SR540Beaver

Dan, Can you honestly say that you can not see a difference in smoking and sexual orientation? Apples and oranges. Actually, iron and carrots. They can not even be comapred as two different kinds of fruit. I've stated before that my sister is a lesbian and one of my best friends from college is a gay pastor and I love both of them dearly. Even so, I had an authority figure in my life who I respected deeply that attempted to molest me as an older teen. I don't consider him a pedophile as he didn't go after children. As I discovered, he WAS a closeted and married gay and he had hit on other young men in our group. No one chose to talk about it. Does that mean that all gay men hit on teens? Of course not. Does having gay scout leaders give greater potential for temptation and the possibility of something happening? Absolutely. I knew enough to grab his hand, move it and firmly tell him NO. Twice in fact. Not every kid will. I will never knowingly place a child or teen in the situation I found myself in.

We have one or two boys who do not know how to swim or have a fear of water that we are working with. We have others who just don't care about aquatics. I don't take the swim test myself and I always get weird looks from anyone when I say I'm not taking it. For me, there are several reasons. One, at 49 years old, I don't look as good in a swimsuit as I once did at 19. I still have my pride. Two, I have shoulder joint problems and actually swimming instead of soaking (my favorite swim activity) tends to lead to sleepless nights. Three, I wear a $6,000 insulin pump that isn't waterproof. Other than that, I have always loved the water and dearly miss it. If I HAD to swim to save my life, not a problem. Check with your summer camp and see if they allow swim tests before arriving at camp. I've had experience with three different summer camps and it was never an issue. We have 63 boys in our troop and 51 attended camp a couple of weeks ago. Doing the test before camp takes a huge workload off of the camp staff and speeds up the check in process. The added bonus is it is done in a swimming pool for all the guys who worry about creepy crawlies.

Eagle69, Thanks for the link, it helped a lot. I usually find summer camps listed under camping on most council websites. There usually is a leaders guide there. Quapaw has the leaders guide listed under "forms" instead of the page about summer camp. I guess I just didn't look hard enough, but the placement doesn't seem logical to me. Adding the same link to the camping or summer camp page is easy. I'll give them a look. I realize Kia Kima isn't an Arkansas council camp as it belongs to a Tennessee council if I recall. WE split up our research within geographical boundaries, so that is why I have in included in Arkansas. Again, thanks!

While not endorsing it in general, I have an uncle who was 17 when he married my aunt who was 15 and the daughter of the county sheriff. They have been happily married for at least 40+ years now. He ended up becoming a pastor, she worked on a US sSnator's staff for years and they raised 3 great kids. We are infantizing our kids more and more these days and consider mid to late teenagers to be children when they should be taught to be young adults. I had odd jobs starting at about 14. Today, that is against the law in Oklahoma as you can not hire anyone under 16. I also had a motorcycle liscense at 14 and a drivers liscense at 16 with full rights and priviliges. The Oklahoma laws have recently been changed to give limited liscenses to 16 year olds. They can only have one passenger in their vehicle under the age of 18. They also are under a curfew for night driving. I understand why the laws were passed. They figure that by limiting driving priviliges, they can reduce accidents and deaths of teen drivers. The bad side of this is it is one more nail in the coffin of teaching kids how to become responsible adults. We want to consider our kids as children who need to be babied and cared for until 18 or in somes cases all the way thru college. Then we expect them to jump into society as full fledged mature adults when they have never had to develop life skills or exercise any responsibility. Can 15 year olds marry and be successful like my aunt and uncle did 40 years ago? Probably not, because we have stacked society against them and forced them to remain children into their 20's.

The troop I serve is in Oklahoma. We have attended the same summer camp for the last three years and while it is an excellent camp, we feel it is time to seek out new scenery and adventures. We have divided up our state and surrounding states for research purposes and I'm looking into Arkansas. I have knowledge of Camp Pioneer and it was a hit with an old troop of mine. I have come across three other camps in Arkansas which I know nothing about. One camp is Blass Scout Reservation and their website has little to no information. It appears to be a small camp with little to offer. The other two I found are Camp Orr and Kia Kima Scout Reservation which somehow appears to be two summer camp facilities in one. Both have great leader's guides in a downloadable PDF format. On paper, they look like great camps with much to offer. Has anyone been to Camp Orr or Kia Kima in Arkansas and what were your impressions of those camps. Thanks!

