SR540Beaver

I know we have an Indian tribe that rents our summer camp and a religious group that rents another property each year, but it is not while summer camp is in session.

I forgot to mention that the adults did step in with the first troop I was briefly associated with. The boys had gotten lazy and then lazier. They were eating pop tart and ramen. They got so lazy, they quit boiling water for the ramen and started eating the bricks of dried noodles straight from the package. That's when the adults stepped in and provided a frame for what they could and could not do menu wise and cooking wise. I'm all for boy led until there is no leadership at all.

I'm a CS guy, getting involved with our CO's troop. Talking wit the SM the other day, and was surprised to hear that the adults will eat whatever the boys are cooking.

I thought that the norm would be more like the adults set up camp near the boys for emergency response and guidance, and that the adults could even lead by example.... that it's possible to eat "this good" if you plan and work for it!

So how does your troop work the food at camps?

 

There are as many different methods as there are troops. Our troop has the adult "patrol". We camp together away from the boys and plan a menu, shop for and cook our own food just like they do. The method you described is what happens at Jamboree. There are 4 adult leaders and 4 youth senior leadership and 4 patrols. We had a rotating schedule and an adult and senior leader would eat with adifferent patrol for each meal. That is done more for the time limits that come with a Jambo than anything else and provides time to get to know the boys who are in our charge for such a short time.

 

An issue I had with my troop was that we provided different equipment to the adults than we did to the youth. The SM at times would be concerned with how long it took the patrols to cook and do KP. Well, they didn't have the turkey cookers type burners and large pots we had. They had coleman stoves and small pots. A horse and buggy is going to take longer to get to town than a racecar. I mention this because I think it is important for adults to set the example. We really shouldn't set ourselves apart and use better equipment than they have. That can create resentment. So can "eating better" than them. But all we do is plan a menu of what we want to eat using the ssame amount of money they do. They choose fast and simple. We take this as an opportunity to challenge them to stretch themselves in the cooking arena. They too can eat just like the adults if they really want to. There is always a standing offer to show them how.

 

Honestly. I've seen what the boys "cook" and eat for the past 10 years and I prefer to stay in my area and eat the adult food.

 

All lodges are not created equal, My sons chapter stinks, so he attends another chapter and attends the lodge level events.

 

Is the Lodge just slave labor for the councils camps???? Is there any program to speak of.???? While it is the Brotherhood of cheerful service, Many councils abuse this. This may be the case.

 

Has anyone actually sat down and asked the SM why? Not try to change his mind but just why???

 

 

As an SM I have a hard time sending my guys to set up and tear down camps and work the for profit council events.

 

 

But honestly the OA is nothing more than a lodge flap to 90% of the OA members.

"But honestly the OA is nothing more than a lodge flap to 90% of the OA members."

 

Sad but true. While there is plenty of blame to go around, part of that problem is because SM's won't support the program. It's no different than the uniform. Show me adult leaders who won't wear the uniform correctly and I'll show you a troop full of boys who won't either. Show me adult leaders who are fair weahter campers and I'll show you a troop full of boys who won't go out in the cold or rain. It's a two edged sword. The Lodge needs to provide a program that makes boys want to participate, but if their adult leaders don't support it, neither will they.

Sentinel1947,

Take heart, NYLT is doing away with the generic nature they adopted when the course went coed. I unfortunately had to run my course under this generic model and I struggled remembering not to use SPL, PL, Patrol meeting, Patrol names, etc. The course will remain coed, but they are going back to the Boy Scout Troop/Patrol model and terminology. The excuse I heard....I mean reason....is that the Boy Scouts in the courses struggled with the generic position names while the Venturing kids had no problem adjustin to using the Boy Scout terms. So the coed program for both Boy Scouts and Venturers will once again use the terminology and model that was being used earlier.

