TAHAWK

The misinformation in the Wilderness Survival Merit Badge pamphlet regarding purification of wild water has found its way into the new Handbook.

The 12th ed. states on page 267 that water can be made "safe for drinking" by boiling, commercial filters, or treatment with "water treatment tablets," illustrated by iodine and sodium hypochlorite tablets.

Had the text merely said "safer," the shortcomings are less. As it is, the information is seriously misleading, even without regard to chemical pollution.

Only one filter has been approved by the EPA to remove all biological threats, the Sawyer Water Purifier (.02 micron), and we have little field experience with it.

The chemicals shown are not safe to remove the threat of cryptosporidium, as we have known since 1993, or giardia. Both are very common in wild water, being carried by all mammels. Chlorine dioxide is safer, but takes hours to work effectively against the most resistent "germs."

A good commercial filter follwed by water treatment chemicals is very safe against biological threats, as is boiling.

This is commonly available information, obtainable in relatively few minutes by a Google search from agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control, Wilderness Medical Society, and The American Red Cross.

Some filters have some effect against chemical pollution, depending on how badly polluted the water is. Avoidance seems an overlooked topic.

No argument from me about the centrality of the Outdoor Program to Boy Scouting and Venturing. But Wood Badge is now for Cubbing leaders as well, and the outdoors does not seem as central to Varsity Scouting.

In any case, there is an identification here of a void in training that is not being filed by the offerings at Philmont. That need can be filled by Districts and Councils. Some are already addressing the need. We can all be champions for advanced outdoor skills training wherever we are.

"I think it tells a deeper story. One about the direction of BSA. Its away from creating well rounded, confident outdoorsmen and towards creating well rounded, confident managers."

"Its not that I'm against WB. Far from it. My perception is that WB is the pinnacle training of an outdoor program, when it does not graduate outdoorsmen."

Garn, I looked and looked. I went way back in Scouting literature. Here is what I did NOT find:

"On my honor, I will do my best to become a well-rounded outdoorsman, . . . ."

"A Scout is: . . . a well-rounded outdoorsman."

To state the obvious, the Outdoor Program is A method - one of the methods designed to meet Scouting's aims of character, citizenship, and fitness in mind and body. It happens to be a method I love and elect to spend a lot of time on. I counsel Camping, Cooking, Hiking, Backpacking, and Wilderness Survival (which I think should be Eagle required). The Troop in which I am an SA tents every month here in Ohio -- or elsewhere on high adventure trips. But the goal is not, and has never been, to "create well-rounded outdoorsmen." As adults, we should not be confused between what BP called the "hook" and what he called the "bait."

That is not to say that there is anything wrong with wanting more outdoors skills instruction for Scouts and Scouters. A course to follow-up on IOLS would be good. Do it. My Council will be offering such a course.

By the way, labeling Wood Badge as "management" or "business" training rather than leadership training appeals to some as sound tactics for debate ("Fight the Hun"). It does not advance analysis. The issues, I think, are the absence of outdoor skills training in WB and whether the skills taught in WB assist the Scouter in leading and teaching youth. Many of the those leadership skills are common to both the second and present versions of Wood Badge. I think they help. (I do wish the syllabus was better.)

Both the second version of Wood Badge and the current version are heavy on modeling the Patrol Method.

As noted, the pattern of explain and show, followed by application, is traditional Scouting - at least as old as 1954 from my personal experience.

The first example of the "EDGE" approach to teaching in the current course is teaching use of a backpacking stove. That hardly seems like an especially "indoor" or "corporate" topic, unless we're talking about Coleman USA.

"I can only speak of NY's laws, but most states are the same. Handling controlled drugs without being licensed is a class A Misd. and depending on circumstances a felony."

Not sure if by "controlled drugs" you mean "controlled substances," "prescription substances," or both.

Those who buy drugs prescribed by ther physician possess them without a license. That's millions and millions of folks. So there must be an exception for possessing drugs prescribed to them.

Parents who possess drugs prescibed for their children?

Is there an exception for parents possessing drugs for their children?

Exception for those acting in loco parentis? "The phrase person in loco parentis in R.C. 2907.03(A)(5) applies to a person who has assumed the dominant parental role and is relied upon by the child for support. This statutory provision was not designed for teachers, coaches, scout leaders, or any other persons who might temporarily have some disciplinary control over a child. Simply put, the statute applies to the people the child goes home to."

Can you give us the NY language to assist in Google searches for similar law in other states?(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

For purposes of discussion, but with serious intent, what about the Troop meeting once a month and the Patrols every week? Maybe supplemented by a lengthy PLC meeting once a month?

I too have complaints about he quality, substance, and practicality of most BSA syllabii. Times allocated are often barely enough to read through the text and far to short for an "interactive discussion." Aims and Methods in one syllabus manages to never list the three Aims of Scouting, perhaps because only 15 minutes are allocated to the topic. Many sections seem written by folks who simply do not understand the material very well.

But why decide the extent to which the Scoutmaster SA Specific Training syllabus supports or weakens the Patrol Method by deliberately ignoring most of the syllabus or the documents that it incorporates by reference?