Yikes! I dated a 15 year old when I was 18 for over 3 years with her parent's permission. She was legal when we broke up. Of course, that was back in the mid to late 70's. Funny, I'm 4 years older than my wife and it isn't a big deal when we are 45 and 49. Good advice all around. You need to do your research. If the father is present, it needs to be addressed. Two deep leadership should always be a constant in any unit so even if an unknown pedophile is around, there will be no opportunity. Trev, I'd discuss it with your CC about what to do if this fellow wants to go camping with your unit again. While I would be uneasy having him around, again, two deep leadership is our protection for both the scouts and adults.

Gern said, "Paleos want cheap expendable labor." I have to disagree with you there. I look forward to reading Pat Buchanan's column twice a week. He has stressed borders, language and culture so long and so adamantly that he is often called a Nazi by both the left and right. Buchanan could easily be considered the poster boy of paleocons. He takes American companies and the federal government to task on a regular basis for the loss of manufacturing jobs that undercuts the middle class. He wants American jobs for english speaking Americans and is in full support of building a fence on the southern border. I still say it is the neocons which actually had their start from the liberal side of the spectrum. Just like the left, the neocons see millions of Mexicans with Catholic and family values as a huge future voting block to tap and stay in power. Paleocons come much much closer to America First'ers.

Yellow, I'll agree about the chickenhawk neocons love for using the military to mold the world in our image. Which supports what I said. The "image" they want to mold the world in is a government and society where morality is legislated based on religion. Oddly enough, that is the enemy we are currently fighting. Go figure.

I have to agree from my very limited perspective. I see boys who enjoy the outdoor aspect of scouting, but get tired of "scouting". Sometimes they just want to camp and do whatever the program is. They get tired of the uniform, working requirements for advancement, duty rosters, teaching other kids, patrols, etc. Venturing was marketed as a sort on non-scouting scouting. Adventure without all the bells and whistles. Of course, it is often the bells and whistles of "organization" that makes scouting function successfully. I think Venturing "can" devolve into a bunch of kids setting across the table from each other a couple times a month asking each other what they want to do and not much happening.

Yellow, The only big deal is that O'Reilly is extremely arrogant and considers himself right on everything. After all, he is "looking out for you". Olberman likes to poke the proverbial sharp stick in his eye every once in a while to expose what a boob he can be. Of course, Bill always has to shoot back because his ego won't let him overlook it. It is great theater. Not too long ago, a caller to O'reilly's radio show mentioned Olberman's name and Bill threatened the guy telling him they had his number, they could track him down and FOX security would be paying him a visit. He was as serious as he could be. FOX News will send a security guard to the guys house to tell him not to harrass O'Reilly?!!! Give me a break. It is because of the way O'Reilly acts that Olberman taunts him. That and they are on competting channels at the same time slot.

I hate to admit it, but I was duped for some time. I eventually realized that all of the political pundits, TV talking heads and radio talk show hosts are entertainers. I now see talk radio and TV for what it is, just another version of "professional" wrestling. To a degree, some of these guys DO believe what they spout. To a larger degree, their vitriol and delivery is straight out of the circus to attract you, pull you in and make a buck. Ann Coulter is probably the "best" at it with how ugly she can get and still draw an audience. Being conservative, it is beyond me how so many "conservatives" can listen to these guys and are willing to claim them as spokesmen for their views.

Semper, Boy, I didn't read the same things into oldsm's post that you did. This is a 15 year old scout who has been to Council JLT and Troop JLT twice. If he joined the troop at 10.5 or 11, he has been a Scout for 4+ years. He is Life. He has watched other SPL's do the job. What is there for him NOT to know? I realize knowing the job and doing the job are two different things. Our job is to teach them the job and coach them thru it. It sounds to me like oldsm is attempting to do that, but has an unwilling student. Keep in mind that the boy ran for the position, so it is not unfair to expect him to fulfill the job's responsibilities. His poor performance has a direct effect on every boy in the troop. There are many other POR's this boy could have done for rank advancement if he doesn't want to be top dog. Maybe he did it at his parents urging, but he could have told the SM he didn't want to run or spread the word not to vote for him. I saw a kid do this where he had no interest and his mom wanted him to be a PL. He threw his hat in the ring to appease his mom and promptly told his patrol mates not to vote for him on the side. The one problem I see in my opinion is making the position a one year term. That is a tall order for any young man. It needs to be 6 months so they don't burn out and other boys get a chance at the POR. I think having a SM conference or even a BOR is in order. It is the scouts career and not the parents. They don't need to be involved. The SM and scout need to have a heart to heart and find out what the underlying problem is. Is he doing it for his parents? Is he bored? Does he not like being in charge? I have my qualms about enalizing a boy and not crediting his POR if I have not stayed on top of the problem and counciled him. When an employee is doing something that bugs his boss and the boss lets it continue for a lengthy time; it is unfair to call the employee in when you've had your fill and fire him if you've never told him there is a problem. If he is doing the job to the best of his ability, work with him and credit him. If he is doing it because his mom wants him to and is blowing it off, council him. If htere is no improvment, remove him and replace him and give him no credit. He needs to know what is expected and with help, step up and do his best.