Sentinel, I looked at my old syllabus and it says that Venturing was included in 2010, so that would be when it went coed. It also listed changes for 2011 as the terminology changing. That was when it went away from troop/patrol terminology and became generic. My course was in 2012. I have wracked my brain trying to remember the source of the change back to using the old terminlogoy, but I can't find it. I can assure you it was from an official and reputable source. I'm guessing that the change starts this year as I heard it last year. I actually believe it was during one of our council youth training committee meetings after our 2014 course directors returned from the course directors conference.

Sentinel1947,

Take heart, NYLT is doing away with the generic nature they adopted when the course went coed. I unfortunately had to run my course under this generic model and I struggled remembering not to use SPL, PL, Patrol meeting, Patrol names, etc. The course will remain coed, but they are going back to the Boy Scout Troop/Patrol model and terminology. The excuse I heard....I mean reason....is that the Boy Scouts in the courses struggled with the generic position names while the Venturing kids had no problem adjustin to using the Boy Scout terms. So the coed program for both Boy Scouts and Venturers will once again use the terminology and model that was being used earlier.

 

peridochas,

 

I was an NYLT course director in the fall of 2012 and I'm on the youth training committee for our council. Just like Wood Badge, a course director signs a pledge to deliver the course as written. I can assure you, what the youth experienced during their course is not part of the NYLT course material. Someone decided to wing it and make it "better" or more to their own personal liking. The council training chair and the Scout Executive need to be asked and provide an answer on how this was allowed to happen. In fact, if you've been to Wood Badge, NYLT is almost identical material simply tweaked for a younger crowd. Heck, they don't even use the Game of Life from WB in NYLT. It's a very positive course that stresses servant leadership. All of the material supports the oath and law. Unless the youth just got some sort of twisted view or is overly sensitive and prone to exageration......which I doubt, someone needs to account for what happened and give assurances that any future course will be held strictly by the book.

 

I know I'm going to get beat up on, but I'll say my piece. I have nothing aginst the Venturing program. I wish it well. I admit, I was not around at it's inception. But Venturing is the program put together by BSA to appease all the people with things they didn't like about Boy Scouts. It's for the people who don't like advancement. It's for the people who don't like uniforms. It's for the people who don't like a structured program. It's for people who want a coed program. It's for people who don't necessarily want the program focus to be outdorrs. It is BSA's, anti-Boy Scout program. A lot of the crews I see basically just hang out. Not all, but some. The seem to not have any structure or direction or purpose. And they suffer from the kids who do participate leaving for college. I can see why the professionals" think" they need to do something different. It just doesn't get the same traction as Boy Scouts.

ABC123,

 

OA elections might seem confusing, but they really aren't if done correctly. As a Chapter Adviser, I was adament with my election teams that they convey the information to the unit. Before I became Adviser, the guys would wing it and adlib the presentation. It sucked. There is a very good video produced by national that trains election teams and another that explains the election process in great and easy to understand terms for the units. There is also a written script for the election team to use in presenting to the unit. My guys who were doing elections were also my ceremony guys for the most part. I knew that they didn't want to learn another script. So what we worked out was that I didn't care if they read the script. The important thing was that the information was conveyed t othe unit fully and correctly. We did overkill. We played the video, read the script and then opened it up to questions before ever passing out the ballot. But that doesn't really answer your question. Prior to arrinving to do an election, we were in cotact with the Scoutmaster and explained in great detail how the process would work and what the qualifications were for candidates. We even provided a ballot template for him to use. Occasionally we would arrive and they would forget we were coming....even though we had been in contact with them within the previous week. They would be totally unprepared....which is odd since our motto is Be Prepared. I've seen an SM ask for a show of hands of who wanted to be in the OA without considering the qualifications. I've seen them not have ballots prepared and scouts had to hand write the names on scraps of papers. Let me tell you, it's difficult to count ballots when people don't write the names in the same order. The bottom line is that the names on the ballot fall entirely to the SM and we trust that he has followed the procedures and policies of who should be there. He is the "gatekeeper" of who gets on the ballot. As others have said, I'm sure he is a good guy and I know he has a big job in addition to family and a paying job. Hopefully the election team did a good job of explaing the process to him to prepare him for assisting in a successful election. Hopefully your exclusion was just an oversight on his part. The good news is that the election team will be back next year. Hang in there.

