SR540Beaver

Summer, fall, winter and spring, we meet and camp.

The safeguarded Order of the Arrow subforum for members-only discussion seems to have disappeared. Is this a permanent change or will it return?

It will return once they work out how to keep it safeguarded.

The safeguarded Order of the Arrow subforum for members-only discussion seems to have disappeared. Is this a permanent change or will it return?

It will return once they work out how to keep it safeguarded.

1) When I opened this thread for the first time today, it hesitated, and I finally noticed that the page count was "1 of 1". Then it changed to "2 of 2" then "3 of 3" then "4 of 4" . The old system would immediately note the total page count .

2) Note the notation at the head of this page: What is a "STICKY TOPIC"?? I thought we ate the last of the "pie".

3) Is there still an archive of the old magazine? Or do we google that?

Slow response time is always frustrating regardless of where it happens. Please do keep in mind that Scouter.com is a FREE service provided out of a love for Scouting. We are probably never going to see lightening fast response time.

Look, I have my gripes about how national and local councils operate as much as the next scouter. But the BSA is between a rock and a hard place right now. It's obvious......at least to me....that the possible change in policy is financially driven. BSA has always enjoyed support by the business community. Many of those businesses are politcally correct because to do otherwise would make them a target of activists just like the BSA. So in order to keep vocal customers happy, said businesses start telling the BSA that until they change their traditional ways, they can no longer support them financially. BSA has to make a decision of how to keep the lights on and starts mulling over the change. The other side of the equation is that the majority of the charters are churches....some of who might support the change and some who might not. Now they have to consider how much loss of membership they might incur as opposed to how much financial support they are losing. It's a tightrope they are walking. I would assume that the delay is due to having heard from the rank and file membership who say they will leave. I don't envy the decision makers.

Felicitations and salutations!

I do note that President Obama seems emboldened to finally state his views since he has no other higher office to run for or be reelected to. Too bad he was unwilling to have the courage of his convictions until now.

Hopefully you've seen several of the improvements and bug fixes that you've been reporting over the past couple of days. After our first major software upgrade in more than 10 years' date=' there's been a few bumps, and I appreciate your patience. This thread is being created as a single, public forum where I encourage you to post any remaining issues or suggestions you want us to address, or helpful usability advice you can share with others based on your experience so far. Even if you've previously suggested something.... if it doesn't yet appear to be fixed, please post it again here. And if you agree with a suggestion that gets posted, you can Like or comment on that post to help bring it to our attention. [/quote']

 

if some of you are new to vBulletin software, this is one of the nice features. If you click on quote under someone's post, it opens a window with their post quoted for you to respond to. No more cutting and pasting. You can also bold or color a portion you want to respond to or click inside the quote and delete anything you aren't specifically responding to. A bit of forum etiquette, you never modify another person's quote. That's a no no.

 

i know there are other features in the software that Terry would have to approve and turn on. One is a reputation system. It is easy for users to abuse and I don't know if it would really be appropriate in this forum. It allows you to give positive or negative rep to another user. It displays on any post you make and is more or less an indicator of "popularity". In a favorable light, it's kind of a truth in posting kind of thing. It marks a person whose posts are found to be useful, helpful or simply agreed with. On another board I frequent, there is also a Thanks button at the bottom of each post. It doesn't give rep points, but simply is an agreement with the post. I suspect in our environment, that is what the Like button is. The difference I see here is it doesn't list WHO liked the post. On my other board, it does.

 

Edited to add, the quote of Terry's post in my post is supposed to be in a box inside my post. That apparently isn't functioning properly here.

Are there any ultra or mega mods?

Sentinel: "What can the gay/atheist lobby sue a Charter Org for? Discrimination? The Dale decision is still the law of the land. A private organization, which all Charter Organizations are, can set their membership policy. A group that were to sue a Charter Org would lose that suit."

Yes, for discrimination. Of course they would lose in the short term. But just like the BSA, the constant pick, pick, picking at CO's will have a cumulative effect. The CO has to put up with picketers, negative media attention and pay for legal counsel that takes money away from their purpose and mission. Do you honestly think the BSA is entertaining the change in their policy because they have finally come around to believing it's the right thing to do or because they have tired of the fight and continual cost? I think it is the latter. I believe it is because they have been worn down and just want to get on with things. Instead of choosing one way or another and continuing to take the heat from one side or the other, they've shifted the burden onto the local CO's. They'll either give into demands or they'll fold the unit.