Patrol Modeling

Participants will be formed into groups identified as patrols. To model the patrol method, the ideal group size will be six to eight participants. . . .There are enough patrol/team activities to allow the participants to experience firsthand the feel of belonging to a patrol and to allow the instructors to model the patrol method both in theory and by example. P. 9 of syllabus

Nearly everything you need to know about being a Scoutmaster is in the Scoutmaster handbook. P. 24 of syllabus

(That would include Chapter 3 The Boy Led Troop: He [the Patrol Leader] takes responsibility for the patrols activities and represents the patrol as a member of the patrol leaders council.

That would also include Chapter 4 The Boy Led Patrol. Wanna guess if that chapter insists that the Patrol and Troop mean the same thing?)

The building blocks of a Scout troop are its patrols.

PATROLS

A patrol is the basic organizational unit of a Scout troop. Composed of six to eight boys, it is a good size to plan and carry out projects, to hike, and camp together, to taker part in troop games and events, and to practice leadership on a manageable scale. P. 33 of syllabus.

(Participants can find more information on patrol leaders in The Scoutmaster handbook, Chapter 4, The Boy-Led Patrol. P. 35 of Syllabus.

The troop meeting plan [Troop Meeting Plan] involves seven distinct steps.

. . .

Patrol Meetings [its time for each patrol to go to its designated meeting area p. 45]

Interpatrol Activity

P. 43 of Syllabus.

The patrol leaders council allows the senior patrol leader , patrol leaders , and trop guides to plan the troops program. P. 64 of Syllabus.

At a minimum, Scouts should spend at least 10 days and nights outdoors each year. Among the opportunities for making that happen are:

Troop and patrol hikes

. . . P. 79 of Syllabus

Lead participants through the experience of a patrol planning for an outdoor activity. P. 95 of Syllabus

Each patrol leader presents the general plan and options to his patrol for discussion. . . . After the patrol leaders have gotten the input of patrol members, the patrol leaders council and other key troop leaders are ready to meet. P. 123 of Syllabus (GETTING PATROL INPUT)

And, as further context, the distinction between the Patrol and the Troop is also portrayed in the Patrol Leaders Handbook, The Boy Scout Handbook, and the BSA website.

I believe that you are correct on an overall tendency over many years to elevate the centrality of the Troop over that of the Patrol. That could be seen in many Troops in the late 1950's where I Scouted and is certainly true today when many Scoutmasters do not conform to the idea of boy-leadership in any sense. A few years ago, by show of hands at a Roundtable, ony 40% of the Troops had PL's elected by the Scouts and less than 20% had SPL's elected by Scouts - any Scouts. To a control-freak adult, patrols off doing their own thing are a nightmare. In Wood Badge terms, they never get past directive or prescriptive approaches to getting things done -- or they try to do it themselves.

Frank Clark observed that being among those who don't agree with us is a growth opportunity. If you were not to steadfast in your opposition to so much of what I find satisfying in Scouting, I would not have devoted nearly so much time to thinking about how we agree and disagree -- and why.

Rick, you have said, Trustworthy deals with facts that can be verified. That is my reason for participating in public discussions.

Yet, you repeatedly quote the website of White Stag (Of whose devotees it is fair to say, "He loves them not.") for a quote from a third party, Larson (equally in bad flavor with you) as the sole source for the proposition that Bill (then six-seven years retired from BSA) was supposedly hostile towards the then-new Wood Badge course. So White Stag (NOT BSA) says that Larsen said that Bill said . . . Can we not verify this supposed exchange by some primary source? Such comments by Bill would be consistent with his running a back-to-Scoutcraft Wood Badge Course in Ohio in 1988 (+/-) but inconsistent with his coming to Cleveland in 1992 to support fund-raising for the now superseded White Stag courses here.

Regarding White Stag and its alleged assault on the Patrol method, you posted:

The following clearly indicates that the purpose of regular elections is to encourage very rapid turnover: "To give more youths the opportunity to lead, most troops elect patrol leaders twice a year. Some may have elections more often."

To answer the topic question: Six month election cycles is why "Real Patrols" are no longer defined by a Patrol Leader's ability to lead regular Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without direct adult supervision. This allows White Stag to end position-specific training for Patrol Leaders so that generic training can concentrate on indoor manager skills rather than on applied Scoutcraft adventures.

I noted that The Scoutmasters Handbook spoke of terms of office for PLs (pls?) generally being six months, but may be more or less depending.

You replied that such language must be understood in what you

claim to be surrounding circumstances context, if you will -- where Bills editorial control over the SMHB was declining, implying that this language was not really Bills.

This is unsatisfying, to me at least, on several grounds:

1. How is this change in 1959 attributable to post 1972 White Stag WB?

2. How is the claim and the implied fact verified?

3. The FOURTH EDITION (1947) says: As a general rule, a Patrol leader stays in office as long as he gets results, or until he moves into another leadership position. In some cases it is well to agree on a term office say six months or a year with the Patrol Leader eligible for reelection. This may simplify matters where a boy proves a poor Patrol Leader and may have to give up his job to a better leader. P. 50.

