet on the outside could be, and has been, critical.

As a side-note, when I learned two years ago that a certain council camp totally banned all fixed-blade knives from the camp property, I called the authorities, explained that we were coming to camp, and asked if that ban truly extended to "kitchen" knives and my wood-carving set. That led to an amicable discussion in which the camp director confessed he had no idea what the ban meant or why it was imposed. He also volunteered that, as I expected, the camp "trading post" sold sheath knives (specifically for fishing MB candidates) and manifestly fixed-blade "kitchen" knives. In the end, he said we should bring whatever knives we wished, but asked that we not have "Scouts going around camp with big, honkin' sheath knives flopping from their belts." THAT, friends, would be someone exercising judgment.

"Trust should be the basis of all our moral training."

Baden Powell

"The entire thrust of 'Zero Tolerance' is to exercise no judgment, that is to be arbitrary."

www.rutherford.org

"Say what you mean, and mean what you say."

Trad

They have pretty good fun building long but low bridges over the inlet where we used to do the towers. (Rangers think its a blast and gather material for us. (Wonderful guys and gals and very supportive.)

We also build a carousel pretty regularly.

Trebuchet throws water balloons wonderfully well at man-pshaped targets (Scouts and Scouters). I think that's OK.

We go to Canada every other year to Dorchester Camporee, and they can USE a monster rope bridge. However, per a memo from organizers, starting 2012 only certified professionals can operate the zip lines at Scouts Canada events.

Older Scouts get to feel wind whip by from tops of mountains and see the sun rise over the edge of the world.

Still lots of good stuff.

No I do not, if you mean fun for Scouts.

The only rule change in the last twenty years that our Scouts noticed were the restrictions on pioneering structures. They really liked 20' towers, and no one ever fell. But time passes and those who miss those towers today are all adults. Will a Scout have less character, citizenship, or physical and mental fitness because we don't build those towers? I think not.

In the meanwhile, the refusal of a majority of adults in Scouting to allow the youth leadership has been there generation after generation. THAT counts. (Scoutmaster explaining to Roundtable why all Scout leaders are appointed in his Troop, October 1984: "They just won't elect the right leaders." SPL to Scoutmaster June 16, 2011: "Do you have an agenda for tonight's meeting.")

Scouts have been injured playing on grass.

Scouts have been injured playing in snow.

Scouts have died playing in water.

Scouts have been injured using knives, axes, ropes, and cooking pots.

Scouts have been injured climbing trees.

Scouts have been killed and seriously injured - many times - riding in cars.

Scouts have been injured using fires.

Grass, snow, water, knives, axes, ropes, cooking pots, trees, cars, and fires have not been prohibited by BSA. Instead, we have, more or less, reasonable rules about how such things fit Scouting.

Liquid alcohol is far less dangerous than the "approved" naptha (AKA "Coleman Fuel.")

I don't mind rules. I do mind irrational rules created by folks with little knowledge of the field they seek to control.

If someone makes 1000's of an object for sale, those objects are not "homemade" by the common definition of that word. But of course a new rule can ban their products as well. After all, the Wilderness Survival Merit badge pamphlet warns that dryer lint used as tinder is dangerous because "highly flammable." Imagine that, highly flammable tinder. What next?

(But it's OK to publish dangerously incorrect advice on treating wild water.)

IIRC there were 37,000 Google hits.

Thank you. Very interesting and extremely ignorant.

Liquid alcohol is discouraged while the much more dangerous naphtha is AOK.

I could see a weak argument against alcohol on the grounds that the flames are invisible, but jelled alcohol is AOK.

Fortunately, my alcohol stoves are all manufactured by companies, including the pop can stove. Really excellent for heating food, although not my choice for cooking pasta.

Typical no thought rule.

Notice we teach consensus to solve conflicts in opinion, but the actual behavior is very directive and top down. "Do as I say . . ."

Will someone please provide me a link to the rule outlawing "home-made" stoves? Thank you.

(I will try to find it in the meanwhile. Always interested in zero-thought rules.)

