SR540Beaver

Bob,

You are correct. But, who decides the uniform and what process and compromise goes into it. I don't really have an issue with any of the uniform except the pants. I've yet to hear anyone who REALLY likes them. They are cut to slim with no room for comfort and they are binding. And the two tiny flat pockets on the frnt are basically useless. They look like they are for show only. Something like, "hey let's make the kids feel big and give them something that looks like a uniform, but it doesn't need to actually function like a real uniform". The color is right for a uniform and the extra pockets are right for a uniform. But God forbid that they can stand up to the rigors of the field and give an outdoorsman living in them for a week in the bush any comfort. One would think that the BSA is more concerned with a million pairs in inventory than giving a scout something he can get proper use out of.

sctmom,

I think it sounds like a great idea. With proper guidance, kids will often rise to your expectations. My son had a baseball coach who acted like a drill instructor most of the time. Rather than quit or complain, they learned to love baseball, it's traditions and had a blast doing it. They simply knew the rules, what was expected and followed them. I think that ore often than not the den or pack should camp together and teach/give the boys some responsibilities. It can be fun and work at the same time. Obviously, you don't want the Tigers building fires, but they can tear foil for hobo dinners and place the food in the foil pouch. Any kid can assist in pitching a tent, even if it just to hold it down in the wind while an adult drives the stakes. You can have the formality of camping as a group without being rigid about who pitches a tent next to who. There are always going to be friends and foes in any group. To force someone to camp next to each other only makes everyone miserable. Have a plan, but go with the flow.

My son just joined the Cubs as a Webelo and we went on our first overnighter this weekend at a Council event. There were only about 8 boys from our pack that attended this event. We were kind of together and kind of seperate. The officials at the camp wouldn't let the campers drive to the campground this time to unload. You had to park in the parking area and they had trucks with big trailers there for you to load your gear on. They drove to the campground and unloaded it while you walked into the campground and found your gear. Since people arrived at various times, everyone set up their camps when they found their gear. We camped with two of the other Webelos. The 4th Webelo camped by a couple of our Wolf scouts. The camp was limited to 300 campers and they said that this campout was a record for them. Everyone camped at the same area, so trying to get packs together and "stake a claim" would have been difficult.

It would have made little difference if we had tried to stay together. Registration was from 6 to 8 PM on friday night with a campfire at 8:30 PM. That lasted about an hour. They served refreshments in the mess hall. It was 10 PM before most people got back to their camp site. Breakfast was served at 7:30 AM on Saturday followed by a flag ceremony. Then the day was packed with activities and ended at 3 PM. Between all of that and setting up camp and breaking camp, there was little time for the pack to do anything as a group.

I think I sounded off in another forum concerning BDU's. While I don't advocate the use of BDU's for Scouts, my wish was for the BSA to use the same type of ripstop heavyduty material of BDU's for their uniform and to redesign the pants to a more useful and practical design. It would be nice if they were made with zip off legs to wear as either pants or shorts. The current shorts just suck plain and simple. This has nothing to do with looking like the military, just using the same types of rugged wear material for the field.

yaworski,

After reading through a number of threads in various forums, I have come to a conclusion. You are a very critical person who rarely has anything positive to say. This is a scouting forum, quit picking nits with everyone please. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

My son played competitvie baseball for 4 years from age 5 through age 8. His teams started practicing in February for the season opener in late April. The season ended very late in June. They got about two weeks off in July before they would begin practice for the Fall season that would begin in late August. It would run thru late October of early Novemeber. He played on a team at the age of 7 that played 76 league and tournament games, went undefeated for all 76 and won the state championship. Their coach had the same attitude you did about making choices. You didn't show for a practice (3 to 4 a week) and you didn't play. He expected total commitment. Parents were scared to death of scheduling a vacation except for the 2 week lag in July for fear that their son would get blackballed. For crying out loud, they were 7 year olds who wanted to ride their bikes, swim and play with their friends.

My son (now 9)went on his first Cub Scout campout this weekend and we took our first vacation out of state this summer. He asked when we did both why we had never done this before. I explained it was because we had ate, slept and lived baseball for the last 4 years. He missed out on a lot of other good experiences because of hard choices and commitments.

I used to tell him that he didn't have to play ball if he didn't want to......but he would always have to finish a season if he had committed to play. I take committment seriously to and agree that you have to make choices. You can't do it ALL.

That being said, no youth organization should put such high expectations on a kid that he can't have a well rounded group of activities to participate in.

My son just became active in Scouts and he has been taking Tae Kwon Do for the past year. He is talking about wanting to play basketball this winter. I've explained to him that he has Tae Kwon Do twice a week and Cubs once a week and that only leaves two nights a week for anything else. He would have to find a team that practices on those nights. His games would be on the weekend when he might have campouts. I'm steering him away from basketball, even though he loves to play and I enjoy him playing. But it is a sport and not church.

One should never have to make a choice between church and scouts! Ever! Any SM who thinks otherwise needs to find something else to do.

