TAHAWK

Perhaps if a "quality summer camp program" was not defined as fifty badges (including Citizenship badges, for Bill's sake) AND a Scout earning five, six, seven, or eight [!] badges in five days, it would be possible to deliver said "quality" at today's prices. I never earned more than two at a Summer camp, and thought that was pretty fast. Let's see. Two per week x 52 weeks.

(And Kudu, I do think the Bill's are drafting badly. Oh. That would be off topic, yes?)

A good many factors go into the decline in Scouting membership since I was a Scout and two of every three boys spent some time as a Scout. Adults are far less inclined to join any organization, from Scouting to bowling teams, to fraternal organizations. This strangles program. Scouting is no longer like Mom, apple pie and the Flag. We are "controversial." We don't have a unit in every school -- or very many schools at all.

Still, when the proportion that made Eagle was 1% instead of 4%, Scouting was a program with mass appeal. Now it is not.

My district twenty years ago - perhaps 25% of the council, had 37 Troops. The entire council has less than twice that now -- on paper. (Some registered Troops have not met in years.) Ignore phony programs like "in-school scouting" and phantom units/Scouts ("Dig deep for Scouting."), and the numbers in my council have fallen every year since 1982.

In the face of such dire results, looking at alternative approaches might be in order.

If Scouting is truly about values and about helping to build good people, then the general acceptance of systematic fraud is a symptom of the demise of Scouting.

If Scouting is not about values, then who cares? We could simply auction off (or "Buy it now.") Eagle badges the way we auction off some adult awards.

On my honor I will do my best, unless it's difficult or inconvenient.

Brother, if you believe trying to turn a profit is neither fair nor competitive, you may need to reassess where you are on the political spectrum. In any event, I am not judging. Merely stating facts as I know them. My council wants the $$ for the camp to come from the fees paid to camp AND to have some of that $$ left for the General Fund. Private camps will want the same.

In any case, I do not think this is a political discussion or will be helped by trying to put everything into particular political sorting baskets. For example, the most rabid guns-rights guy I know is a member of the Socialist Party from WBGV. Hard to fit everything under the sun into neat political categories. (He likes big knives too. Runs his own business on the side. Likes Charlie Daniels. Hates Sting and "The Boss." Get the picture? Not neat. )

There is a political forum.

Eamonn, thank you for the contribution.

I never asserted that the price charged at any council camp, any sample of council camps, or council camps in general is fair or competitive. Maybe someone else did.

I never asserted that councils are "skimming." I merely reported the facts as I know them to be in my council. To try to be clearer. our council camp camp is expected to turn a profit over an above all costs of operation. That would be, I suspect, an example of the free market business model: AKA "turning a profit."

You attributed certain views to "you liberals." Not sure who you attach that label to, but I requested that we not bring politics into this.

As for me, I don't think your proposed solution is "liberal" or "conservative,," but it is interesting.

I thought paying little but expecting more is Dollar Stores.

"Simple economics" is a fine joke to lighten up a discussion that have become tense at times. ^___^

Please do not bring politics into what is already a difficult issue.

I do appreciate the editing out of the personal attacks.

I hoped this could stay civil. Obviously, that was a faint hope.

As noted on p. 5 of this thread: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

"So does that mean that you arent going to accept anymore signed blue cards from any Scout camp by anyone involved with teaching or testing that is under 18 and not an expert in the area. Because to do otherwise is granting your approval of cheating. Correct?"

First, I said nothing about "teaching," which is expressly open to Scouts. Testing - passing - is to be the exclusive realm of adults.

Next, many camps have the "blue card" signed by an adult who neither taught nor tested. There is no provision for a unit Scouter to reject a "blue card" signed by an adult merit badge counselor.

Third, there is no requirement of competence - expertise - as such.

Otherwise, correct.

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Shortridge, as to the issue that you raise, which has been discussed in this thread, it seems more important not to cheat than to pretend to teach and pretend to recognize pretend achievement. There is no real good side to the choice you present. No one is winning. Moreover, Scouts had fun at camp when they earned two merit badges -- or one and the Peter McLaren Award. Why four or five unearned MB's are required escapes me, but I suspect its what the adults have come to expect.