Yes qwazse. We do elections in the last quarter of the year for the coming year. We do call outs in the spring during Camporees and have an Ordeal in May and August. If a unit doesn't "get with the program" and puts offrespoding to our requests to provide an election, we can technically do them up until the first Ordeal. But we really try to get them all done prior to December 31st.

ABC123,

 

OA elections might seem confusing, but they really aren't if done correctly. As a Chapter Adviser, I was adament with my election teams that they convey the information to the unit. Before I became Adviser, the guys would wing it and adlib the presentation. It sucked. There is a very good video produced by national that trains election teams and another that explains the election process in great and easy to understand terms for the units. There is also a written script for the election team to use in presenting to the unit. My guys who were doing elections were also my ceremony guys for the most part. I knew that they didn't want to learn another script. So what we worked out was that I didn't care if they read the script. The important thing was that the information was conveyed t othe unit fully and correctly. We did overkill. We played the video, read the script and then opened it up to questions before ever passing out the ballot. But that doesn't really answer your question. Prior to arrinving to do an election, we were in cotact with the Scoutmaster and explained in great detail how the process would work and what the qualifications were for candidates. We even provided a ballot template for him to use. Occasionally we would arrive and they would forget we were coming....even though we had been in contact with them within the previous week. They would be totally unprepared....which is odd since our motto is Be Prepared. I've seen an SM ask for a show of hands of who wanted to be in the OA without considering the qualifications. I've seen them not have ballots prepared and scouts had to hand write the names on scraps of papers. Let me tell you, it's difficult to count ballots when people don't write the names in the same order. The bottom line is that the names on the ballot fall entirely to the SM and we trust that he has followed the procedures and policies of who should be there. He is the "gatekeeper" of who gets on the ballot. As others have said, I'm sure he is a good guy and I know he has a big job in addition to family and a paying job. Hopefully the election team did a good job of explaing the process to him to prepare him for assisting in a successful election. Hopefully your exclusion was just an oversight on his part. The good news is that the election team will be back next year. Hang in there.

 

Hmmmmm, we have a state supreme court justice in our troop. He's also served as our district chair. Of course, here in Oklahoma, we tend to appreciate the value the BSA brings to youth instead of finding a politically correct cause to attack it with.

 

There's another thread here somewhere. But the general thinking is that the voting pool from whom a youth is elected into O/A should range from the 11 to 17 year-olds members of the unit. (In my troop, doing right by the cross-overs is critical to being elected.)

 

Members of Crews do not have an 11-13 y/o constituency in their own unit.

 

Regardless of the logic you choose to use, it's up to the young Arrowmen to enact change in their order. Rant here, and be sure no change will be made. Appeal to them to bring it up at NOAC and other conclaves, and perhaps you will begin to see movement on this issue via their good graces.

As a former Chapter Adviser, I've facilitated a good number of unit elections. While a youth ages out of the unit at 18, the OA considers him a youth until he turns 21. So even if he is serving the unit as a registered adult, he can be elected and participate in voting until 21. So your youth membership pool and voting pool runs from 11 to 21. Crossovers can present a problem depending on when a Lodge decides to hold unit elections. It is quite possible to get crossovers two weeks ago and hold a uit election today. They simply don't know the boys they are voting on yet. When voting, you can vote yes for as many people on the ballot as you want or vote for none of them. You can also abstain from voting by not turning a ballot in. The vote count is based off of the number of ballots turned in. You must have better than 50% yes votes of the total ballots turned in to be elected. Lets say you have 10 troop members and 5 crossovers. The 5 crossovers don't really know the boys on the ballot yet, so they turn in a ballot with no one voted on. If they are not marked on the ballot, it is a no vote. So now a boy has to have 8 votes to be elected. He already has 5 no votes from the crossovers. If the crossovers do not turn in a ballot, then that leaves 10 ballots instead of 15 and they only need 6 votes to be elected. It really isn't fair to have some kid who is a model scout and has been hoping for years to be elected have his hopes dashed because kids who don't know him leave his name unchecked on the ballot. That is why they (or any scout) can abstain by not turning in a ballot that would count against a boy. We do our very best to make sure they understand how the voting works before passing out ballots. I hope that was as clear as mud. The election rules are readily available on the national OA website.