"Has anyone ever found a source for a rain cover for the official campaign hat?"

Check law enforcement suppliers. Many law enforcement officers wear hats shaped like the campaign hat and wear rain covers on those hats. Here is just one result from Googling rain cover hat: http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=102

Misc. ramblings.

BSA policy on sex and religion are certainly interesting subjects for discussion. As to religion, I learned this many years ago when my tent-mate explained why he, a Buddhist, didn't join in prayers: "No one to pray to." Yet we have had Buddhist troops since the 1920's and there is a BSA-recognized religious award for Buddhist Scouts - who recognize no creator deity.

Is there an implicit belief that the European view is superior to the African and Middle Eastern view, as well as the BSA view? Of course there is. Silly question.

BSA is not the largest Scout organization in terms of membership, or even the largest youth organization in the U.S. The largest Scout organization is that of Indonesia.

We had a Chinese exchange student live with us for two weeks some twenty years ago. He wanted to cook us a proper Chinese meal, but all of our knives were "wrong" because they were beveled on both sides instead of one side (like a chisel). "Everyone" know bevel on one side was only proper way. Almost everything about the U.S. was wrong to some extent. He wanted to live in the U.S. He lives in the U.S. now. Wonder where he gets his knives.

I never met my uncle Robert. I was only two when he was buried in France. My Mom said he was quiet and polite. He is buried pretty close to the burial site for a great uncle, Arthur, killed in France in 1918. Uncle William was a merchant seaman on a ship torpedoed on a convoy to the U.K. before we formally entered WWII. He's down there somewhere. Not sure if any of them thought too well of things American, but they are just as dead. I think of them when the labels start appearing.

My son spent two weeks in Europe through his high school French class - Italy, France and Germany. He had a great time. Thought it was crowded and the French spoke a tad too fast for him to understand. Couldn't understand German at all but liked Germans and Germany.

My son married a Japanese girl. She had come to the U.S. for undergrad and grad school and stayed because, as a female, her professional prospects were much better in the U.S.

We go to a Canadian camporee every other year. They have incredible security - mainly because it's Scouts Canada. There have been "complete dates" every time we have gone -- two couples caught last time. Not air. Not water. Hard wired. "Like rabbits" I was told - several times. (Our Scouts seem divided [largely by age] into two reactions to Scouts Canada: "Girls! Yuck!" and "Girls! Wow!!" I worry about the ones that just stare off into space. "Hi guys!!")

Many people came here because they did not like how things were done where they came from. On my Dad's side, they came in chains, being on the wrong side in the "42." On my Mom's side, they came for religious freedom, not being C of E. Being told we do things differently from where those people fled is not, ipso facto, a bad thing to many, if not most. Our current legislative majority, for example, cannot fire our highest court. We like it that way, as the UK likes it their way. (Just don't get caught in the UK with any knife unless you can tell the nice policeman why you have a knife. Burden is on you. And don't go to Cleveland, Ohio and "possess in a public place" any "knife" with "a blade 2.5" or longer unless it is necessary for your occupation. Illegal. Makes it tough to eat dinner. Is that an occupation? ^___^)

BSA is a corporation with no published telephone number, mailing address, or email address. One wonders what is discussed in the puzzle palace, by whom, and with what objectives beyond fund-raising.

The first aid requirement for Wilderness Survival (and many other MB's) is fairly strange. Read it carefully. It unambiguously requires the candidate to "show" first aid for(and how to prevent) injuries or illnesses "that could occur in backcountry settings." Examples follow, but examples do not limit the generality of the requirement. Passing that requirement should only take 100's of hours. Let's see, how to prevent and give first aid for Bubonic Plague? (Which occurs in the backcountry of the U.S.) Hantavirus? (ditto) Gun shot? (ditto) Now tell me each candidate passes the same requirements.

Requiring a candidate for that same merit badge to recite survival priorities in a pre-determined order is entirely strange. (Let's see. The boat is sinking. Start a fire and gather water.) The priority will be set by the situation.

