TAHAWK

We had a Scout bring pot to Summer Camp and offer it to a couple of other Scouts. When they both reported it to the SM, the wrong-doer's Mom was told to come get him and bring him back in the Fall clean or not at all. It was reported to the CC when we got back. A little checking around confirmed this was not his first use of pot. There had been "problems" at school.

Hey, Beav. I am not aware of our carpet bombing any city since WWII. Dresden was nothing to be proud about, but have you some recent incident in mind?

So Uncle Joe was our "friend" so long as we were shipping him Studebaker trucks?

OBL was always our enemy. His words and his behavior tell us so.

And, alas, we didn't give OBL a trial! How ever will we know he was actually guilty? Oh, that's right. He bragged about repeatedly leading mass murder - of 1000's US citizens of all religions and other 1000's of Muslims -- just because it suited his "holy war." (Notice how readily they plant bombs in public places and deliberately splatter kid parts - infant parts -- all over the area?)

Its a rough neighborhood, folks, and we do well to have rough people protecting our rights to critique. Read JFK's inaugural address again. Or has he, like Jefferson, been removed from the list of acceptable thinkers?

I've mentioned this before. The first Wilderness Survival Merit Badge pamphlet was written by Larry Dean Olsen, an instructor of wilderness survival ay BYU. At the time he was Da' Man. Now it's the Mystery Committee, no Table of contents and no real bibliography. And he was a Scouter, by the way.

While coverage in 60-70 pp can't be exhaustive, it ought to be correct as far as it goes.

Beard, Daniel, Shelters, Shacks, and Shanties http://www.manybooks.net/titles/beardd2825528255-8.html

Ven,

Wilderness Survival does have some hands-on stuff - the fires and shelter/stay in shelter stuff. The PSK requirement (if they would just correctly explain what a SPK is) could lead into actually using the parts - but no such requirement. Not enough hands-on.

Pictures? The Wilderness Survival PBP is full of pictures of improperly-dressed Scouts (in the style of pp. 10-11 of the BSHB). The picture that accompanies the (incorrect) instructions on use of natural flint and steel in the MBP is a picture of a ferrocerium rod and scraper (AKA "Hot Spark"), a totally different tool that would likely be destroyed by the instructions to "strike" the "flint" with the steel. So they don't do near 100% with pictures either.

(Oh, the picture of the shield of an early BSA knife in the BSHB at p. 402 is a picture of a knock-off knife that BSA successfully sued to stop. Funny peculiar. More serious, look at the illustration of scraping an insect stinger out with the "side of the blade" of your Scout knife on p. 43. Looks a lot like trying to scrape it out with the edge of the blade, doesn't it? I have asked numerous Scouts "What's wrong with this picture?" and they all say it looks dangerous, or words to that effect ["Crazy"].)

As Da Beav knows, the requirements are the requirements. As a MBC you are on your honor to add nothing to and subtract nothing from the requirements. If they are indefinite, you do the best you can.

The rest of the MBP is supposed to be educational to help the candidate meet the requirements. The quality is uneven, including uneven (and contradictory) within the same MBP.

You are not bound to accept the educational material as accurate, which is fortunate on the occasions when the MBP is dead wrong.

Some MBP's have bibliographies of additional materials, some of which are actually available and useful. Other cited sources are out of date or superseded for decades.

No, you can't communicate with the secret author(s) with questions or comments. You can, however, write snail mail letters to a PO Box and be ignored.

Scouting [magazine] staff will help all they can to clarify ambiguities, and Scouting frequently publishes articles that correct errors in MBP's (and BSA inserts to Scouting).(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

(And yes, I think it's pretty bad that a BSA MBP contradicts every U.S. authority I can find, public and private, on chemical treatment of wild water, including most other BSA publications (excepting only the sadly mistaken BSHB). And that's only one of a garbage can full of gross errors in a publication whose topic is survival - life or death. You might want to take extra care to get THAT right.)(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

bnelon44

"Patrols are part of a troop. The troop has adult leaders, but their job is to give guidance and advice to the Boy Scouts. The Scouts run their own program."

"[Patrol Leader, [w]hen you see that a patrol member is overstepping the boundaries of the code of conduct spelled out in the Scout Oath and Law, it is your responsibility to step aside with that Scout and discuss with him why his behavior is not acceptable."