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"And there is a fairly good chance that if enough SMs push the point, national will simply change the rule to exempt summer camp from MBC requirements. As is, out camp plays the game that the over-18 area director is the MBC of record, despite the Scout eaning a MB may never have any contact at all with the AD.

So here's an idea: if your camp play fast and loose with the rules, you should too. Namely the rule that says a signed blue card is a done deal and a SM cannot question it. If the card is signed by a 15-y.o. counselor, you've got a pretty good argument that the card isn't valid anyway."

Twocub, that is not what I was told today. I was told BSA is very concerned and trying to figure out how to enforce the rules. Reality, as I have noted, may be another thing. But the lost hunter will never better his situation unless the problem is admitted.

I am less concerned with the age of the real teacher and tester than their level of competence and opportunity to actually teach. Here, the two Scouts had no chance. They were set up to fail. The council then cheated by handing out the unearned badges. Once the Scout has his signed "blue card," it is much harder, as a practical matter, to fix the problem, and an appeal will likely result in the MB being awarded. If our SM would do try after-the-fact corrective action, I would support him. What we are doing is having the Scouts involved take instruction in the subject of the MB's in question, as any unit could do.

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"Again, only speaking for my own experiences at my past Councils camp, Ive only seen the staff directors sign off on cards who have to be over 18, most are over 21 in fact. Not saying it never has happened, but it is something they were aware of and had a policy in place for over the past 10 years or so.

The teaching staffer (typically are 16 to 18, yes) does keep a checklist of requirements completed which hangs in the Scoutmasters lounge."

Yes. Play-acting.

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"What is the name of the camp so others can steer clear."

As this is an almost universal practice and as this COuncil has yet to respond to my letter, it suffices to say "Any Camp U.S.A." If it has not 'come to your Council," you still need to watch for it. Easier to stop when just getting started.

"If it was a MB mill as usual, why does your troop still go to that camp?"

I joined this Troop after the decision had been made by the PLC. I could not have offered them an alternative except a troop camp, which I will encourage. Why did the PLC pick this camp? I was told, based on experience in 2009: very friendly staff; decent food; tremendous variety of MB's; good showers; especially nice waterfront. All these perceptions were accurate. And the camp filled for seven weeks, so others share the favorable view.

"If the council used 14 and 15 year olds as merit badge counselors, the council broke national policy which states that a all merit badge counselors must be 18 years old or older."

Yes

"Have you taken your concerns to the council advancement committee? the council camping committee? the council commissioner? Which council volunteer leaders have you gone to? What were there responses?"

Again, this is not my council, but since my council does the same (Six CIT's as MBC's before the camp season closed this year), I have talked to the Council Advancement Chair and have a meeting with the SE next Tuesday. As noted above, thanks to Shortridge, I have also talked to the National Council - today.

As noted, I did write to the paid person assigned to outdoor program in the council in question. The names of the top volunteers do not appear on the council's website and Google didn't help.

And no "if" about it, sir.

"Sounds like your Scouts got a sub-standard program for the fees they paid to get the promised program."

Yes. Food for 20. 100 invited.

"Of course, there is no practical way to take this up with BSA since they do not share their mailing address, telephone number, or mail address with mere volunteers."

Shortridge:

"TAHAWK, that's just false, and I suspect you know that.

National's mailing address is printed on the back of the Boy Scout Handbook, even inside the front cover of the Wilderness Survival MBP you dislike so strongly.

You can get the phone number by calling information or doing a simple Google search. I imagine it's not printed on the books to deter parents and Scouts calling with simple questions that should be directed to Scoutmasters or councils. (National isn't an information clearinghouse.)

For general reference, it's 1325 West Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, TX 75038, phone 972-580-2000.

National can be legitimately criticized on a number of fronts, but not about hiding their address."

Truthfully, Shortridge, I had no such idea. My image of how things work, communications-wise, was based on my experience -- my idea of reality, whether subjectively accurate or not. People do tend to operate on what they think is real, you know.

Nor was my statement precise.

My Council has told me several times that they have problems communicating past Area, and most of these instances were matters of interpretation of language. I sat and watched one nice Council employee try for about forty-five minutes to get someone -anyone - to talk to him about the first aid requirement that appears in so many outdoor badges. He failed. Our Council VP for Training then tried and failed. They had telephone numbers.