I came from a larger troop. We had JASM's, but it was the SM's judement call on who was made JASM. Obviously, they have to be 16. Our troop did a pretty good job of retaining older scouts. Just being 16, didn't qualify you for being a JASM. For the most part, our JASM's were guys who had moved up the leadership ranks thru the years from APL to PL to ASPL to SPL. Most had been a TG to our new scout patrols. They were Eagle or just a couple of steps away from it. At 16, many of them had taken on jobs to pay for cars and couldn't be at every meeting or every campout, but they still had a desire to be active in the troop and it's leadership. Bumping a 16 year old kid who has been SPL back to a patrol member with a 12 year old PL is a quick way to get rid of experienced scouts with a lot of mentoring to give. They never told the SPL what to do, but were always a good sounding board for the troop leadership. They also would do special assignments. It is a worthy position that can help retain older scouts who have "bben there and done that" multiple times over. You trained them and trusted them, now put that talent you cultivated to work doing something that will keep them engaged and strengthen your program.

I attended the National Planning meeting in December. The proposed Brotherhood ceremony was approved with changes. From there it goes to the BSA side for approval, branding, etc. The new ceremony is supposed to be available this summer. The script will only be online for download and yes, it will be password protected. I can ask around about Pre-Ordeal, but I haven't heard anything changing with that ceremony. I am longtime OA friends with a couple of the guys that did the rewrite.

I'm surprised to hear this. I saw the new ceremony at conclave and it received mostly negative feedback from all the people I visited with about it. Perhaps the feedback was different from the other conclaves or the powers that be decided to go ahead and do what they wanted to regardless.

I'm sorry to post again with another topic ….

There is a possibility of another Resident Camp in our Council (slight). Currently there is one summer Resident Camp offered for our Cub Scouts in the Council and it is about a 10hr drive from us (longer for others). There is the possibility of starting another one closer to our location (this would encompass 2 of the 5 Districts in our Council), but this needs to be at little/ no cost to our Council due to recent budget cuts.

Since this will benefit me, my sons, and my Cub Scouts, I'm VERY interested in this possibility. Day camp has been discussed, but in our District there is about 1- 1 1/2 hour drive between Packs, so Day Camp would be difficult.

I guess what I am looking for are ideas for theme, program activities, budget estimate (especially for program), staff (we're looking at no more than 100 persons total including staff, Cubs, and leaders/ adults), and what other areas may charge for participation (from Scouts and adults) to provide plan/ estimate to our Council Camping Committee. What do people think of Resident Family Camp?? Looking at 4 1/2 -5 1/2 days of program available to Scouts Wolf through Webelos.

I have already asked Council for historic numbers, but would like input from other persons/ places. The challenge is there is historically a VERY low showing for Resident Camp, so it would be nice to offer something special and intriguing for these Cub Scouts and family (program!!!!). Any help and ideas for developing this opportunity would be great. Thank you!!!!

 

I honestly don't know how other councils do resident camp. Ours basically runs the full month of June and we do two sessions per week. First session starts at 1 PM on Sunday and runs thru 10 AM on Wednesday. Second session runs from 1 PM on Wednesday thru 10 AM on Saturday. So our resident camp is a half week which is perfect for Cubs. The attendance varies from session to session, but we have sessions where there are 450 Cubs and family members and we have to run two shifts in the dining hall. Until this year, we have had the same camp director and program director for over 20 years, so we have a very established tradition and reputation. They have both retired and turned the reins over to newer and younger folks. The transition has gone well from what I can tell and attendance shouldn't drop off. A plus is that our resident camp is probably no more than 2 to 2.5 hours from the furthest locations in the council. For distance like your speaking of, if there is a high enough population of Cubs in the far reaches of your council to make it cost effective, the council should be delivering the program to them.