Recognizing that not all change is improvement (So Change is Good is rather silly.), may I observe that some people change their ideas over time.

And I suspect you vastly overrate the "power" of Wood Badge to have been moving in the background since 1947 to undue reasonable terms for PL's (which I think would be one year).

When I suggested that you might want to stop teaching what you believe is anti-Patrol Method language in the syllabus, you replied: What is the point of going off the reservation at the Council level? Nobody there can influence national policy

In reply, may I respectfully observe: 1) White Stag was off the reservation for years (and some feel it is once more); and 2) You could influence Scouting where you are; not an petty aspiration for most of us.

Then there is Wood Badge sucks because it changes the meaning of the term "Patrol Method" from Patrol-based Scoutcraft adventure to teaching Troop-based business manager theory."

Rick, you know that Wood Badge models, and thereby teaches, that the patrol is led by the elected patrol leader, and has independent existence and independent activities, some in the outdoors, at which troop-level leaders are present by invitation only.

Wood Badge teaches: "The uniqueness of Scouting is the patrol method. The use of the natural gang of six or eight boys who elect their own leader and plan and carry out many of their own activities is a democracy in microcosm. Here young men learn the give and take of working with people as they must surely do all their lives. Here, too, they are given leadership and learning opportunities which prepare them for their future roles as citizens. It is for this reason that it is so crucial that all adults understand thoroughly the patrol method."

Woodbadge.org

There is no dispute that the shift away from Scoutcraft from 1972 to 2001 leaves far, far less outdoor skills training than was part of the "official" training sequence under the original course -- or even in the second course. We have IOLS and whatever "intermediate" training finds it's way into Baden-Powell Institute, University of Scouting, or whatever you call annual intermeniate training days in your Council.

Worse in my Council, our former SE pushed one-day, indoor IOLS. He's gone, and the pretend IOLS with him. Thsoe who needed training the most got it the least.

Because the outdoor program is what attracts most kids and is still a "Method," there should be outdoor skills training beyond IOLS. It exists as a weekend course in some Councils. Our new SE has no objection, and lots of Scouters have expressed interest. So we are apparently going to give it a spin in 2010. If enough Councils start doing advanced outdoor skills training, it may be adopted as "official." (Didn't someone suggest that very thing?) But even if it' not "official," it can be a reality "on the ground" if we make it so.

The lack of training of adults is probably reflected in the lower levels of outdoor skills amongst the Scouts. The biggest problem for candidates to meet the "fires" requirement for Wilderness Survival MB is that the candidates simply are not skilled is starting fires - any fire.

Rick ("Kudu") posted:

"Trustworthy deals with facts that can be verified. That is my reason for participating in public discussions."

. . .

"White Stag Wood Badge killed Patrol Leader Training in 1972: Sorry no more position-specific training for Patrol Leaders."

The topic is changes in training, and the BSA model for training of Patrol leaders has changed over the years.

One thing has remained consistent: training of Patrol Leaders, by that specific position title, has been described as the responsibility of the Scoutmaster in every edition of the Scoutmaster's or Scoutmaster Handbook from 1947 to date.

In the 5th Edition (1959-1972), Bill Hillcourt described it in "Tool - 3" "Patrol Leader's Training."

In the 7th Edition (1981-1990), it is covered in Training Junior Leaders. The first learning objective for "Junior Leaders" is "State the duties of a patrol leader." Literature to be used is The Patrol Leader's Handbook, SMHB, BSHB.

In the 8th Edition (1990-1998), it is stated that each Scout leadership position is different, that training is tailored to the position, and that, in contrast to other Scout leadership positiion, the trainers for the "Patrol Leader" are the SM and SPL.

The 1998 SMHB describes "challenges" for Scout leaders in terms of what look remarkably like those unique to a Patrol Leader's responsibilities and, again, indicates that the SM and SPL are the appropriate persons for intorductory training of the Patrol Leader (except the New Scout Patrol Leader).

As a personal aside, I know that in 1984 and for years thereafter the district-level training for "junior leaders" here in Cleveland began with a session entitled "Welcome to Scouting's Toughest Job" [PL]. Kt was assumed, as Bill Hillcourt wrote, that non-PL Scout leaders need to know the PL's job. The training was very little different from the district-level junior leaders training I helped with in the later 1950's and early 1960's. We weren't in the woods then either.

Do the various plans for training PL's differ over the years from Bill Hillcourt's? Certainly they do. The emphasis on training out-of-doors is not longer the model, and it was not the model where I Scouted by 1957. But it is simply factually incorrect to say the training of PL's, by that title, ceased to exist in 1972.

Your claim also assumes that official BSA literature determines what training is, in fact, given.

Rick ("Kudu")posted:

"2) The following clearly indicates that the purpose of regular elections is to encourage very rapid turnover: "To give more youths the opportunity to lead, most troops elect patrol leaders twice a year. Some may have elections more often."