On one hand, I think the "local option" is the best way to approach this. On the other hand, I think the "local option" is a cowardly move by national. The local option puts the unit (actually the CO) at risk of legal action. I am not anti-gay, so please don't take what I'm about to say wrong. Many in the LGBT movement have a chip on their shoulder. They've grinded away at national and sponsors of BSA until they have gotten BSA to reconsider their ban. Do we honestly think that when a CO who happens to have the "hottest, best" troop in the whole council continues their ban that someone isn't going to file a discrimiation suit against that CO? It's coming. It'll happen. A local CO doesn't have as deep of pockets as national with a boat load of lawyers to defend it like national does. The CO will have two choices. Cave in against their principle or close their unit and walk away. It's coming. It'll happen. how many times will it happen is the question? Enough for membership to dwindle significantly? Maybe. Maybe not. Has anyone here ever tried to establish a new unit? I have. There aren't churches, schools or organizations banging on the council doors wanting to start a unit. You have to sell them on the idea. I went to numerous places back in 2004, including my own churhc and was politely told thanks, but no thanks. The reason why in each case, they didn't want gays and atheists picketing the property. That is an honest and true story. So, on one hand, "local option" sounds great as long as the LGBT community leaves those units who want to remain "traditional" alone. On the other hand, where CO's do get challenged, national has left the CO twisting in the wind. Time will tell.

My disclaimer: Before I get accused of not understanding or being homophobic, my sister who I love dearly is a lesbian and my best friend from college who I love dearly is gay. I'm fine with it.

Beavah - "I'm not sure why this is so hard to grok, but let me try to make it simple and bold. If a boy cannot perform the skill six months later then he was never proficient in the first place. Your test failed. Yeh signed him off when yeh shouldn't have. You blew it. You let the boy down by not givin' him da real Scouting program."

Yah, I'm not sure why this is hard for you to grok, perhaps I'm not usin' da correct accent, eh? Thank you for finally agreeing with me when I said, "If SM's are signing off when a boy is not proficient, that is on the adult and the program. If boys are not being given the opportunity to use the skills and maintain proficiency, that is on the adult and the program. I don't understand why so many adults don't get this. If little Johnny isn't proficient......why did you sign him off. If little Johnny isn't retaining it......why is your program not designed to provide the opportunity."

When BSA decides to do a comprehensive review of every requirement from Tenderfoot to Eagle to earn the Eagle rank, you'll have a comparison to your bar exam. Currently it doesn't. It relies on the adults in charge of program to determine a boy's proficiency, sign off on it and provide a program where the skill can be used and honed. Whether we like it or not, that is how the real system is currently set up. If you believe differently, I'll be happy to look at the program documentation you provide that informs your opinion.

OGE - "Beavah, if you are going to mention me and my "position", could you at least try to accurately represent it?"

I'm going to have to second that.

Me: Imagine a college student in his second semester of his senior year. Before he can graduate, he has to be retested on every course he took the previous seven semesters. Would you pass?

Beavah: Well, I reckon some of us had to take da Bar Exam, testin' us on all da courses of all three years of law school. I reckon other folks here had to take medical board exams, eh? Other folks who have gone through business school will tell yeh that many have a "capstone" course or experience that requires yeh to use all da knowledge from all your courses. Anybody who has done graduate work will probably tell yeh they had to pass oral and written qualifyin' exams, testing 'em on all da material in all their courses.

So I'd say da answer is ABSOLUTELY YES. If yeh really learned da material, of course you can pass a comprehensive exam. Just like if yeh really learned how to ride a bike, of course yeh can still ride a bike.

My Response: Apples and oranges. When you decide to be a lawer or doctor, you know that there will be bar or medical board exams at the end. You know as well as I do, that there is a whole industry out there to prepare people for those exams. In scouting, national is pretty clear about there not being a comprehensive exam at the BOR. Imagine a kid's surprise when after testing and being signed off by the SM as having fulfilled that requirement to earn the rank that he is now going to have to do it all over again to really earn it. It isn't part of the program. His buddy across town doesn't have to do it. Neither did his grandpa. When BSA makes retesting on all the material they've learned previously part of the program, then you'll have a valid apples to apples comparison.