Wow! I can't believe that this topic has generated so much heat. Everyone needs to step back and realize that their troop is not the "norm". No troop is. Each one is unique and individual. I've learned this by being in a troop of about 15 boys, another troop of about 5 boys and another troop of 60......now 80 boys. I've been an ASM for 2 Jambos. I've served as a Campmaster and visited with many, many troops of every size and sort imaginable. Heck, I visited on one "troop" when I was Campmaster and there wasn't a boy in sight. I asked where their boys were and they told me that none of the boys could make the campout, so the adult leaders came by themselves. A to Z doesn't cover the different types of troops out there. I've seen troops where the boys and adults camp together and do nothing all day but poke sticks in the fire or nap. I've seen troops like my 60 boy troop that had every minute of the weekend program scheduled by the boys and they did things like climb/rappel, day hike, wilderness survival, canoeing, etc. Regardless of the size and type of troop, as long as the boys are planning their program, carrying it out and camping by patrol with a minimum of interaction by the SM and ASM's, who is at camp and who isn't should be fairly transparent. In our troops, the boys camped by patrol and did their own cooking, set-up, tear down, KP, etc. The adults and any younger children who came along did the same. They don't interact with the scouts. They don't participate in the program. They are merely camping in their own area and cooking as an adult patrol. It in no way interfers or interrupts the program being delivered. I know this to be true because I was involved in this method for 7 years.

 

As a side note, our Cub resident camp has a new camp director. I helped staff the kitchen at the fall weekend camps they hold each weekend in October. We typically have around 350 to 400 campers on any given weekend. She did her job with her 6 month old daughter in a carrier on her back. I'd never seen that done before, but she did an outstanding job. I realize it isnt Boy Scout camping, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do and you find a way to make it work. If a leader needs to bring a younger child on a Boy Scout outing, it isn't the end of the world as long as you lay down some ground rules.

I'm sure it's a troop by troop thing as there are still some knuckle draggers out there who won't let women camp with the troop. In the troop I serve, everyone is welcome. But then we have 80 scouts, so the SM and 1 or 2 ASM's aren't quite enough to transport boys and gear. We need drivers with multiple seats and if that is all they do, we're good with that. If they want to bring their son or daughter, were good with that. Whatever it takes to get the help we need to deliver the program. That being said, we run a boy led program and the adults and their younger children are taught from day one to stay in their area and leave the boys and patrols alone. If we want to enter their patrol site, we ask permission just as they do when they need to enter ours. Also, the vast majority of adults that do camp with us are registered and have taken training for climbing/rappeling, shooting sports, etc. They can help where we need adults to deliver those proram elements that require adults or they can sit in their camp chair and chill all weekend.

Actually, I am appalled at the attitude of adult leaders when it comes to the value of the uniform. Just go out there and read the excerpts from Scouting and our founder Lord Baden-Powell regarding the purpose the uniform serves to the program and the community. While returning from our Scout Camp, we happened upon and accident. When we stepped in to help I heard someone say thank God some Scouts are here. The uniform symbolizes a purpose and expectation which brings peace of mind, comfort and fellowship to the community. Like the purpose of the neckerchief. I have witnessed or been part of two occasions where the neckerchief was used in emergency service. Not only an excellent decoration to complete the look of the uniform, it is a tool when needed. We were pleased to have been prepared on those occasions. There is an excellent quote from Lord Baden-Powell, “Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I will show you a poorly uniformed Scout Masterâ€Â. Adults suck it up, we lead by example and yes everyone is watching.

What jblake said. I've worked with underprivileged scouts as well and they were all fully uniformed. It isn't difficult to do.