Our training person for YPT also had questions when the AV training came out, and was unable to find anyone to communicate with. He kept being referred to the training he had received. (Several of us looked at that and agreed that it did not cover his issues.)

I got telephone numbers indirectly three times, and each call elicited "How did you get this number" and a very short conversation indeed. One lady hung up after I said where I got the number. Two times I was abruptly told to contact my local council, despite saying in my opening sentence that my LC had referred me to National Council.

Yes, I was wrong about the snail mail address (1325 Walnut Hill Lane). I did write to that address. My letters might as well have been wrapped around a rock and dumped in Lake Erie for all the response they got: none.

Mr. Perez gave me an email address as did "Scouting." All I got was a form "Don't call us. We'll call you" response.

The very helpful staff at "Scouting" told me I could always "Write to the PO Box and be ignored." I did. I was.

But my call to the telephone number that you provided was a revelation. I was transferred to an actual human being. He was aware of the problem and suggested ways to try to get it fixed. He gave me his email address. and invited further communication. So thank you for your gift.

The council decides what resources to allocate to camp staff. It's the council buying food for 20 and inviting 100. The problem starts there and the responsibility is there. All councils are supposed to follow the mandatory requirements set out in BSA advancement policies, which include, without exception, individual testing by adults merit badge counselors. No council is entitled to change that. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Of course, there is no practical way to take this up with BSA since they do not share their mailing address, telephone number, or mail address with mere volunteers.

"I dont understand what you mean by expediency is a value. Theres only so many hours, so many dollars, so many resources to do so much and to some its still not enough. I cant go along with that perspective. Boys are constantly growing through the process every year, every week, as ugly as it may be.

If you want perfection, youre not going to find it. Dont like it, dont participate. Roll your own camp, many units do that every year. Or keep looking for that perfect camp that is going to meet every expectation you want met. Good luck."

I do not accept that the choice is between cheating and perfection. I believe that is a false dichotomy.

The decision to offer MB's that are not, or cannot be, adequately staffed is a decision - not an act of God.

This is like buying food for 20, inviting 100, and saying to those served tiny percentages of the portion -- or none at all, "What do you expect. I can only afford full portions for 20."

So you agree that expediency is one of the values.

Let's put it on the sign over the entrance to camp: "Scouting - the good outweighs the bad." There's a battle cry.

I have hoped for more.

And it's not the staff creating mills. It's councils.

So in a values-oriented program, what are the values being demonstrated at these MB mills? Expediency would seem to be one.

Hope we can keep this civil.

I will communicate with the Council that operates the camp in question, but my experience is that they are not doing anything unusual. I was told today that my Council's camp was doing the same thing. In fact, so many MBC's quit that all CIT's were "promoted" to MBC's - some as young as 14.

AND

">> They started at a zero knowledge base ...

Why? Did none of the Scouts read the MBP? Read the relevant sections in the Handbook and Fieldbook? Did their SPL or SM encourage them to do so before signing up for the program to make sure they'd enjoy it?"

Shortridge, I think the answer is the objective is to get MB's - not education. The SM's are getting what they, as customers, want - lots of pretties to hand out at next COH. One troop at camp boasts of over 25% Eagles. Many of their Scouts were given five MB's at camp. Some were surely earned.

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BEAR GRYLLS often acts like an idiot on his fraud of a TV show. Whether he appreciates it or not, he is a good teacher of "what not to do."

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Twocubdad:

" Using that logic, T-hawk, we're going to have to change the requirements to Nuclear Science MB least some kid be put in charge of a nuclear power plant and cause a melt down.

99% of us will never be in a survival situation. Of the remaining 1%, their best course of action will be to hug a tree and blow their rescue whistle. I believe my boys learned that lesson very well from an episode of Barney before they started cubs. If practical WS training is the goal, let's just show the Barney episode."

Respectfully, I have no ideas what you are trying to communicate in your first sentence.

As for the rest, the need to make choices cannot be legislated out of existence by BSA. If you are on the first day of a two-week backpacker when an adult snaps an ankle, "hugging a tree" is nonsense. No one will miss you for weeks. No one may come along to relieve you of responsibility. Odds are, you will have to move some, and you may have to self-rescue. Sadly, teaching about navigation and self-rescue has disappeared from BSA Wilderness Survival, although pages of criteria for a survival campsite implies a need for safe movement.

