Sturgen

I would suggest daily uniform inspection by the SPL or acting SPL for summer camp. Uniforms are just that uniform, and ought to be kept clean and ordered. As a camp staff member for 5 years i was able to keep my uniform clean for the entire summer, and have never seen a reason why the scouts can't do the same.

(just a side note: this whole running around with shirts untucked has resulted in more than one "show some respect to the uniform, tuck it in or take it off son" speeches from the fish)

I don't have any of my paper work handy, but if memory serves, the sash is only to be worn either at an OA event or when representing the OA or the Lodge at another scouting event. Because of this, a member who fails to be in good standing (i.e. not registered or dues are not payed) is unable to wear his sash.

You are correct in regards to Lodge flaps, and although I'm not sure on the ribbon, I believe it is acceptable for a member not in good standing to wear the ribbon.

In the end, there is one realy easy way to solve the problem, register and pay up dues to your new councils lodge, don't worry, they probably won't charge back dues. ;-) All you need is proof of your membership, often times a sash is enough, although they may ask for the year of your Ordeal and the Council/Lodge it was in.

BOY Scouts

The only part of the BSA that has strict ceremony rules is the OA, and for any ceremonies that the OA does that don't occure at an OA event are reallllllllly adaptable as well. Since you are doing a cub scout cross over ceremony, do whatever you want, try contacting your local lodge and they may be able to do a simple crossover ceremony without AOL, I have done a few of those in my time, and it just makes it a shorter ceremony for the team to do.

I earned my Eagle not much more than 2 months before my 18th birthday, and I'm glad that it was then and not earlier. Personally I wish BSA would require one to be atleast 16 years of age to start ones Eagle Project, but thats just me. For those that believe "Eagle in three" is good, please look into the Venture program and Ranger as an option for your boys afterwards. My old SM always said that when dealing with boys, nearly everything you say goes in one ear and out the other until around the age of fifteen or sixteen. In all my years of scouting and my time working in the public school system, I have found this to be true.

I say burn it, burn it all then pack out the metal. To be honest, I would even say bury the metal in small amounts. I'm sorry, but this whole carrying your garbage another 40 miles out is foolish. For those of you worried about the air polution, natural releases of "green house gas" out number man made by somewhere in the range of 1000 to 1, the sandwich bag isn't going to cause global warming, heck, we don't even know if global warming is something we can control.

The story has hit national news media, figgured since it involves scouting it was about time it be posted here.

Spokane Scout Scandal

I was going to let this sit and wait until someone else brought it up, but If no one else wants to, or knows about it, its time the story is told.

Spokane Mayor Jim West has recently been outed as a bi/homo-sexual, nothing unusual in light of the last few years. But heres the kicker, this is accompanied with atleast four seprate aqusations of child molestation as early as the 1970's and as recent as late as the early 80's. But why bring it up here you might ask? Mr. West at the time this all occured was a Troop Leader and Sheriffs deputy. West ran my camp (the same camp that atleast one charge of molestation occured at) for five years, almost six, but had to resign due to colon cancer.... To my knowledge he was still registered in the council last year. untill this story broke was also on the board for "morning star boys ranch" a facility that young men with criminal behaviors are placed in to sober up, get thier lives straight, etc.

For the full story go here: http://www.spokesmanreview.com/jimwest/

For INWC formal statement: http://www.inwc-bsa.org/forms/BSAStatementonMayorWest.pdf

(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

In regards to the "at camp" portion, I just brought that up to show my link of playing to Scouting. In my case it was a matter of eight or ten senior staff members getting together durring BOB time or evening free time. I tend to agree with DugNevius in regards to when they can play, many troops pull out the Risk boards, decks of cards at night when a hard days work is done, its a good way to relax after a long days work. In no way am I implying they should play durring merit badge time, but theres always an hour here and there that the scouts have free in the evening or early morning, might as well play a game that requires use of logic, memory and mathematics.