To answer the topic question: Six month election cycles is why "Real Patrols" are no longer defined by a Patrol Leader's ability to lead regular Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts without direct adult supervision. This allows White Stag to end position-specific training for Patrol Leaders so that generic training can concentrate on indoor manager skills rather than on applied Scoutcraft adventures. "

Bill Hillcourt, not "White Stag," suggested six-month -- OR SHORTER -- terms for PL's in the 4th and 5th Editions of the Scoutmaster's Handbook; "Generally the term of office is about six months, but may be more of less depending on your situation." ("Setting Up the Patrol Method, Term of Office")

In any case, a six-month term of office may end with an election of the same PL if he suits the Scouts.

In our Troop, the Scouts have decided, and continue to support, year-long terms, with the right to ask the PLC to hold a new election sooner for cause.

I am engaged in a civilized discussion with individuals at National Council about problems I see with the Wilderness Survival Merit Badge pamphlet and new Handbook. We shall see. Although my last "issue" -- safe dishwashing -- went uncorrected for twenty-four years, I never thought it was the result of a conspiracy. Much less do I claim any credit for the change. I know for a fact, among other factors miliating change, that others also repeatedly pointed out the problem -- and did so without ascribing dishonorable motives.

A diatribe is "a bitter, abusive criticism or denunciation." I think you fail to see how many can be "turned off" by "diatribes" -- more, I suspect, than are inspired to support or agreement.

"f your account of the Patrol Method section is accurate" - indeed! I will have every edition of the SMST syllabus in due course.

Kudu posted:

"More recently the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster ASM Specific Training:

1) No longer includes ANY mention of a Patrol Leader.

2) Gives an example of the Patrol Method as adults telling random Scouts when it is time to put out the campfire.

3) Strongly emphasises at every mention of the word "Patrol," that the word "Patrol" means exactly the same as "Troop" or any other "group," as in "patrol/troop/group."

ALL [sic] Holders of the Wood Badge are grossly incompetent because they see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Course Directors are the worst in that regard."

Today, I have reviewed Session One of current (2008 printing) Scoutmaster Specific Training syllabus and especially that portion of the syllabus for Session One beginning on p. 53 that covers the "Patrol Method."

Every one of your claims (quoted above) is incorrect as to the syllabus that I reviewed. The patrol leader is discussed by title and duties, the claimed "example" does not appear, and a "patrol" is not explained as being the same as group or troop. Instead, the patrol is distinguished from the troop.

That part of the sullabus for Session One specifically quotes the classic faux quote of BP about the Patrol Method (p. 54) and, on p. 55, specifically instructs the presented to "refer to" Chapter 3 of the SMHB, The Boy-Led Troop, in which it is stated that:

"One patrol leader (italics in original) is elected by the members of each patrol. He takes responsibility for the patrol's activities and represents the patrol in the Patrol Leader's Council."

That Chapter of the SMHB, in turn, refers the reader to Chapter 4 of the SMHB, The Boy-Led Patrol ("ee chapter 4, "The Boy-Led Patrol."

Moreover, the portion of Session One of the SMST syllabus to which you refer follows earlier pages of the syllabus for that VERY SAME SESSION that again refers the instructor to Chapter 4 of the SMHB, The Boy-Led Patrol. The direction on p. 32 of the syllabus is, "[T]urn to the discussion of patrols in The Scoutmaster Handbook, Chapter 4."

Thus, the syllabus incorporates as part of the teaching syllabus BY SPECIFIC REFERENCE the portions of the SMHB that teach that patrol leaders lead their patrols in "patrol meetings and activities" and represent the patrol to the troop.

In short, the Patrol Method is all over the Syllabus for Session One of SMST, and particularly included in the page 53 et seq.

This is hardly a shock given the consistent message in the PLHB, the SMHB, and the National Council website, all to the same effect.

These publications are available at any Scout Shop. The link to the National Council website language on the Patrol Leader is here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/PatrolLeader.aspx

$78.00 plus tax seem like a lot for the hardbound version.

The regular bound copies came in. They are $9.76 here with our 7.75% sales tax.

"Haven't seen it but heard there are minimal reference to merit badges & EDGE heavy."

Page 53 ("Teaching Edge") plus 57 words on p. 59. The Teaching Edge sounds like a new label for fairly classic active learning - making it clear that the Scout learns by application to the end that he can do it himself, independently.

And I just noticed that the water purification section (p. 267) is off base. The new Sawyer filter aside, filtering MAY "make water safe for drinking" IF no dangerous vuruses are present. (And the illustration of a filter isn't a filter.) The illustrated sodium hypochlorite and iodine MAY "make water safe for drinking" IF there are no giardia or cryptosporidium present. It misses using the chemicals to followup on a filter.

So what do all y'all think about the new 12th Edition Boy Scout Handbook?

I like the reorganization of contents by topic.

Good mix of text and illustrations.

Much better index.

I hope the spiral binding holds up.

Over $16.00!! Well, pulp paperbacks are pushing $10.00.