The only time I see dressier pants is with our OA Lodge leadership. They've decided to have a professional appearance because of some of the things they are called on to do. Each year, our Lodge Chief gives an address to the State Legislature, he sits on the Council Board, etc. Our Lodge Adviser, Chief and VC's all wear the poly/wool uniform shirt and pants. I'm a Lodge Associate Adviser and I do not wear them. I will say that even though they look really nice when they go somewhere, I don't find a poly/wool uniform practical for their site visit to our summer camp. The one thing I do find humorous is their shoe selection. Of course hiking boots kind of clash with a poly/wool uniform. Our Adviser is an old fraternity boy and he likes to wear Sperry Topsiders, so that is the "official" unofficial shoe of choice for our OA leadership. They look great for indoor meetings, but are not very practical at our camp properties.

Just curious........how much camping does your pack do? You do realize that while it is perfectly fine to do so, it is not the norm. We have some packs that camp more than others, but I believe the majority of our packs take advantage of our district day camps, council cub resident camp (summer) and our council spring (May) and fall (October) weekend camps. Those all come with a camp and program director and camp cooks. Most packs are just not geared up like troops are for frequent camping and they are not broken into patrols where the boys are mature enough to take care of themselves. Many cub parents look at cub camping like a trip to the lake. Time to relax while someone else does the work. I'm not trying to discourage you. Cubs need to be exposed to camping, but I personally believe it needs to be in measured doses. Back when we were in Cubs, we had those who camped and those who wanted nothing to do with it. They were active and supportive families who loved the program, but they had no desire to camp. When crossover time came, you had a pretty good idea who was crossing and who was leaving based on who camped and who didn't. When they move to Boy Scouts, they will be camping 12 months per year for up to 7 years give or take. While you want a Cub familiar with camping, you don't want them burned out by the time they crossover. I believe in our pack, the Webelos had about 5 to 6 camping opportunities per year. The 4 I mentioned above, a Webelos Den campout and maybe a trip with a prospective troop to crossover.

 

 

 

 

All of that being said, it sounds as if you need to take a page from the Boy Scouts and more or less form patrols for the adults. Base it off of their den. Lay down some basic camp rules or meal times, lights out, physical camp boundaries, cooing, KP, latrine cleanup, etc. Make a roster and give everyone a job. Buld the campout around program and keep them busy. A sound argument can be made to the parents about the need for organization and using the campouts to help with advancement requirements. Thos who want a lazy weekend staying up until 3 AM or worse yet.....letting their kids stay up until then, can decide whether they want to go on an organized pack campout or do their own thing at the lake during the summer.

 

99% of what our government does in the area of the nanny state is a Ponzi.... always has been always will be until the people call them on it. They won't though, they like the check coming in each month. It's free money anyway.

 

Stosh

Well, except for the Tea Party folks who do call them on it, but we all know they are terrorists, anarchists, arsonists, people with bombs strapped to their chests, and extortionists who want to destroy America thru responsible taxation and spending. How dare they! http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/10/66593/

I saw a video last week where a guy on the street was asking people who deserved the blame for the recent government shutdown, Obama or Bush. The majority said Bush. Low information voters blaming a guy who has been out of office for 5 years. Go figure.

At the risk of angering some here who may be LDS, it has been my personal observation that many of the stories we hear regarding deaths, injuries and just dumb antics come from LDS troops. Not all, but many. I'm not anti-LDS. I don't know what it is like in Utah where the vast majority of scouts are LDS, but where I'm from, the LDS troops participate in nothing......including training. Most LDS leaders don't register because they want to, but because they are directed to. They use the Boy Scout program, but they don't necessarily follow the Boy Scout program. I believe that if they would participate in the available training and network with units and leaders outside of LDS, they would be the better for it. Just my .02 cents. I apologize if that is offensive to anyone.

SR540 I was at that ceremony also and you are correct, she is always a pleasure to have along with our Crew on a couple occasions.

" Someone either considers you their mentor or doesn't and uses it to recognize your contribution to their life." A truer statement has never been said. Wear the pin with pride & congrats!! A special recognition from a special Venturer.

Thank you!

Fox News calls it both a "shutdown" and a "slimdown."

Hmmmm, I was unaware that ALL search and rescue folks only worked for the federal government.