SR540Beaver

Welcome to the forums Wiseskier. There are troops that use meeting time to do this. I'd suggest against it. Does your troop do a JLT with each new round of elections? Part of that training should be teaching you how to design and run meetings. Also, do you have a copy of the SPL handbook? If not, get one. It will have sample meeting agendas that will help you learn how run fun meetings. Also, there are at least a couple of "Troop Resource" books you can get from your local scout shop if the troop doesn't already have them. These are broken into different themes such as pioneering, backpacking, orientation, etc. These lay out a months worth of meeting agendas leading up to an outing based on the theme. They even discuss which requirements can be met, have different activities listed for younger and older scouts and even games. If you are not very creative, this gives you ready made agendas and ideas....or you can take it as suggestions and rework it to the PLC's liking. I see them as training wheels to get you started until you figure out how to do itt on your own. Good luck and save the merit badges for the boys to go after on their own as they are designed to be done.

Rick, With all due respect, the fact that you need to hold a seperate training course says that there are differences between the program. When was the last time that you saw a black, asian or white only course? How about a male or female course? What about a course for Baptists or Catholics only? I think the reason for that is that all of those people operate the same program. LDS does not. Similar, but different.

le V, At $761 for an 8'x9', they are pretty proud of their tents! Are they sewn with gold thread?

I'll raise my hand for the two bag system again. We did our annual trip to Trappers Rendezvous near Newton, Kansas. This year marked the 29th anniversary of the event put on by the White Buffalo District of Quivera Council. They usually have 4,000 scouts in attendance. After last year, I swore I'd never go again. The high was 13 with snow and the low was 3 degrees. Since this year was supposed to be warmer, I went. The high on Saturday was near 50 degrees with mostly cloudy skies and the lows were in the mid-20's. Friday night was chillier than Saturday night as it had more humidity. I slept in my synthetic skivies, an under armor shirt and synthetic socks in my 15 degree bag on my thermarest. I was warm until around 3 AM. I spent the rest of the night chilled. The next night, I slid my 15 degree bag inside of a 20 degree bag I brought along and wore a military ECWCS (synthetic fleece long johns) top and slept warm all night long. I've done the one bag one night and two bags one night enough times to be convinced that it makes a difference. What is the difference between a 30 degree bag and a 0 degree bag? The amount of insulation. By combining two bags, you are simply applying more insulation against the cold outside air. What you don't want to do is try to stuff the same size bags together or a bigger bag inside a smaller bag and compress the insulation. I'd suggest buying a larger bag to use on the outside. Concerning a full bladder. If you don't believe you will sleep colder with a full bladder, be my guest and tank up on liquids before bed during a cold weather campout one night and not the next and test your own results. I've done it both ways and can assure you that a full bladder will make you sleep colder. Consider that blood is moving thru small vessels, veins and arteries. Your bladder is basically a water balloon that your body has to try to keep warm and water does not retain heat well.

Barry, You should be able to go to "Edit your Profile" and change it. It does not appear to be working correctly though. I believe there should be a second page that you can continue to and it won't let me. Perhaps one of our moderators can check it out or speak to Scouter_Terry about it.

I've had to put a dog and a cat down within a few months of each other in the past and it was no fun. I've got two cats (Spanky and Lily) who are both around 5 years old. They could easily live another 10 years. But my buddy Jake is getting on in years. Jake is a 150 lbs. great dane/bull mastiff mix that I took in as a stray when he was about a year old. Jake is around 10 years old now and that is close to the life expectancy of a large breed dog. He does moan and groan when he has to get up and go outside for the night. It is part act and part real. As old as he is, he spins around and bounces like a puppy when he realizes he gets to go out front and thru the neighborhood on a walk. He is a big baby and wants to be a lap dog. Unlike Eamonn's Rory, Jake will sit at the door and whine loud enough for the neighbors to hear if there is even a hint of rain in the air. He does the same thing if he sees you thru the window going out in the front yard without him. He is one of the best behaved dogs I've ever had. I took him to a free obedience school when I first got him. I've never seen a dog so intelligent and eager to please. He has always looked to me as the alpha dog. Wy wife and son both get frustrated that he won't obey them like he does me. I could bore you with a million stories about his antics, but I won't. I know that someday (sooner than later) I'll have to put him down, and the thought almost brings me to tears everytime.

Summer camp two years ago used virtually the identical song. The camp director made announcments during lunch and dinner each day. It became a game of him finding different words to use besides the word announcement. It was a lot of fun for him and boy and adult campers alike. It is all in fun, I don't see a problem with it.

When I was being recruited for WB, my son was a Webelos. I almost didn't sign up as I was concerned that my responsibilities would change when we left the pack and joined a troop and I didn't see how I could design and work a ticket. I was assured it would not be a problem and it was not. I designed my ticket for my role in the pack and worked two of my items before we crossed over. My Troop Guide was very understanding and allowed me to modify or totally change the remaining three tickets. In fact, she let me change them on the fly. There were some major hidden issues at the troop we joined and the new boy patrol and parents found that they were not really welcome there. We decided to start a brand new troop. One of my new ticket items was to find a charter organization. Talk about a tough ticket. You'd be surprised how many churches will turn you down flat. But I got it done. Then I was selected as an ASM for our Jamboree contingent. The council basically left it to each boy to find his funding and was not interested in doing any kind of fundraising. Again, my TG allowed me to create a ticket of running a fundraiser for the 108 boys spread across 24 counties who were going to Jambo. So, those of you who are Cubbers and might be holding off until you cross over, don't let it stop you.