New chapter on "Leadership," which the Table of Contents puts under "Scoutcraft." Obvious origins in Wood Badge 21/NYLT.

WOW! FINALY teaches dishwahing according to generally-accepted health and safety standards. Took what? Twenty-four years.

Assumes all pocket knives are stainless steel, which is mostly correct these days. Mostly. (Wait until they use the dish-wahing suggestion on the old Scout knife dad gave him.)

"Safe Knife Use" refers to folding knives only, although BSA still sells fixed-blade knives and most kids will use them in Scouting and elsewhere.

Fusing leaves out advice to taper soft end with tool to prevent lumps that can jam. In fact, illustrations show lumps as if that was desired end.

Tripod lashing directions partially correct ("spread legs . . into position"). Illustration and first step in text still wrong (You would have to pull legs together to make a tripod as illustrated, requiring very sloppy lashing.). That illustration has been used 75% of the time since 1948.

But why advice on tying a necktie? (Echoes of 1972?)

What do YOU see?

"'Because you said that all Wood Badgers, especially Course Directors for some reason, are grossly incompetent for "see[ing] nothing wrong" with YOUR view of the SMST syllabus, that charge awaits proof that: 1) all Wood Badgers know of the supposed language, in context...

I can see the weasel wheels turning at top speed already: You can prove ANYTHING through 'context.'"

"weasel wheels": Good alliteration, Rick.

Rick, there are many "bad" words in the Bible. I feel its almost insulting to say it to an adult, but context is rather inportant, in the Bible and elsewhere.

If you believe that words taken out of context are meaningful, that is possibly because you are so determined to "prove" your point about more recent training.

The need to take words out of context becomes even more critical when BSA's website, the HBSM, and the BSHB all currently state that patrols have independent identity and activites, something you are trying to prove is contrary to BSA policy and practice.

If they just messed up in writing the SMST syllabus, that would only be another example of human frailty at National Council, not eeeviilll intent. I am well aware of imperfections in BSA publications, but I try not to see error as conspiracy. (I mean, they don't intend that carbon steel knives get rusted when, without qualification, they advise dish-wahing for a pocketknife. They just have limited knowledge and experience.)

And you have ignored the second of the proofs of your statement, and one that is totally unrelated to context: ". . . 2) all Wood Badgers "see nothing wrong" with patrols no longer having independent exitence if, in fact, that is the message of SMST." That is the inherent problem with of statements to the effect that, "All X are Y." Someone may ask you to prove that all persons in the category "X" have characteristic "Y." Absent proof, we have just another example of prejudice -- tarring an entire category of folks, relatively very few of whom of whom you have ever even met.

"Wood Badge sucks because it changes the meaning of the term "Patrol Method" from Patrol-based Scoutcraft adventure to teaching Troop-based business manager theory."

Rick, as to the point that you rasied, Wood Badge models, and thereby teaches, that the patrol is led by the elected patrol leader and has independent existence and independent activities, some in the outdoors, at which troop-level leaders are present by invitation only.

"The uniqueness of Scouting is the patrol method. The use of

the natural gang of six or eight boys who elect their own leader and plan and carry out many of their own activities is a democracy in microcosm. Here young men learn the give and take of working with people as they must surely do all their lives. Here, too, they are given leadership and learning opportunities which prepare them for their future roles as citizens. It is for this reason that it is so crucial that all adults understand thoroughly the patrol method."

Woodbadge.org

Are we as "outdoorsy" as BP hoped? No. Never where. You pine for something that never was -- that which inspires, as opposed to the reality. That's OK. I too wish there were more outdoor opportunities, expecially for patrols working independently.

But my dissatisfactions cannot justify in my mind unrelenting attacks on anyone who feels, on balance, that current Scouting is better supported than damned.

Rick,

The Training Chairman from another district is going to loan me his syllabus. Ours TC is on vacation. I still cannot believe that the language you have quoted does not have a different message in context than that which you attribute to BSA. That is, I honestly can't see National Counsel subverting the concept of Patrols as separate entities with their own activities independent of the troop when National Council puts directly contrary language on the BSA Website, BSHB, and SMHB. or you may be giving sinister intent to mere bungling, of which humans are capable in full measure.

As I have taught the Patrol Method session of SMST, it is Patrol Leader who is to lead and represent his patrol. The SM or SA is to read the PLHB and SMHB where it is clear that the PL is to lead the patrol. The adult only acheives success if the Scout is leading and the adult is in the role of village elder, consulted as needed or when safety becomes the No. 1 concern.

And since White Stag, as a leadership training course for Scouts exphasized Bill Hillcourt's writings from before WWII on the Patrol Method and the Patrol, accurately quoting Phiilips, they had a strange way of getting Hillcourt's thinking out of the way.

I quoted your statements about your view of the objectives of training to a group of Scouters yesterday and asked them if they agreed that is what they were about as a training staff. They did not agree. We either are not, as you claim, reading this official "word" (that contradicts other official statements) or we are reading it very differently than you are.