Cowles Scout Reservation, Diamond Lake, Eastern Washington, almost Idaho. Five years as a youth, 5 years as staff, both Boy Scout and Cubbies. Can you C.O.P.E. with it??? Japeechen can.

http://www.scoutcampsusa.com/cowles/cowles.html

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I'm going to have to go with Torveaux on this one, admiting that the troop I earned my Eagle in, and currently act as an ASM in isn't exactly by the book (a completely different thread long ago).

My view is that both the SM conference and BOR are not a "you go and you pass" kind of thing. Obviously some parents are not going to be happy with this, but rank isn't everything, in reality it isn't much, it is the skills and experience that count.

In Hula's case, their is obviously some confusion, this along with a lack of information, most of which would apear to be second or third hand, makes me suspect that the leaders cannot be condemned right out.

Don't forget to add the Bible, the Louve, Vatican City, nearly all plays, books, painting from the romantica era.....

I'll stop now, I think my point is clear enough.

Seattle Pioneer,

While no one directly stated that obese Scout Leaders ought to be removed from Scouts, you do ask for suitable ways of dealing with obese leaders. From this it may be inferred that you feel that they must be dealt with in some way, shape or form. An abbreviated list would include reprimand, letting it go, and removing them from program. Personally I believe that telling a volunteer that they are to fat and setting a poor example for youth is not only in poor taste, but just down right idiocy, and is only going to result in these leaders walking away from the program, and taking their sons with them.

Having lived on both sides of the great state of Washington, and having been active in councils in both Spokane and Seattle I am well aware that many individuals are far thinner on the west side of the state, you guys dont have to bulk up for winter. While I can not speak to the fitness of every adult leader out there, I can state that based on my observations of leaders over 15+ years of scouting a sizable majority (please forgive the pun) of leaders in the Inland Northwest would be considered over weight or obese.

The conflict lies in the definition of obese. Many people falsely directly link weight and fitness, presuming that because someone is skinny, that they are fit. (Hunt, my comment early is based off of an ABC newscast about a month ago.) The current western view of a healthy weight is incredibly skewed from reality. As far as I am concerned, if an adult can keep up with the boys, or at least stay close enough as to not slow the boys down, who the heck cares about their weight, or how they look. My troop never does any car camping, so for the most part those dads who go camping are, by my definition, of a reasonable level of fitness, although some would consider them unfit due to their weight/measurements.

Furthermore you seem to be completely dismissing the usefulness of a leader if they are obese. While scouting does offer an excellent outdoor program, there are several other important facets that a leader can contribute to regardless of their weight or fitness level.

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P.S. While I am well aware of the correct spelling of the fish that is my namesake, the name is Sturgen, preferably written in all caps, with the R, G, and N written backwards/mirrored.

Try contacting a local hardware store, some may be willing to donate a few simple hand tools to the pack as a whole. Another option would be some of the larger companies like Lowes and Home Depot have workshops once or twice a week, if your meetings don't fall on these days you may be able to borrow their workshop tools for an evening or two.

Just a general question:

Do D&D and Scouts contradict each other or complement each other? I know some individuals/churches believe that D&D (Dungeons and Dragons) is a satanic, ritualistic game of cults and idol worshipers. Personally I think they fit together well, I started to play at Scout Camp and nearly everyone I play with is in Scouting. If you play a good game, honor, loyalty and wit are the skills that will take you far in the game, and when compared to video games or TV, it is far more intellectual.

Just a few points:

If obese scout leaders were banned the Order of the Arrow would be nonexistent (my lodge might have two or three advisors/active adults left), the council office would be nearly bare, and half of the Scout Masters out there would be gone.

The scout oath says physically strong, in my experience, if you take the average heavy set to mildly obese individual, and you put them up against an average fit person, the heavier of the two will win in nearly every feet of brute physical strength (ie lifting, pulling,etc)

Personally I would consider myself in the pleasantly plump to tubby range. Ill tell you right now, the only way your going to see me doing any serious running, beyond a short sprint, is if there is an angry cub mom after me. However I have worked on a COPE course for 2 summers, and at an outpost for 3 years before that, both very physically demanding job. I work freight in a grocery store carrying and throwing heavy boxes. And the few times I get a chance to go hiking between work and school I am known by my troop as a mule, someone who moves slow and steady, with a double or triple load on their back. As far as Im concerned, I would be considered physically strong. However by the comments made by some individuals here, as well as in other forums, I would be seen unfit to be a Leader due to my weight.