Bob White,

Not to split hairs, but we are both right in a sense. Webelos made their debut in 1941. The program was expanded 35 years ago in 1967 when I became a Webelo Scout into what it is today. Before 1967 Bear Cubs moved to Lion and then in the last few months of their Lion rank they worked towards the Webelo rank which was the equivalent of the Arrow of Light award. It was in 1967 that the Lion rank and handbook was dropped and the Webelo rank was expanded into a more formalized program complete with a handbook and uniform enhancements such as the plaid neckerchief, slide, belt buckle, etc.

http://www.troop97.net/bsahist2.htm

History of Webelos. Created in 1941, the original Webelos program consisted simply of a new Webelos rank which boys could earn during their last few months in Cub Scouting. To earn the new rank, Cub Scouts first had to earn Lion, and they had to learn the skills required for the Boy Scout Tenderfoot badge. The Cub Scouts who worked on the Webelos rank were not yet called Webelos, and they remained in a regular Cub Scout den. In 1954, 10-1/2 year olds were organized into special Webelos dens, although they still had to earn Lion to qualify for the Webelos rank. In 1967, Cub Scouting dropped the Lion rank, extended the Webelos program from six months to the last year of Cub Scouting, and created the first 15 Webelos activity badges. In 1977, they added a new Webelos rank (the old Webelos rank was now called the Arrow of Light rank). In 1987, the Webelos program added five more activity badges (for a total of 20), and realigned the requirements of several activity badges to more closely match the requirements for the Boy Scout Tenderfoot rank. In 1988-89, the Webelos program was expanded to cover the last two years of Cub Scouting, though the BSA soon after began encouraging packs to graduate Webelos in February instead of May or June (so they could get started with a Scout troop before summer, and thus be less likely to drop out over the summer).

To be pedantic, your son joined "Cub Scouts" and is a "Webelos Cub Scout" although most seem to snip the "Cub" right out of there.

Yes, I'm aware that it is all part of Cub Scouts. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I started out in Cub Scouts earning my Bobcat "pin" (this was over 35 years ago) and then Wolf and Bear and the next step was Lion. The year I was to become a Lion was when Webelos was introduced, so I became a Webelo. My wording was merely because he joined Cub Scouts as a Webelo and not at an earlier age/rank.

Ok, I'm going to look stupid here. My son just joined Webelos last week and I was one when they first started 35 years ago. I know that Akela is a/the leader and relates to the Jungle Book. Having seen the disney film when I was a kid, I know who Baloo is. But who or what the heck is Baloo in Webelos? I've yet to hear the term at the meetings I've attended or seen it in my son's Webelos book.

Another question about the colors. Someone mentioned that it be awarded when the boy gets his Bobcat or Webelos badge. I bought one when we bought the uniform. Is this something he isn't supposed to wear until it is awarded. Frankly, the literature needs to be a little clearer on what to wear and when.

My 2 cents. I was a Cub Scout 35 years ago and was a Webelo the first year the rank appeared. My 9 year old son just joined a pack last week as a Webelo I. Our pack allows the Webelos to choose between the blue Cub Scout or tan Boy Scout uniform. Some wear their neckerchef under the collar and some over. Some are tucked in and some hanging out. Basically, it is helter skelter. Mind you, we've only been in one week, so this is my first impression. My son played competitive baseball for the last four years. His coaches were adamant about their uniforms and I think scouting should be the same way. We decided before each game which uniform would be worn. You came to the game wearing the uniform properly. That meant the right socks, wear your belt, your shirt buttoned and tucked in, and your hat on the right way (not like a punk rapper). No matter how hot it was, a baseball team does not play in shorts. A player does not take the field without a hat. After the game, the coach had better not see you running around the park with your shirt unbuttoned and hanging out. When you have the uniform on and you are at the ballpark, you represent your team and will look like a ball player. Etc, etc. You get the picture. The point was teaching the boys (even at 5 years old) discipline, self-esteem and pride. They knew the rules and followed them.

I think scouting is an even more serious venture than baseball and think the pack and dens/troops and patrols should have specified uniform codes and follow them. If the boys know what is expected of them, they will have more respect and take greater pride in their uniforms and in scouting.

Having said all of that, I was somewhat shocked at the price and quality of the uniforms. We bought the olive shorts and they were either too big or too tight. They look like they won't have much give and will be binding. The pockets are too small for any useful purpose. The shirt we bought a size bigger and I think it will do fine. The epulats look cool for dress, but could be a pain in the field. I think the hats look dorky and like something my grandfather would wear. Luckily, our pack does not wear them. I bought some genuine military issue BDU's for hunting and love them. I wish the scout uniforms were made from the heavy ripstop material of the BDU's. The pants need to be looser and have roomy cargo pockets. The zippered short/long legs would be a huge plus too. The shirts need true long tails. I wouldn't mind paying the price I did if the clothing were more functional for the field and looked a little more stylish. My son has tried to talk a number of his friends into joining and everyone of them has complained about the dorky uniforms. I don't want them to turn the uniform into a preppy school uniform, but something a little more modern and stylish would attract more kids. I love tradition, but updating things can only help.