Because you said that all Wood Badgers, especially Course Directors for some reason, are grossly incompetent for "see[ing] nothing wrong" with YOUR view of the SMST syllabus, that charge awaits proof that: 1) all Wood Badgers know of the supposed language, in context, and 2) all Wood Badgers "see nothing wrong" with patrols no longer having independent exitence if, in fact, that is the message of SMST.

Do patrols spend more time apart from the troop than with the troop, as Hillcourt seemed to desire? No. My patrol didn't in 1954 and does not today. I suppose folks have been accused of heresy in matters of degree before. But I think you are pining for something that never was.

As for adult presence, whatever you may desire the "Age of the Lawsuit" is putting pressure on more than just patrol independence. I suspect that BSA will end the ambiguity about adults on patrol outings (What is an "activity"?) by requiring adults unambiguously at all Scouting events. In my first life in Scouting, we stopped being called on the help with fighting brush fires. In 1987, public officials would not let us supply beverages to rescure workers ni the aftermath of a tornado due to fear they would be sued over injuries (ona paved schiil parking lot!). More adults around would only make it more critical to train the leaders that they are to lead and to keep the adults "on the reservation."

Rick,

So you are the only one who has noticed this language and so you make a point of pointing it out to the trainees - probably phrased something like your posts here?

And if you are the only one who noticed, all the other trainers are like me - continuting to teach that the patrol has a separate identify and activities, led by the PL?

Pardon me, but I see a practical solution to the problem. Stop what you're doing.

As for the quote you brush off, I only cited it as relevant to your claim that BSA is teaching the patrol and troop are the same thing. Clearly, BSA is not teaching that on its website - or in the new Handbook for that matter. BSA is not teaching that. According to you, as the only person who spoted the supposed langauge from the training syllabus, you are the only person teaching that. But I don't truly believe you would do that as you beleive too strongly in Scouting via the patrol.

On the OT point, We have one troop in our district holding elections other than on an annual basis. Ain't my troop. (SM of that troop thinks eneryone who wants to should be allowed in OA. Takes all kinds - if it has to - I guess.)

As for adults at patrol outings in my old troop, I think I told you we had no cool places to go patrol hiking or camping that didn't need a car -- or two -- to get there. Snata Ana was in the midst of the Southern California megalopolis. A hike to Santiago park loses its alure pretty quickly. After driving intil nearly midnight to get to the good stuff in the San Bernadino Mountains, the dad -- or two -- who wanted to stay and watch could hardly be begrudged the opportunity to watch their kid have fun before driving us back on Sunday afternoon, so long as he kept his hands off. ("The dad is essential to the program, but he may also be the natural enemy of boy leaders in the patrol and troop." William Smith, 1957)

I notice that the source of the statement that Bill fought the 1972 changes tooth and nail seems to come exclusively from the White Stag folk, who seem to portray Bill as an obstructionist. Do you have the words from the man himself? Again, by February, 1992, he was urging Scouters to take the Course. And his mental accuity then seemed just fine.

And Rick, my notes were based on the syllabus.

Rick,

If you are, as you claim, the only person to have read the offending langauge, how is that language damaging the training process? Why are you publicising the offending language?

I admit that I have not read the Scoutmaster/SA speficic syllabus in years. I have used my notes. I will get a copy. Pardon me if I suspect there may be a context issue with your claims.

For now, the very Heart of Darkness in your world, National Council, says this about the Patrol Method:

Patrol Leader

"The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method."

Lord Baden-Powell, Scouting's founder

The Patrol

The patrol is a group of Scouts who belong to a troop and who are probably similar in age, development, and interests. The patrol method allows Scouts to interact in a small group outside the larger troop context, working together as a team and sharing the responsibility of making their patrol a success. A patrol takes pride in its identity, and the members strive to make their patrol the best it can be. Patrols will sometimes join with other patrols to learn skills and complete advancement requirements. At other times they will compete against those same patrols in Scout skills and athletic competitions.

The members of each patrol elect one of their own to serve as patrol leader. The troop determines the requirements for patrol leaders, such as rank and age. To give more youths the opportunity to lead, most troops elect patrol leaders twice a year. Some may have elections more often.

Patrol size depends upon a troop's enrollment and the needs of its members, though an ideal patrol size is eight Scouts. Patrols with fewer than eight Scouts should try to recruit new members to get their patrol size up to the ideal number.

. . .

Patrol Meetings

Patrol meetings may be held at any time and place. Many troops set aside a portion of each troop meeting for its patrols to gather. Others encourage patrols to meet on a different evening at the home of a patrol member. The frequency of patrol meetings is determined by upcoming events and activities that require planning and discussion.

Patrol meetings should be well-planned and businesslike. Typically, the patrol leader calls the meeting to order, the scribe collects dues, and the assistant patrol leader reports on advancement. The patrol leader should report any information from the latest patrol leaders' council meeting. The bulk of the meeting should be devoted to planning upcoming activities, with specific assignments made to each patrol member.

Patrol Activities

Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also conduct day hikes and service projects independent of the troop, as long as they follow two rules:

The Scoutmaster approves the activity.

The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.