"Discipline issues" in the commonly accepted meaning of those words, issues include issues of staying in order, keeping order, and insuring compliance with proper procedures, such as wearing PDF's when boating or insuring proper hydration when exercising.

"Meetings where the boy leaders are in charge can be very chaotic. And it can be very tempting for adults to jump in and sort things out, because that is what adults do. But we have to remember that that is the process of Scouting. That is how they learneven from disorganization and failure."

If a Scout leader sees Scouts "goofing off" when they are supposed to be learning knots and reminds them to get back to knots, that leader is dealing with a discipline issue.

If a Scout leader sees that a Scout within his responsibility is not acting according to the Scout law and he discusses or with the defaulter how his behavior departs from the Law, that leader is dealing with a discipline issue.

If a Scout leader sees a Scout about to enter a canoe without a PFD and reminds that Scout about BSA's rules, that leader is dealing with a discipline issue.

Is a Scout leader sees two Scouts getting into a confrontation and uses "Resolving Conflicts" from 2011 NYLT to restore order, he is dealing with a discipline issue.

Under your reading of BSA policy, the Scout leader is reduced, at best, to a snitch. That is not "youth leadership," the "Patrol Method," or anything else I recognize as a very active 35-year unit Scouter or as a pretty active trainer of youth and adults in Scouting for 39 years.

This is not a "little thing" at all. It goes to the whole idea of youths as leaders, as opposed to gofers or spies for the adults. Things will NOT always go smoothly, discipline-wise, and they need to learn how to deal with it by good council, good training, and experience. Running off to adults every time there is a discipline issue is not leadership.

Now if BSA has some special meaning for 'discipline" that does not reduce the Scout leader to a cypher, they might share that with us, even those of us not initiated into the inner, inner circle.

BP, I think you will find it was not a whim of the public that led to the effort to urbanize Scouting. It was "experts" who never actually polled the "sales force" or the "customers." Edsel. New Coke.

benlon44, BSA is VERY careful to point out that it "owns" the brand and makes the rules.

I am not a representative of BSA in a legal OR practical sense.

IF you believe that a PL cannot, under current policy, assign KP as punishment, I believe you have a very unique perspective, and I use "unique" deliberately and in its literal meaning., not in any sarcastic sense.

Shortidge, I think the DK books are questionable even though, on the whole, they are vastly superior to the MBP on the subject. However, if one takes into account the current, wretched Wilderness Survival Merit Badge pamphlet, I have no confidence in the general proposition that the corporation has the capacity to write expertly on outdoor skills in general. Nor do I think that was ever the case. The volunteers, as a body, have considerable expertise, but are often ignored.

Oh, female Scouters are very much in evidence as participants and staff at Wood Badge here. But the vast majority of the female participants are in Cub program. Did have one SA and one Venturing Adviser in 2010. (No course this year.)

Very reflective posts.

As someone who had to tell kids three times that they could not have a troop due to lack of adults to sign the paperwork, I welcomed female Scouters. In theory, it double the poor of potential Scouters. But, years later, few troops here have female Scoutmasters - under 5%, and few female Scouters are visible at district and council outdoor events. So we did not get the doubling of Scouters that we needed - and still need.

Mega-trends.

Bowling leagues - down

Garden clubs - down

Fraternal organizations - down

bnelon44,

I think you will note that I did not, in simple fact, say that BSA advised khukuris at Summer camp. As you know, contrary to BSA's acknowledgement of educational responsibility to teach safe use of all legally possessed knives (2011 G2SS "Knives"), many Councils purport to totally ban any fixed-blade knife at Summer Camp.

The survival books I mentioned are The Complete Wilderness Training Manual, 2d. ed. rev. (DK Publishing, 2007) and "The Survival Handbook," DK Publishers, 2009. Both are trade paperbacks and bear the Symbol and name of the BSA on the cover. They are for sale in our local BSA Scout Shop - as of last Tuesday. They were written by former UK commando types and are pretty good. Neither seems to be specifically aimed at youth. I suspect that no one outside the Supply Organization has ever turned a single page of either book.

As for the Youth Protection AV's pronouncement that only adults handle "discipline issues," I have no idea what was in the mind(s) of whoever came up with that language. Nor can I ask because as BSA has walled itself off from the general body of volunteers expected to carry out BSA policy. Even Scouting [Magazine] neither knows nor can get an answer for me.