If SM's are signing off when a boy is not proficient, that is on the adult and the program. If boys are not being given the opportunity to use the skills and maintain proficiency, that is on the adult and the program. I don't understand why so many adults don't get this.If little Johnny isn't proficient......why did you sign him off. If little Johnny isn't retaining it......why is your program not designed to provide the opportunity.

Little Johnny followed what was in the book.

Jblake47 - "Right now we are so gun shy that we don't even dare "re-test" at the BOR's. Why not? Do the kids know this stuff or not? If not, why are they advancing? "

Imagine a college student in his second semester of his senior year. Before he can graduate, he has to be retested on every course he took the previous seven semesters. Would you pass? Do the grades he made in each of those classes mean nothing?

Oh my gosh, I find it humorous that so many of our big government, nanny state liberals here are suddenly wringing their hands and clutching their pearls over the thought of sticking their hand in the taxpayer's pockets! LOL Sadly, very few actually addressed what I have said.

I am not proposing that the federal government spend $10B to put a guard in every school accross America. If you think I did, you are welcome to find the post and quote it. But for an administration that borrows 40 cents for every dollar spent, wants to increase taxes and refuses to entertain any spending cuts, I fail to see why this would be a big deal.......other than they believe guns kill people and are evil. But I digress. What I said was it is LOCAL. That means your CITY, COUNTY and/or STATE determining what solution fits you LOCALLY. Some will determine to do nothing. Some will determine to add security measures at certain grade lelels. Some will partner with their fellow civil employees, the police and use them. How to pay for it will be a LOCAL decision as well. I realize to the northeast liberal elitists, we simple folks here in Oklahoma are just knuckle dragging, backwards rednecks who like to go to church and shoot our guns. We are after all the only state where Obama didn't carry a single county. Yep, we're red. We also have some pretty good ideas and success at determining solutions and how to fund them. You see, when people find value in something and are given the opportunity to vote on taxing themselves in rder to acheive it, they respond a whole lot better than having new taxes thrust upon them because some crony somewhere has decided he knows what is best for you. We aren't perfect, but we have a few things figured out that seems to be eluding much of the rest of the nation. I ask that before you start throwing around more strawman arguments, that you think outside the box and think local instead of federal. It's kinda what our founders intended in the constitution you know.

I've mentioned MAPS several times and it has been largely ignored by those who chose to laugh at me. I'd ask that you please take the time to follow my links. I've lived in OKC my whole life of almost 56 years. What has happened over the last 20 years here is remarkable. If we can do it, so can others. Where there is a will, there is a way. For those cities, counties and state who WANT or feel a NEED to provide security in their children's school, they can find a way to do it without someone in Maine paying for it in Nevada.

Much of what you see here is directly related to MAPS over the last 20 years.

http://www.greateroklahomacity.com/index.php?submenu=accolades_q&src=gendocs&ref=Accolades&category=QualityofLife

http://www.okc.gov/maps3/mapshistory.html

Beavah: "Again, SR540, how are yeh goin' to pay for it?"

Really? I've answered it twice. I'm sorry you don't like the answer. Go back and read it until you understand it.

"The local school systems determine the level of security and how to pay for it."

For example:

"The Oklahoma City Police Department provides school resource officers to each of the district's high schools within Oklahoma City limits."

"The Putnam City School District has high schools in three municipalities, but the Putnam City Schools Campus Police provide resource officers to all high schools."

My son attended Moore Public Schools which is a suburban area of OKC just like Putnam City. They had Moore police officers in their schools. The needs and abilites of a rural school with 50 total students K thru 12 will be far different than the needs and abilities of a suburban high school with 500 in the graduating class alone. That is why a once size fits all $10B federal program isn't needed. It's why a Department of Education isn't needed either. Federal encroachment in local education is what is hurting education instead of the intended help it was supposed to provide. The return of tax dollars thru federal funding is largely dependent on test scores. Just as unit scouters bemoan the BSA being all about the dollars, teachers must teach to the test in order to obtain high enough standardized testing scores to receive their federal funding. Real education.....innovative education suffers because a certain level must be obtained on a standard test. And because kids are not learning any more than what is on the test, our educational standing deteriorates instead of improves. Can you imagine what a boondoggle a federal school guard program would be? It is a state/local issue. That is who decides what the securit needs to be and how to pay for it.