If 99% or some lesser % of those who go into the wild are never in a survival situation, they would still profit from a good educational experience about handling an emergency. Life is not without crisis for the vast majority.

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"While WS theory has obviously changed, I again submit it should not be called "Wilderness" or "Survival." Not sure what to call it ("Make Yourself Comfy and Wait for the SAR Team, They'll Be Here in a Jiffy MB" is kinda clunky) but we are giving the scouts a false sense of competence when we sign them off for the MB as it is currently formatted."

It's about how to reduce the odds of dying in wilderness. It will work for the vast majority, and nothing will work 100%. Thinking straight, 98.6, signaling, first aid, avoiding nature's pitfalls, water purification - these are all good for any wilderness survival approach - if actually taught.

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"GATLINBURG, Tenn. (AP) Visitors to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park during its 75th anniversary year were up 5% over 2008 and were the most in nearly a decade.

Park Superintendent Dale Ditmanson said 9,491,436 people came into the 500,000-acre park in calendar year 2009 through its three main entrances and outlying areas."

So 95% of that figure would be a shade over 9,000,000.

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Causes of serious injury in GSMNP/yr. per NPS:

Motor vehicle accidents 50

Walking or hiking accidents 38

Bicycle accidents 16

Falls from waterfalls 9

Horseback riding accidents 7

Tubing accidents 5

Sting reactions 4

No reason why Camping is a Summer Camp badge since no special facilities are needed to meet the requirements and the "do" requirements come out of patrol camping. At best, the candidate is finishing up, relying on notes from the SM for most of the "do."

On the other paw, some of the other MB's done at Summer Camp (e.g. Computers; Citizenship; Personal management)seem even more out-of-place than "001."

The key (and I was told this explicitly by one SM) is that all badges in Summer Camp are "easier than at home." But at least the average SC counselor is less competent. 0___0 ("A 'Bear Bag" is a sack so tightly made that the bears cannot smell the food you put in them.")

packsaddle, the goal of a good many Councils is to turn a profit on Summer Camp. I don't know of any that have a goal of subsidizing Summer Camp, except in the case of camperships.

The last annual budget I saw for our Council (2008) allocated 93% of all funds to salaries. That left 7% for all other items, including maintenance and operation of the Council's camps and offices.

As I noted, "wilderness survival" today is generally survive until rescued. What was BSA Wilderness Survival for the first decade or so is "Bushcraft."

Really, how many Scouts, in a survival situation, are going to make clothes from hides, tools from stone, fire-by-friction, boil water in bark, and trap enough food to survive? Animals optimized as hunters still starve. Flint is found in a single location in all of Ohio. Few edible plants supply calories. Ohio's No. 1 expert on mushrooms almost killed himself by making a mistake in ID'ing a fungus. Trappers set dozens and dozens of traps and still sometimes come up empty.

"Modern survival" is more realistic, and teaches a mental approach that can be applied to any crisis. (No. Not STOP = fire, ready aim) That, of course, assumes learning is actually going on vs the MB mill approach.

At one camp, to top off the "lecture" passing of requirements, the overnighter was cancelled due to rain (NOT a storm), but all candidates were given credit for "passing" that requirement as well. By "all" I mean everyone on the list, including the Scout who had stopped attending the lectures on Wednesday to switch to another MB (for which he had a partial). (The same camp gave Pioneering to a Scout who literally could not tie a single knot or lashing required for that MB and had no idea that a "project" was required.)

A PM points out that a number of camps deny they are MB mills - in identical language.

It was once about primitive living and well-written by THE man, Professor Olsen of BYU.

It changed to "modern survival" - staying alive until rescued. That topic is what most, but not all, "wilderness survival" is about these days. The primitive living topic is often labeled "bushcraft."

The current pamphlet is now written by a secret committee and is a mess - disorganized, internally inconsistent, inconsistent with other BSA literature, and full of silly and dangerous errors and omissions.

But BSA does not want to communicate about it under any circumstances. The Vatican is more open to discussion of the liturgy.