Patrol Spirit

Patrol spirit is the glue that holds the patrol together and keeps it going. Building patrol spirit takes time, because it is shaped by a patrol's experiencesgood and bad. Often misadventures such as enduring a thunderstorm or getting lost in the woods will contribute much in pulling a patrol together. Many other elements also will help build patrol spirit. Creating a patrol identity and traditions will help build each patrol member's sense of belonging.

Every patrol needs a good name. Usually, the patrol chooses its name from nature, a plant or animal, or something that makes the patrol unique. A patrol might choose an object for its outstanding quality. For example, sharks are strong swimmers and buffaloes love to roam. The patrol may want to add an adjective to spice up the patrol name, such as the Soaring Hawks or the Rambunctious Raccoons.

A patrol flag is the patrol's trademark, and it should be a good one. Have a competition to see who comes up with the best design and who is the best artist. Make the flag out of a heavy canvas and use permanent markers to decorate it. In addition to the patrol name, the patrol flag should have the troop number on it as well as the names of all the patrol members. Mount the flag on a pole, which also can be decorated. Remember, the patrol flag should go wherever the patrol goes.

Every patrol has a patrol yell, which should be short and snappy. Choose words that fit the patrol's goals. Use the yell to announce to other patrols that your patrol is ready to eat or has won a patrol competition. Some patrols also have a patrol song.

Other patrol traditions include printing the patrol logo on the chuck box and other patrol property. Many troops designate patrol corners somewhere in the troop meeting room; patrols may decorate their corner in their own special way. Some patrols like to specialize in doing something extremely well, such as cooking peach cobbler or hobo stew.

The Patrol Leaders' Council

As a patrol leader, you are a member of the patrol leaders' council, and you serve as the voice of your patrol members. You should present the ideas and concerns of your patrol and in turn share the decisions of the patrol leaders' council with your patrol members.

The patrol leaders' council is made up of the senior patrol leader, who presides over the meetings; the assistant senior patrol leader, all patrol leaders, and the troop guide. The patrol leaders' council plans the yearly troop program at the annual troop program planning conference. It then meets monthly to fine-tune the plans for the upcoming month.

Your Duties as Patrol Leader

When you accepted the position of patrol leader, you agreed to provide service and leadership to your patrol and troop. No doubt you will take this responsibility seriously, but you will also find it fun and rewarding. As a patrol leader, you are expected to do the following:

Plan and lead patrol meetings and activities.

Keep patrol members informed.

Assign each patrol member a specific duty.

Represent your patrol at all patrol leaders' council meetings and the annual program planning conference.

Prepare the patrol to participate in all troop activities.

Work with other troop leaders to make the troop run well.

Know the abilities of each patrol member.

Set a good example.

Wear the Scout uniform correctly.

Live by the Scout Oath and Law.

Show and develop patrol."

spirit.http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/PatrolLeader.aspx

It is simply not reasonable to me to read this language and not see that the Patrol Method as currently described by B.S.A. requires patrols with an identity separate from the troop.

That is what is taught in my council in Scoutmaster Specific Training and modeled in IOLS and Wood Badge.

The Patrol Method as currently taught also includes leadership by the Scouts, as described above. If adults do not put the method into action, that is not for lack of training otherwise. Adultss who WILL lead have been a problem before you were born - heck, forever (in Scouting years).

Wood Badge in its first two versions assumed that the participants understood the Patrol Method. That may have been reasonable when it was a course for relative vets. Now, Wood Badge training expressly teaches that the ultimate goal of adults in the unit is to watch the scouts lead: "Explain -Demonstrate - Guide - ENABLE" You have to be real thick to think that Wood Badge portrays your role as an adult to be the planner/leader of the unit's program, much less the patrol's activities. Current Wood Badge is fully consistent with what I have been taught about the Patrol Method over the decades.

"If I remember correctly the Troop that Tahawk belonged to as a Scout did not use Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course. Likewise when he became an adult leader he did not follow the BSA program either. So of course he would not address the specific issue of White Stag's destruction of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training, even though he is old enough to have experienced it directly."

Hmmm.

Rick, with two exceptions, the then-current official B.S.A. training syllabii were used when I was trained or training from 1956-1962 and from 1982 to date. The Training Chairman when I was a Scout used Scouts as presenters in the adult courses to model the notion that Scouts were competent and capable of leading, and I have done the same. Patrols in that troop were required to have patrol campoutS AND hikeS over and above troop outings. I was the 48th PL of the Eagle Patrol of Troop 43 (founded 1908 on the basis of Scouting for Boys), and I proudly placed my initials on the flag staff with the others. (Real easy in those days to identify the Patrol leader from a distance. He was the one with the patrol flag.)

Exception 1: I took something called "White Stag" as a weekend "experimental" training course for [jr.] leaders in 1960 in LA. What we were told was was fully consistent with what I had been taught about the Patrol Method, formally and by observation and experience, in the prior six years. It was sponsored by LA Council, but not sure if it was fully "official."