As for the chicken caper, the Wilderness Survival Merit Badge was once a primitive living MB authored by the leading U.S. expert in that sort of "survival," Larry Dean Olsen. The candidate was required to demonstrate "a knowledge" of how to use animals for supplies. "The meat is the part most commonly used." "While still warm, the stomach and intestines and bladder should be cleaned of their contents, leaving only the outer wall. This can then be used as a water bag of food-storage pouch." Four pages dealt with traps and snares. So killing, processing, and consuming a chicken was not even slightly strange.

The troop in which I was a Scout and, eventually Scoutmaster, did its own Summer Camp every other year. Same for the troop where I was an SA for 24 years.

You need a solid adult for food. It can be a big plus instead of a problem. The Scouts can plan the menu with good counsel. Iron Chef?

What MB's to offer? For which MB's do you have the best teachers?

No need to have hour-long sessions like "regular" SC. Whatever fits.

You may be able to rent a Scout camp. That solves a good many physical problems, like poles for pioneering, refrigerators, picnic shelters, etc. In the troop mentioned secondly above, each patrol had it's own "Troop site."

And the "week" can be a week, instead of five days. ^____^

I emailed to the museum and simply asked if any current display material related to Bill. I did not identify this forum or refer to the comments of the docent reported above. This is the reply I received within twenty-four hours:

"As to your question regarding Bill Hillcourt; currently there are no exhibits featuring Mr. Hillcourt, but in 2009 we had a display of Hillcourt memorabilia which was on exhibit for the entire year. I am attaching some photos. As to the issues discussed on that forum, I do not know which docent they spoke to, but those comments should not be held as representative of the entire BSA. I hope this helps to answer your questions. Thank you.

Gail Mayfield | Assistant Curator

BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

National Scouting Museum"

Bill, of course, retired in August, 1965.

Having worked for decades and retired after winning the fight to establish the patrol method in an outdoor-oriented program, Bill must have been shocked by the "Improved" program rolled out in 1972.

(West was famously suspicious of boy leadership. He wrote of the dangers it presented - in his mind. As for patrols, West suggested that Scouts to be distributed between counselors at summer camp, rather than camping in patrols or troops. Very YMCA. West even suggested that Scoutmasters be employees of B.S.A. It was all about control.)

(It says a lot that the authors of the 1972 disaster "discovered" that Scouting was "urban-centered." It had been strongest in cities and suburbs from the beginning. It also says a lot that they never bother to "ask" the customers what product they wanted. After all, they new better than the kids.)

Why it took until 1976 to start rolling back the "improvements" with "All Out for Scouting" (developed by Bill) is as great a mystery as the changes in 1972. Took until 1978 to officially scrap "The Improved Scouting program."

Bill, of course, was involved in the writing of the Patrol Leader Handbook 3rd Ed., replacing the ghastly "Patrol and Troop Leadership Handbook." I suspect nothing published by BSA since has been as useful to a Patrol Leader.

I was lucky to meet Bill twice. Once was at a multi-council 75th anniversary camporee in 1985. He signed Handbooks for many hours. During a break due to rain, I and two other Scouters got to speak to him - well, largely listen to this fascinating man -- for nearly an hour. At the show that night, he refused to escape the misty rain by standing under the canopy erected for the "bigs." He stood in the rain in his hat and red jacket, sharing the conditions the Scouts were enduring. The paid folk sent out aids to hold an umbrella over him, but he kept moving away. The Scouts saw it and I could hear them commenting that "Bill" was "out here in the rain like us." Eventually, they began applauding. The leading big shots (SE'and counsel officers) reluctantly emerged from the canopy, but they each had an underling holding umbrellas.

In 1992, he honored us by attending our Wood Badge reunion breakfast. He was obviously declining physically, but his mind was intact, as was his sense of humor. He singed a good many T-shirts, books, and whatever.

Then he was suddenly gone.

The corporation failing, it is up to Scouting to keep his memory green.