Whatever happened to the conservative belief in capitalism? Oh yeah, the neocons have hijacked the Republican party and are trying to push a religious agenda. So much for limited government. Let Bank of America do what they want and let their customers decide what they want to do about it. It is called the American way.

I failed to mention that when I took WB, I was the Cub Committee Chair of our Pack. Our Cubmaster was on the staff of my WB course. His enthusiasm was contagious. Along with myself, 3 other leaders in our Pack attended that WB course. That made 20 ticket items that benefited our Pack and gave us 5 WB trained leaders. The next year, we had 2 or 3 others go. Evidently, we started a tradition in the Pack that carries on even after we all crossed to Boy Scouts. For the course I am staffing this fall, there are 2 leaders from my old Pack attending. Cubbers need WB!

Ditto to Lisabob's post. When we were recruiting for this fall's WB course, we targeted Cub leaders above all others. Don't get me wrong, we recruited everyone in sight and signed up anyone we could, but we specifically were instructed to target Cub leaders. The reasons were basically everything Lisa said. I'm proud to report that we have out done all previous courses on recruiting. We had 56 paid participants for a course with a maximum of 48 by mid-May with the course being held in September.

WOW!!! Two treats! A dog story and our long lost dsteele has found his way back home. Welcome back! We've missed you!

I'm kind of with Vicki on this. Let's say that troop 123 has 20 scouts. 10 scouts leave and start troop 321. While all 20 scouts were part of troop 123, they decided on a going to summer camp at Camp Itchybloomers. Most summer camps require payments and merit badge choices to be made long before summer camp begins. From my experience with starting a new troop a couple of years ago, the council and camp bent over backwards to make space for us at summer camp. Merit badge choices have been made and fees paid. The only difference now is two troops instead of one. I'd contact the council/camp and see if there is any way to fit the new troop in to a different week than the old troop. Camps are pretty darn flexible. If they were not, they'd go out of business. Once you get past this, hopefully everyone can go their own way and leave each other alone.

I'll be getting my third bead this fall. Am I staffing to get the extra bead? No. It is because I believe in what the course has to offer scouters who in turn use what they learn to the benefit of the boys in their unit. I always wear my beads for two reasons. One, I'd never think of telling a boy that he is showing off or being arrogant or elitist for wearing his rank and position patch on his uniform. He earned them, he should wear them proudly. We lead by example, so I wear mine. Second, there is a man who played a major role in my youth. He was an assistant baseball coach on my first baseball team in first grade. He was my Cubmaster. Later, his family joined the church I attended and he was one of the youth sponsors in the church. Just about every activity I did in the church youth group, this man was involved in it. While I quit at Webelos, he was a SM who was a WB'er and was awarded the Silver Beaver. His son was one of my best friends in high school. The man was a Captain in the fire department and a dedicated Christian who went into music evangelism upon retirement. When my father passed away 5 years ago, this man sang at his funeral. He has been a dedicated and loyal servant to his family, church, scouting and many other organizations over his life. He led by example and I want to be as much like him as I do my own father. Each time I slip those beads over my head, I silently think of this man and aspire to fill his large shoes.