Since both OKC police and teachers are city employees and already being paid, the money is coming from one source and already being paid. It's a decent model for others to follow and I assume is probably fairly standard among the 23,800 schools with armed guards.

Another way to fund it is what OKC has been doing for quite sometime. MAPS. MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects) is Oklahoma City's visionary capital improvement program for new and upgraded sports, recreation, entertainment, cultural and convention facilities. The projects began on December 14, 1993, when voters approved the MAPS sales tax, and were completed on August 17, 2004 with the dedication of the Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library.

MAPS was funded by a temporary one-cent sales tax approved by city voters in December 1993, and later extended an additional six months. The tax expired on July 1, 1999. During the 66 months it was in effect, over $309 million was collected. In addition, the deposited tax revenue earned about $54 million in interest. That's being used for MAPS construction, too.

The Mayor appointed a mandated 21-member citizen oversight board shortly after voters approved the projects. The board reviews project components including financing and site location and then makes recommendations to the City Council. The MAPS board led the public review process for the MAPS Master Plan which the Council approved on February 14, 1995. The board was dissolved on June 22, 2004.

Since the success of the original MAPS program, OKC voters have approved penny sales tax to fund other MAPS projects such as MAPS for Kids. The $700 million OCMAPS school program includes hundreds of construction, transportation and technology projects - all for the benefit of Oklahoma City's public school students.

Many of the largest construction projects are finished, while work continues at numerous schools throughout Oklahoma City. Over 70 new and renovated schools totaling $470 million in construction will be completed when the program draws to a close in 2012.

Program budgets for Oklahoma City Public Schools include $52 million for technology projects and $9 million for bus fleet replacement.

OCMAPS also provides funding to the 23 other public school districts that serve Oklahoma City resident students. By the conclusion of the program $153 million in city sales tax will have been expended for over 400 approved projects in the 23 suburban school districts.

The OCMAPS program was established on November 13, 2001, when Oklahoma City voters approved a new tax to fund public schools. The temporary

sales tax was collected for seven years with 70 percent disbursed to the Oklahoma City School District and 30 percent to the Suburban School Districts.

Voters also approved a $180 million bond issue to fund additional projects in Oklahoma City's District I-89.

http://www.okc.gov/maps/index.html

http://www.okc.gov/ocmaps/index.html

THAT Beavah is how you pay for something. You do it locally. You present the vision and benefit to the local citizens and let them vote on whether or not to fund it. You don't have a benevolent federal government deciding to tax you more against your will to provide a one size fits all solution of something you don't need or want. If we decide our children are at risk and need protection just like the president's children, we'll fund it.

And that is just one way to do it.

You need to quit thinking inside the federal box.

According to the FBI, in 2011 there were 323 murdered by rifle (the category "assault" rifles falls into). There were 496 murdered by blunt objects such as hammers and clubs and 1,694 murdered by knives and other cutting instruments. Unless the hammer and knife lobby is influencing legislators, why isn't there a call to study hammer and knife safetysafety?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

I was course director for our fall NYLT course this last year. While Lance had not yet fessed up, it was pretty much a forgone conclusion. Like OGE said, you do the best with what you got. We rolled with it and never looked back. I can tell you from staffing numerous WB and NYLT courses, some material gets dated and I've never heard an excuse for why BSA isn't more quick to update materials. But I'm not telling anyone anything they didn't already know.

It happened on my side of town Barry, but I think the rabblerousers infiltrated from your side. Keep your riffraff up north.

Beavah, then it must be a comprehension issue. On Friday, 1/18/2013 at 2:43:52 PM I suggested that, "The local school systems determine the level of security and how to pay for it." You are the one who thinks it will take a $10B federal program to train and equip guards. I'm sure it would if you take the usual inefficient federal bureaucracy approach. Local schools understand their needs and how to address them much better than someone sitting in Washington. In OKC, Oklahoma City Police are used, not some rent-a-cop.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-school-board-member-questions-student-arrests-on-campus/article/3607759

"Resource Officers

The Oklahoma City Police Department provides school resource officers to each of the district's high schools within Oklahoma City limits.