Depending on when you took WSMB, you may not recognize the requirements of today's badge:

1. Show that you know first aid for and how to prevent injuries or illnesses likely to occur in backcountry settings, including hypothermia, heat reactions, frostbite, dehydration, blisters, insect stings, tick bites, and snakebites.

2. From memory, list the seven priorities for survival in a backcountry or wilderness location. Explain the importance of each one with your counselor.

3. Describe ways to avoid panic and maintain a high level of morale when lost, and explain why this is important.

4. Describe the steps you would take to survive in the following conditions:

Cold and snowy

Wet (forest)

Hot and dry (desert)

Windy (mountains or plains)

Water (ocean, lake, or river)

5. Put together a personal survival kit and be able to explain how each item in it could be useful.

6. Using three different methods (other than matches), build and light three fires.

7. Do the following:

Show five different ways to attract attention when lost.

Demonstrate how to use a signal mirror.

Describe from memory five ground-to-air signals and tell what they mean.

8. Improvise a natural shelter. For the purpose of this demonstration, use techniques that have little negative impact on the environment. Spend a night in your shelter.

9. Explain how to protect yourself from insects, reptiles, and bears.

10. Demonstrate three ways to treat water found in the outdoors to prepare it for drinking.

11. Show that you know the proper clothing to wear in your area on an overnight in extremely hot weather and in extremely cold weather.

12. Explain why it usually is not wise to eat edible wild plants or wildlife in a wilderness survival situation.

I forgot to mention that the two MBC's for Wilderness Survival, who were MBC's for other MB's in Scoutcraft, were 15 and 17.

TT, they did the fires. That is a "do" requirement. So it could be called the "Light Three Fires and Show Up at Lectures Every Day Merit Badge."

The shelters were made by teams of candidates, not individuals, and were uniformly inadequate for any purpose (You could see through them from side to side.). Nor were they taught to properly make an expedient shelter. However, that requirement is so vague as to be nonexistent -- no standard for acceptable. Given LNT and the practicalities, the requirement might better read:

"x) Using a tarp, poncho or other similar gear that you could reasonably expect to have on a weekend backpacker, make a shelter (or shelters) that could protect you from: a) rain and wind; b) sun and wind; and c) cold and wind.

y) If the materials are available and consistent with leaving little negative impact on the environment, build an expedient shelter of brush, grass, or other plant material suitable to protect you from cold and rain.

z) Spend a night in the shelter built to meet requirement x or y or a snow shelter."

CP, I have discussed this same situation with Camp Program Directors and Area Directors at eleven camps in Ohio, Wisconsin, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania.

I have discussed it with five Advancement Chairs in three Councils over the last few years.

I am told, over and over, that the camps lack the staff to individually examine as required by BSA. The logic seems to be, "If we can't do it according to the rules, cheat." (A Scout is expedient.)

The cheating is an "open secret." That is, everyone knows it is the rule, rather than the exception, but it is bad form to talk about it. I was not given Smiley Faces when I brought it up.

I suggested to the last Area Director that the camp require that each candidate have the MB pamphlet for each MB they appear for so there was a chance that they might learn -- even after they were given the MB. She was not pleased, and said "It is not up to me."

Handing out tons of MB's, earned or otherwise, is also regarded as a tool to get Troops into camp.

As for next year, I have not seen a single camp that is not a MB mill.

The troop I was with for 23 years did it's own camp every other year and encouraged Scouts to take the MB's most given away at a BSA camp at the troop's camp. My current troop always goes to a Council camp.

So what's next? More of the same. It's gone on for years.

Beyond the fires, I have no idea what the candidates learned, as they were never asked to explain or demonstrate. A few candidates made comments in class that make me hopeful that they know soemthing about the subject.

They started at a zero knowledge base, had no written information, and were not encouraged to work on the MB other than in the 250 minutes of class and "outpost." (The vast bulk of the "outpost" time was taken up in going and coming, a wide game, and attempting to sleep.)

Hopefully, as they never saw it, they didn't learn the many errors in the disgraceful MBP.

Thirty candidates for Wilderness Survival MB - many first-year campers.

Not a one with the MB pamphlet.

Candidates in three sessions sit and listen.

Some answer questions - or sit and say not a single word in five days.

Not one takes notes.

Thirty given the MB - without a single individual examination on any requirement.

Not one passed the MB.

Trustworthy?