In other news: It has been recently shown that being fifteen to twenty pounds over your ideal weight can add up to five years to life expectancy!!!

Coming from a true and proud redneck (my truck only has 5 pro US magnetic ribbons and three flags on it right now and the gun rack, and the scraps of leather in the bed, well you get the idea) , there is nothing racists, sexist, evil or abhorrent about Get er done. For centuries her has been used to refer to cars, boats, planes, etc. In this case, er refers to a task to be completed. So by saying get er done one is simply saying get up off your posterior and finish the job. A good motto for scouts and young men in general; and one that if more people were to prescribe to a lot more would be all gone and dun finished. Let boys be boys I say. Other wise the will turn into, in the words of the governator, girly men

By the way, the fish is back, >

Not to discourage you but to make a safe, working bow is a formidable task. Many adults have trouble building one. As an archery director for cub resident camp 4 years running and 13 years experience as an archer, I would never shoot, or allow cubs to shoot a homemade/handmade bow made by youth or anyone with out years of experience in bow design and construction. Additionally the tools and materials (especially the wood) are especially expensive for any scout event, knowing the average budget for camps.

Dug, youre my kind of man. My troops the same way; focusing on leadership and high adventure, real camping before we hit the books. Boys run it all boards all the way through and its been that way for 35 years, ever since our current Scoutmaster took the position. The council office doesnt exactly approve, but what the heck, it works, and we produce quality young men.

Gotta love how the liberal media throws former Cub Scout/Boy Scout Leader whenever they can on a murder/drug/assault case..

Accused BTK Killer 'Guy Next Door'

WICHITA, Kansas, Feb. 26, 2005

(CBS/AP) Dennis Rader lived in a suburb of Wichita with a wife and two children, led a Cub Scout troop and was active in his Lutheran church.

But police say he is also the serial killer who called himself BTK - for "Bind, Torture, Kill" - and is responsible for the deaths of ten people, mostly young women, since 1974, reports CBS News Correspondent Cynthia Bowers.

As an ordinance enforcement officer for the local government, Rader could be seen measuring grass in a front yard with a tape measure to see if it was too long, a neighbor said.

He was also in charge of animal control since about 1990, the Wichita Eagle reports, and served in Vietnam.

Although no charges have been filed, a jubilant collection of law enforcers and community leaders told a cheering crowd they were confident the long-running case could now be closed, ending a 31-year manhunt.

Authorities generally declined to answer questions in detail after announcing the arrest, but Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius told The Associated Press that DNA evidence was the key to cracking the case.

Wichita television station KAKE, citing unnamed sources, reported that DNA from Rader's daughter, Kerri, was instrumental in his capture. On Sunday, KAKE anchor Larry Hatteberg told CNN that the source said Rader was already under surveillance when his daughter's DNA was obtained.

BTK stoked fears throughout the 1970s in Wichita, a manufacturing center with 350,000 residents, with his grisly crimes and taunting letters sent to police and media.

He even phoned in one of his killings, saying: "Yes, you will find a homicide at 943 South Pershing Street, Nancy Fox."

The killer stopped writing in the late 1970s but resurfaced about a year ago with a letter giving details of a 1986 slaying that had not previously linked to BTK.

In Park City, the suspect's neighbors said he helped elderly neighbors with yard work but described him as an unpleasant man who often went looking for reasons to cite his neighbors for violations of city codes.

Bill Lindsay, 38, lived behind Rader and said his wife caught Rader in their adjoining backyards filming the back of their house.

"He really acted really funny," said Lindsay, a truck driver. "I'd be on the road and my wife would tell me, 'Dennis has been out again, taking his pictures.'"

Jason Day, 28, said his brother was in Rader's Cub Scout pack at the nearby Park City Baptist Church, but their mother pulled him out because of Rader.

"It was his demeanor," he said. "He was so strange."

Messages left for Rader's family members were not returned on Saturday, and no one answered the door at the home of his in-laws.