Last school year, officers made 843 arrests or citations. Of those 780, were for truancy or misdemeanors such as disorderly conduct. The other 63 about 7.5 percent were felonies.

Oklahoma City police Capt. Bo Mathews said school resource officers are there to enforce the law; however, unless they witness a violation firsthand, their involvement is at the discretion of teachers and principals.

The teacher signs the ticket against the student, and files that complaint against that student, Mathews said.

The Putnam City School District has high schools in three municipalities, but the Putnam City Schools Campus Police provide resource officers to all high schools.

The criminalization of students, I don't agree with that terminology, said Chief Mark Stout, who has been with the campus police for 20 years. We are working within a micro-community, and students are there for eight hours, and they need to feel safe there.

Stout said they have a zero-tolerance policy on some issues such as weapons and drugs on campus, but in all other violations, officers are using their judgment. He said the mindset of being a campus officer is different from being on the streets."

Beavah, I suggest you read my post for content.

Venividi - "SR540Beaver wrote: Beavah, the 23,800 schools that currently supply armed guards today do not do so with federal funds.

SR540, I'm not getting the point that you are trying to make. Those guards you mention do not work for free. It doesn't matter if they are paid for with federal funds, state funds, or local funds. It's still tax dollars (or borrowed dollars for which taxpayers which will need to be paid by taxpayers in the future)."

I don't think you are either. I went to Oklahoma City Schools and graduated in 1975. We had OKC policemen in our schools. Fast forward to 2013 and OKC schools still have OKC police in them. My son went to Moore Schools (OKC suburb) and graduated in 2011. The have Moore police in their schools. How are they paid? I'm not totally sure if they are on duty or off duty and being paid as security by the school system. Regardless, it is budgeted and paid by the city whether it be thru the police department or the school system. It is a cost that we locally have decided to accept and expend. Does that come from the local taxes we pay or federal funds RETURNED to us, I don't know. But it is our money to begin with regardless of whether it takes a trip thru the city or federal coffers. School security is a local option that almost a quarter of all public schools in the nation already exercise. Beavah's strawman argument is that I'm claiming that each student in America be provided the same level of security that the President's children are and that it is cost prohibitive and unneeded. He's wrong in his false assumptions. Part of my earlier point was that while our children may not be the target that the Presdient's children are, they are none the less potential targets as Sandy Hook proved. The shooter targeted specific classrooms. They may have been an illogical target of an insane person, but they were still targets. Our children go to malls, movie theaters, concerts, sporting events and visit mom and dad's office where there are armed guards. They are taught at a young age to seek these people out if lost or in danger. Having them in schools will not warp them or remove their innocence. Will it help? I don't know? But what I do know is it can't hurt and as the Presidnet is on record saying........if it saves the life of only one child, it is worth doing.

Far too many strawmen to try knocking them all down.

Beavah, the 23,800 schools that currently supply armed guards today do not do so with federal funds. The local school systems determine the level of security and how to pay for it. Where you got the idea that each individual child will have to have their own personal guard is beyond me. My son's security is just as important to me as the president children are to him, regardless of the threat level they each live with. I'd venture to say you value your own child's life too and want them to be safe and protected. If Sandy Hook taught us nothing else, it taught us that we can't just accept a false sense of security because our children are part of the general public and are not at risk. Do I think it solves the problem? Of course not. But it is an immediate and easy treatment to a multi-faceted approach. One thing is certain, the symbolic gestures of the 23 Executive Orders will do nothing to stop a Sandy Hook from happening next week or next year.

Sorry Beavah, but you are dead wrong. I hope as a scouter, you've never told a parent that their child won't be treated with the same care and respect because they aren't as important as another child in the troop. Sandy Hook wasn't high risk......until it was. Tomorrow, it could be the school, church, theater, etc. around the corner from you. We have an armed guard down in the lobby of my downtown building. Most other buildings do too. It isn't an inconvenience. Be prepared. It's the smart thing to do.