Exception 2: As I noted, I have used the old district-level [jr.] leader syllabus recently since there is no other syllabus available and many Scoutmasters, being new, want help training their leaders.

So far as I know, I have followed the BSA program to the best of my ability whenever I have been in charge (with the exception noted) and counseled the same when I was not in charge, while attempting to secure changes when I thought it appropriate. (Anyone know who's responsible for the Wilderness Survival MB pamphlet?)

I note that official literature is not always consistent regarding details of the program, such as how to wash dishes or how to tie a tripod lashing.

Rick (as in Kudu), you are doubtless a fine fellow in many ways. But crying "ad hominem" is not worthy of you. I merely said:

"Then we have Kudu, who is not Bill. Kudu supports an alternative youth program and appears here to bash Scouting on the basis of imagined facts - and to denounce all of those who wear the Wood Badge."

You are not Bill.

You support an alternative youth program, "Traditional Scouting" that YOU make a point of distinguishing form Scouting in the U.S. for generations. Fairly few Traditional Scouting units, though.

You appear here primarily to do what is fair to call "bash" Scouting as it is and has been for generations, not only in the U.S. but all over the world, I see.

You and I have dueled, fairly politely I thought, over what I see as your clear errors regarding what BP said about the aims and methods of Scouting.

And you bash everyone wearing the Wood Badge. In this thread, consider the overweaning breadth of your attack. All those thousands of Scouter and no redeaming feature that most of us here ascribe to your passionate self.

Beyond our disagreement about what Scouting is all about according to BP, what have I misstated, Rick?

I don't expect to get a vote on what's in the MBP, but when I point out that the advice on water purification is contrary to the advice of the Centers for Disease Control, American Red Cross, USEPA, Wilderness Medical Society, and U.S. military, I expect something other than six years of silence and a new edition with the same errors. And that's only one example. Seems simply unwise.

Today, I was supplied with an actual name and email address at National Council. I have sent off an eletter this evening. Time will tell.

"Best path to a response is a friendly cup of coffee with your Council Commissioner and your Council Advancement Chair. They have the heft to move the draft to Region and to National.

Depending on the size of your Council, your SE may also have some heft."

I have a good relationship with our SE, who is a "pople person." I should try with him if my new name at NC does not work out.

I struck out with Council in 2001. I was told to write to the "comments" address inside the MBP and Scouting Magazine. Letters to the former got no response, and Scouting Magazine, that has helped wonderfully on other issues, came up empty.

I need to adjust the draft due to numerous changes made in the last two days due to good help from reviewers. I will then send it out to those who have requested it since my prior post.

The draft MBP has been revised (I hope improved) with the input of several here and suggestions from other MB Counselors.

Anyone else wishing to give it a look and express your opinions send me your email address. It's now in pdf so much smaller attachment. (Thank you Frank 17.)

My letter to National Council suggesting some improvements went out almost two months ago. No response.

In my Counsel, District-level junior leader training was, of course, presented from my getting back into Scouting in 1982 until 2001. I was a Course Director. We used a a national syllabus. In 2001 (the thereabouts), the official "JLOW" syllabus was withdrawn until a new syllabus was to be issued. A new syllabus has been promised several times, but has not been forthcoming.

Some of us are not waiting. We continue to offer JLOW using the old syllabus to supplement training of junior leaders at the unit level. Typically, after several generally-applicable sessions, we break out into separate sessions for Patrol leadership, Troop leadership, and warrant positions (e.g. QM). The Patrol method and the proper role of adults vis-a-vis junior leaders is very much part of that training. In fact, we refer to adults as "Scouters." Only Scouts are called "leaders." Words have power.

Look at the old gent at the top of the page with his chin in his hand. Bill was proud to wear the Wood Badge and came to our Wood Badge Breakfast in 1992 to urge all present to extend Wood badge training to as many Scouters as possible because, he said, it "is" a "great and valuable experience." He dropped $10 in the hat for our Wood Badge Scholarship Fund and autographed books and T-shirts so we could sell them to raise more funds to send Scouters to Wood Badge in 1993 - twenty-one years after Kudi said it became worthless.

Then we have Kudu, who is not Bill. Kudu supports an alternative youth program and appears here to bash Scouting on the basis of imagined facts - and to denounce all of those who wear the Wood Badge.

I don't know if training today is better than when I was first trained and training in 1960. It is valuable, depending on the quality of the staff more than any other factor. Our IOLS weekend in May (All Scoutcraft All the Time) had an allstar staff, and the participants didn't want to leave on Sunday when it was officially over. We are probably going to have, with our local Council's approval already in hand, an "Advanced Outdoor Leader Skills" course. Such a course is offered in many Councils in Ohio.

The glass is at least half full.

The NH statute gives the department that receives the "reimbursement" the sole discretion to determine liability (negligence) and the amount to be "reimbursed." There is no provision for appeal. The person ordered to pay the reimbursement has a limited time to pay his/her debt to the State. Absent payment, the debtor loses his/her driver's license and any license required to engage in employment and is subject to court action to collect the debt.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give both of them a try.

Five takers thus far.