This leaves us with the usual tools we use in every day life when confronted by unclear messages: the generally accepted meanings of words, context, and "common sense."

"Discipline" is often used for punishment, but discipline is also self-control, orderliness, or submission to authority.

The Patrol Leader Handbook states that "When you see that a patrol member is overstepping the boundaries of the code of conduct spelled out in the Scout Oath and Law, it is your responsibility to step aside with that Scout and discuss with him why his behavior is not acceptable." That is a description of handling a discipline issue.

Spelling out to the offender consequences for the unacceptable behavior would be discussing discipline INCLUDING "punishment" ("The SPL says your tent is an embarrassment. You and Jon are on KP until your tent passes inspection.").

As we have doubtless all observed, "discipline" is often enforced by some or all of the group without reference to any official title or role ("Stop screwing up the tent inspections for us!). There may also be unofficial group punishment to enforce discipline ("Why won't anyone talk to me? I didn't mean to screw up the tent inspections.).

If the BSA clarifies that the AV is now the rule --- if discipline is now solely the province of adults, they will have done a very unwise thing by producing a rule that simply will not work and cannot be enforced in the real world. Unenforceable rules produce disrespect for all rules. And what would be left of the Patrol method or youth leadership? So I sincerely hope that we will get more specific, more useful language in the AV.

And as you seem to be a spokesman for the corporation ("We are changing our polices on discipline in the troop and moving it from the Scouts to the adults. The youth protection folks are working through all the manuals now."), I hope BSA will, through you, apply the knowledge and experience that you seem to possess to making decisions on such matters.

I didn't do this right the first time. Sorry.

"The Patrol Leaders' Council

As a patrol leader, you are a member of the patrol leaders' council, and you serve as the voice of your patrol members. You should present the ideas and concerns of your patrol and in turn share the decisions of the patrol leaders' council with your patrol members.

The patrol leaders' council is made up of the senior patrol leader, who presides over the meetings; the assistant senior patrol leader, all patrol leaders, and the troop guide. The patrol leaders' council plans the yearly troop program at the annual troop program planning conference. It then meets monthly to fine-tune the plans for the upcoming month."

SOURCE: The Boy Scouts of America at Scouting.org July 9, 2011 [Please note "and the Troop Guide."]

Noting inconsistencies and wishing to understand the actual BSA position is not "fighting" anything. It's trying to understand and/or to point out questionable situations.

Want an example?

Here is one discussed here before. Scout literature such as the SMHB and PLHB say the PL's responsibilities include things that almost anyone (Never say "all.") would agree is part-and-parcel of a dictionary definition of "discipline." Current Youth Protection Training expressly says all -- all -- discipline is to be handled by adults.

(I asked about this conflict at Council in April. They looked at the training AV again (with "new eyes"), expressed "surprise," and would not offer an opinion as to what course to follow. A discussion of the range of behaviors that fit the term "discipline" resolved nothing except that "serious" discipline was surely for adults to administer. I will be advised about "serious" in due course. Breath, holding of, not.)

More?

Wilderness Survival Merit Badge pamphlet says Scouts should wear T-shirts and shorts and provides numerous pictures of Scouts at Philmont in T-shirts, shorts and no head-ware. Same book says wear trousers, LS shirts, and brimmed hat if it's sunny.

More?

Same pamphlet says in a survival situation you are to stay put (Hence, zero discussion of navigation or self-rescue.). Same pamphlet gives pages of criteria for a proper 'survival campsite," almost surely useless if you are to stay put.

More?

G2SS says to avoid "large sheath knives." Offical BSA survival books sold in BSA stores advocate khukuris and bolos, perhaps due to a sword or scabbard-tool exception to the "large sheath knife" admonition.

Please note these are all "health and safety" matters, presumably worthy of attention.

Beav's point being accurate, one ignores the silly and goes with the rational. PL's lead their patrols. Cover up in the sun. Move if it makes sense. No short-swords.

But things are not always that clear. Until recently, advice on whether the "two-deep" rule applied to "Patrol activities" was all over the block. Different DE's and middle-level paid Scouters were giving sharply different advice in our Council.

So now we know - sorta.