Rader was being held at an undisclosed location, and it was not immediately clear if he had a lawyer. In Kansas, suspects generally appear before a judge for a status hearing within 48 hours of their arrest.

Prosecutor Nola Foulston said the death penalty would not apply to any crime committed between 1972 and 1994, when Kansas did not have the death penalty.

The BTK slayings began in 1974 with the strangulations of Joseph Otero, 38, his wife, Julie, 34, and their two children. The six victims that followed were all women, and most were strangled.

Along with his grisly crimes, the killer terrorized Wichita by sending rambling letters to the media, including one in which he named himself BTK for "Bind them, Torture them, Kill them." In another he complained, "How many do I have to kill before I get my name in the paper or some national attention?"

In several of the letters, BTK included clues to his identity. Police had long believed BTK was a graduate of Wichita State University, as Rader was. Letters sent in the past year included jewelry that police believed may have been taken from BTK's victims and the driver's license of one of the victims.

"He obviously was getting rid of his trophies; he was leaving us a wide-open trail," said Richard LaMunyon, Wichita's police chief from 1963 to 1989. "I think the ultimate goal was of him being caught."

At one point, investigators made a list of white men who graduated from Wichita State in the 1970s. Officials said Rader's name likely was on that list, but he wasn't identified back then as a suspect.

BTK stopped communicating in 1979 and remained silent for more than two decades before re-establishing contact last March with a letter to The Wichita Eagle about an unsolved 1986 killing.

The letter included a copy of the victim's driver's license and photos of her slain body. The return address on the letter said it was from Bill Thomas Killman initials BTK.

Thousands of tips poured in, and the Kansas Bureau of Investigation gathered thousands of DNA swabs in connection with the investigation. In the end, DNA evidence was the key to cracking the case, said Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius.

"The way they made the link was some DNA evidence, that they had some DNA connection to the guy who they arrested," Sebelius said in an interview with The Associated Press. She did not elaborate.

The two newly identified cases were similar to the early ones with one exception, Sedgwick County Sheriff Gary Steed said: The bodies had been removed from the crime scenes. One of the victims lived on the same street as Rader.

"We as investigators keep an open mind. But only now are we able to bring them together as BTK cases," he said.

On Friday, investigators searched Rader's house and seized computer equipment.

Authorities, who generally declined to answer questions in detail after announcing the arrest, had little to say about why BTK resurfaced after years without contact.

"It is possible something in his life has changed. I think he felt the need to get his story out," LaMunyon said.

MMV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

I can't be the only person here in a western region lodge can I? Well either way i thought i would at least put post one for the region.

Es-Kaielgu

Finally a refreshing voice that demands excellence instead of mediocrity, thank you marcpaige. Of course testing during trips, weekly meeting etc. is always good but often it takes some one on one time to find out what each individual knows, one change I would suggest would be instead of you testing the scout directly, have one of your JASMs or other older experienced scouts test right before or during the SMC, one of the best methods of learning is teaching after all.

In regards to wingnut, if you are using the SMC to build a bond with your scout you are wasting your time. It is the responsibility of the SM to build a bond from day one, through participating with the boys during meetings and trips, if you only set aside ten minutes every couple of months to bond that serves no purpose, you might as well let the kid go home.

For some clarity the archery range was in reference to cubbies being little monsters. Also, making a dozen or so phone calls is not leadership.

Popcorn sales for cubbies I can understand, its simply, and lets face it, some people consider the monsters cute.(forgive the sarcasm, but try running a cub scout archery range and see what you think then) But Boy Scouts and the Venture Program need to come up with something a little more creative, that requires some leadership from the boys, in my opinion getting a card table and sitting outside walmart is not leadership, there are hundreds of options out there, you just have to be creative.

A couple of things I hav noted as a member of the OA:

It is my understanding that in the past an individual could fail an ordeal, essentially be refused membership into the OA, this no longer occurs, or at least I have never seen or hear of it occureing in recent years. As to being an active member, most lodges have multiple committees that always need youth members, the youth simply have to take the initiative to talk to advisors and members of the LEC