The more I learn about other people's religions, the more comfortable I am with mine. http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/02/060602155817.4608d3f6.html Charmed woman marries cobra in India Jun 02 1:43 PM US/Eastern A woman who fell in love with a snake has reportedly married the reptile at a traditional Hindu wedding celebrated by 2,000 guests in India's Orissa state. Bimbala Das wore a silk saree for the ceremony Wednesday at Atala village near the Orissa state capital Bhubaneswar. Priests chanted mantras to seal the union, but the snake failed to come out of a nearby ant hill where it lives, the Press Trust of India (PTI) said. A brass replica snake stood in for the hesitant groom. "Though snakes cannot speak nor understand, we communicate in a peculiar way," Das, 30, told the agency. "Whenever I put milk near the ant hill where the cobra lives, it always comes out to drink. "I always get to see it every time I go near the ant hill. It has never harmed me," she added. Villagers welcomed the wedding in the belief it would bring good fortune and laid on a feast for the big day. Snakes and particularly the King Cobra are venerated in India as religious symbols worn by Lord Shiva, the god of destruction. Das, from a lower caste, converted to the animal-loving vegetarian Vaishnav sect whose local elders gave her permission to marry the cobra, the world's largest venomous snake that can grow up to five metres. "I am happy," said her mother Dyuti Bhoi, who has two other daughters and two sons to marry off. "Bimbala was ill," Bhoi told local OTV channel. "We had no money to treat her. Then she started offering milk to the snake ... she was cured. That made her fall in love." Das has moved into a hut built close to the ant hill since the wedding. Earlier this year, a tribal girl was married off to a dog on the outskirts of Bhubaneswar.

Ed, Your denominational preference (doctrinal difference) is the flavor of Christianity that you subscribe to. What one denomination believes is differnt from what another one believes, yet both call themselves Christians. You changed your story. You said that you ask them if they believe in God. We said you should ask them how they do their duty to God. You said no, I ask them if they believe in God. You never said that you ask about duty first and then are told by the boy that they do not believe. If you are indeed asking about duty to God, then you were already doing what we suggested....yet disagreed with.

Ed, Ahhhh, a Presbyterian....therefore a Calvinist. Why not just cut to the chase when a boy joins the troop and ask if he has been Elected to Salvation by God thru Predestination and Foreordination? If not, he is depraved and therefore could have no desire or ability to do duty to God. Get all of that out of the way up front and you don't have to worry about failing the boy on his BOR after having done all of those requirements. Do you see why asking a boy a blunt and pointed question of whether or not he believes in "God" and then holding a theological discussion with him is the wrong way to go in an organization that is non-sectarian? As I said, you are more than welcome and within guidelines to ask him how he personally has done his duty to God (as he understands God as taught within his family or church) in his daily life and to define his understading of how a scout is reverant. You do realize that your method could be appealed and you'd most likely lose don't you?

Our council's uniform police have a secret facility at another council's camp where people who use the term "class A" are taken and held.

Ditto to Saint and FScouter. I have always strived to be correctly uniformed. I can not recall ever playing uniform police to a scout or scouter....although I have wanted to a number of times. Where did people ever get the idea that you can not or should not "clue" someone in if their uniform is wrong? I can understand minding your own business, that is what I do. But in all the training and study I've done, I've never seen a policy that says you can't inform a person when their uniform is wrong. What I have seen is documentation from BSA on how it IS to be worn.

Ed: And if a Scout tells me he doesn't believe in God we talk about it. I'd be very interested in hearing your conversation with my son. I'm a life long Southern Baptist with a degree in Religion from a Baptist University, spent a year at seminary, spent some time in the ministry and am an ordained Deacon. Unless you can knowledgably discuss with my son belief in God within my theological framework, I'd prefer you keep your views to yourself. You are more than welcome to ask him to describe in his own words how he performs his duty to God and his understanding and observance of being reverant.

Campcrafter, No, the subject has never come up in any converations I've had within my scouting world. The subject belongs to the activists who want to make their lifestyle more accpeted in public life and push it in every venue they can. As stated before, I have nothing against homosexuals. My sister is a lesbian and my best friend is a gay pastor. They did not ask to be the way they are. They are entitled to live a happy life as much as anyone else. That being said, while being gay is "normal" for them, it is not the "norm". Society in general always accepts the "norm" and rejects the abnormal. A norm is a norm because it is how things are for the VAST majority of society. Obviously, in many societies and their religions, there are also moral implications concerning homosexuality. The traditional values, folkways, mores, ethics, laws, etc. of virtually every major society since recorded history has rejected homosexuality. BSA reflects that same traditional value.