I was also advised to gift the participants. Noting that participants now spend long hours on fiberglass chairs and picnic tables, I found $1.59 closed-cell foam seat cushions at our local clearance store. They were appreciated. Other particpants noted and brought their own for WE II.

I have also been exposed in various workplaces to customs of gift-giving. They were prevented from becoming containers of Lumbricus terrestris by dollar limits.

I recall "Goodby to the English measurement system." Most people alive today were not alive when the absolute triumph of the Metric System was announced.

I am not bothered by the inconsistencies in superseded literature in the slightest.

It is interesting that some of the "newer" ideas ("Never do for the Scout what he can do for himself.") were present far earlier than generally acknowledged and that the pattern of inconsistent statements by BSA continues continues. The last is troublesome to the extent that we are to follow the "official" line.

Large, bureaucratic organizations routinely make mistakes about what their "customers" want.

>The legendary "Improved Scouting Program" and, more recently, all the uniform changes.

>Toyota's new, larger (12" longer), heavier, lower-mileage 2006 RAV-4 just in time for the first round of $3.99 gasoline.

>Ford's Edsel

>"New Coke"

>Add your own

The bigger the organization, the harder it apparently becomes to stay in touch with reality. A certain arrogance sets in. The organization develops a direct pipeline to God, so no input from "the field" is required or desired. They have a monopoly on "received wisdom"

BSA sets a new standard for out-of-touch with with no public mailing address, email address, or telephone number.

I apologize to my betters if these observations are self-evident.

It sometimes seems to me that Scout literature is like the Bible: language can be found that differs on many points. Therefore, it can be cited on more than one side of a position about "authentic" Scouting.

So the first Scout Master's Handbook (1913) describes boys as little beasts, warns against giving them too much power, and looks on pure boy-democracy with great alarm.

However, in a BSA behavior that persists to this day, the 1913 SMHB was written by a committee. In fact, it is a collection of separate articles by identified authors. So, on other pages in the 1913 SMHB we find other ideas.

1. The ultimate aim of every Scout, we are told, should be leadership. Presumably, since Scouts are handy to a "Scout", leadership of Scouts is at least contemplated.

2. The very writer who decries "too much" boy leadership in the 1913 version of the ["Six] Principles of Boy Work," also admonishes the adult to lead indirectly from off the stage: "Thirdly, the best way to have boys accomplish things is to allow them to do the things. . . . Thus the Scout Master will will not do anything that the boy can do himself, and he will be continually placing responsibility on the lad. Responsibility is the great maker of men." Gee, that sounds familiar, does it not?

3. To the question, should Patrol Leaders be appointed OR elected, the 1913 SMHB answers with a resounding, "yes!" George Merritt, at p. 254, writes "In the unorganized gang there is always a natural leader in command, and this boy will assert his ability and power for leadership in whatever group of boys he may be. For this reason it is better for the boys to elect their own leaders as this natural leader-type is most likely to be selected by them. Otherwise, if another sort of boy is appointed or selected as leader, the chances are that the natural leader of the group will either oust the other fellow or break up the patrol."

Merrit goes on to describe appointment of PL's by the Scoutmaster as "dictatorial appointment."

Merritt also states that the PL "presides" at patrol meetings and , "usually," the senior of the PL's "presides" at troop meetings.

4. Later in the 1913 SMHB, Ormond Loomis, a serving SE, describes appointing patrol leaders and assistants in a new troop or if conditions otherwise compel it, until the "election of patrol officers."

He also notes that the Patrol Leader "should be the actual leader of the patrol" who "should be given full charge of developing and carrying out the activities assigned to Scouts under him. It is his duty to arose the spirit of unity and strength without which a patrol cannot succeed and without which patrol life is impossible." The PL is to take responsibility for his patrol independent of adults: "The Patrol Leader should make it his duty to get a physician to teach First Aid rather than to depend upon the Scout Master." "Patrol Leaders should regularly be given full charge of meetings of patrols," AND the best performing PL "should be in charge" when the troop is called together

Loomis does advocate that an adult should attend every "hike."

He finds it "preferable" that the Patrol leader select his assistants himself."

When differing, even conflicting, positions exist side-by-side in official literature, should they not be cited as authority with care and with context?

Moreover, one might allow for honest changes in thinking over time and as experince is accumulated.

The 1913 SMHB is available on line. Google "Handbook for Scoutmaster's" + "1913."

As suggested, the problem is often the "listed" business.

I found out that my official record says I took basic training in 1910, took all Commissioner's training, and was the District Chairman of another district - for many years. Except for the 1910 part (Just kidding!), that is all incorrect.

The official record also omits everything between 1910 and 1998 and most of the stuff after 1998.

Not truly impressive in an organization that is now making a great business about requiring training.

I am moving to a new unit closer to my home and in another council. I have been told I do not ("hardly") need to take basic training. I will be in the same position, SA.

I would hate to retake the current Scoutmaster Specific unit. It's bad enough to repeatedly teach it. 0___0

The Patrol Leaders' Council

As a patrol leader, you are a member of the patrol leaders' council, and you serve as the voice of your patrol members. You should present the ideas and concerns of your patrol and in turn share the decisions of the patrol leaders' council with your patrol members.

The patrol leaders' council is made up of the senior patrol leader, who presides over the meetings; the assistant senior patrol leader, all patrol leaders, and the troop guide. The patrol leaders' council plans the yearly troop program at the annual troop program planning conference. It then meets monthly to fine-tune the plans for the upcoming month.

Scouting.org

Bill Hillcourt called the PLC (then called "Troop Leaders' Council") assembled for training together the "Green Bar Patrol."

Handbook for Scoutmasters, 1936, at p. 192.

Taking these together, I conclude that the Troop Guide is a member of the Green bar Patrol as he is a member of the PLC.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

Respectfully, not every disagreement is "bickering."

Also, reaching a consensus, even where appropriate, requires "give" on all sides.

There are at least as many assumptions as facts supporting judgments being made here.

BP,

Thanks for the good wishes.

I guess it is true that "American scouting never got it totally right from the beginning." No one ever gets it "totally right." BP saw PL's as Squad Leaders appointed by, and under the orders of "officers" and West put us in high-collar military suits. Bill wrote that one ought not drink water on hikes. (As "no water when exercising" was the theory of "trained" "professional" athletic coaches when I was was playing HS football years later, I can hardly be hard on Bill for that.) BP was a product of his age, and so thought the British "race" superior to other "races." I wonder what he would have written in the post-Imperial age had his working life extended so far. Perhaps he would have edited SFB to be what Bill wrote in 1946. Just imperfect clay.

I was happy with the probably imperfect Scouting of my first life in Scouting from 1954 to 1966, and it shapped my view of what "Scouting" should be. Things were very different from what I found when I got "back in" in 1981. My troop was immediately the only troop tenting out at our Klondike Derby (SPL: "Why not?" Klondike Derby Registrar: "What?!"). Boy did that give the troop bragging rights. Soon others were "shamed" into doing it. My troop was soon the only troop with patrol campouts, when that had been the rule before.

So many changes. So many things that seem wrong in Scouting, the sum total of the franchisees and their "customers." So many things wrong with BSA, the franchisor. (Best to remember that McDonalds, the corporation, is not "McDonalds" to the customers.)

But in trying to improve things, in listing all that is "wrong" in this 104th year of Scouting, one can get bogged down in negatives. So if I agree with several here that the level of outdoor skills expected, taught, and displayed has declined, I also propose we who care should do something positive about it. These are our "businesses" - our franchises. Who has a greater stake in success? Some bureaucrat at the home office, or parents and Scouters in the field working with youth (and those Venturing folk too)?

So save what can be saved. If you won't, who will?

Or not, as it suits you.

So the COR appoints the Committee and the CC.

If the CC has a veto on all Committee actions, don't you have a one-person Committee when it comes to decisions? (Animal Farm: "some are more equal than others.")

In a point that Blanchard made but revised 21st Century WB "lost in translation," authoritarian leadership does not work well in volunteer organizations because people can "vote with their feet." Then you have a one-person Committee to do the work of the Committee. Hello! Hello! Anyone else here?

In southern California and similar climates, nylon tents will not last 125 days due to UV "rot." (We're not in Seattle anymore, Toto.") It's often a matter of judgment whether to repair or replace. Here in Ohio, we bought from a store that repaired zippers and rips for free so long as the tent was sound. They are not in business anymore.

I have personal experience that too much money can be a bigger problem than just enough to get by - more to argue about.

I recall advice to have a "small reserve only" for the troop, but i cannot recall the source(s). Pre-2000 training?