While I don't diasagree with EagleinKY, I've never quite understood the "privacy" of the ticket. The ticket should for the most part be geared towards your current position in scouting. In other words, don't design a ticket to build a derby track for a pack if you are the committee chairman for a troop. Some troop guides are very strict about tickets, others are not. I've seen ticket items such as, "attend 6 roundtables over the next year". What? That is something you should be doing anyway! I went thru WB when I was the Pack Committee chairman. One of my tickets was to present Emergency Prep to each den and work with the Den Leaders to track and record the requirements dome by the boys at each rank level to earn the award. Care should be taken to write a ticket that is attainable. Your troop guide will turn down a ticket where you want to do something like recruit 10 scouts in the month of February. What if you only recruit 8? Your ticket should be something you can control and not be at the mercy of others. Bottom line is, don't sweat it. Your troop guide at WB will explain the whole process to you and help you design your ticket.

OGE, The political parties are always looking for new members to join....they have to make themselves appealing to the public. They do a pretty lousy job too! I don't think the ACLU cares one way or another how people feel about them. They have a job to do and they do it regardless of whether people approve or not. Apples and oranges. Here is a blurb from the ACLU's website: "The ACLU is our nation's guardian of liberty. We work daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to every person in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States. Our job is to conserve America's original civic values: the Constitution and the Bill of Rights." I believe that they are committed and believe in what they do to the point that they don't care about being popular or what the pundits say.

Why can't I resist the urge to step into these frays? To a large degree, the American people are lazy and like to be spoon fed. I've always been something of a skeptic, I seldom take things at face value. People parrot what they hear on TV and the radio. What they hear is that the ACLU is an evil, perverse, un-American organization. What they don't do is go to the ACLU's website like Prairie Scouter did and look for themselves. I have. I found that they often take up cases that you never hear about. The same political pundits (O'Reilly, Hannity, Laura Ingraham, etc.) who complain that the liberal mainstream media never tell you about the good stuff happening in Iraq, are the same people who never tell you about the good the ACLU does. Just like talking about the good in Iraq.....it doesn't get ratings or sell advertising. The ACLU puts out information about the good they do, but those folks who are "looking out for you" seem to overlook it in favor of items they can whip into a frenzy. The ACLU is a non-profit organization who uses the money they have to pay expenses for lawyers and court cases. It is a waste of money for them to be putting out a multi-million dollar PR campaign to combat all of the pundits complaining about them. Look at the number of conservative radio talk show hosts. Hannity, Savage, Rush, O'Reilly, Ingraham, Tammy Bruce, Tony Snow, John Gibson, Bill Bennett, Medved, Boortz. etc. That is just a very very short list of radio personalities that spend 3 hours a day, five days a week putting out their "fair and balanced" agenda that partly targets the ACLU daily. Have you ever heard one of these hosts report a "good" case the ACLU has defended? No. Yet all they have to do is go to the various state ACLU websites to get the information. When you are being spoon fed what these guys want you to hear, be careful what you swallow. Get off your hiney, be a little skeptical and do a little research of your own. You might be surprised what you discover. Quit letting those guys "look out for you" and start looking out for yourself. Be fair and balanced.

E, I second the emotion. I have always enjoyed scouter.com and still do. However, the tone and attitude of some of our brothers around the campfire is rather confrontational at times and it disturbs me. The majority of this happens in the Politics and Issues forum. Given the purpose of that forum, I can understand it to a degree. Unfortunately, some posters let it spill over into threads about camping, gear, etc. I've been a member of many many other types of forums over the years and the ability to hide behind a monitor and keyboard tends to bring out the bully in many people. Being rude and put downs are the rule of the day on political forums in particular. I believe that many new folks joining the campfire have come from these other environments and just carry it over here thinking it is just another forum and it is how all forums operate. My hope is always that after a short time here they will realize it is different and the Oath and Law should apply here. If they are Scouters, it should apply everywhere they go. There are some folks who have really put me off lately. Since most of it is in the Politics forum, I just take it with a grain of salt, keep my mouth shut and try to move on. It wouldn't bother me at all if the moderators sent a private message to these folks. They need to be told that they have a voice and are welcome to post their thoughts, but to keep the attitude and tone in line with the Oath and Law. I don't want to see people censored or banned unless absolutely needed. But I wouldn't mind them getting a gentle nudge in private when they start crossing a line. Just my "valuable" two cents worth.

Loping Okie, Welcome to our campfire fellow Okie!!! Pull up a stump and have a cup of coffee.

Calico gave a lot of good info on sleeping pads. I am the pround owner of a Thermarest self inflating pad. Many people don't read the instructions and will store their pad compressed and rolled. Don't do this. It compresses the insulation and eventually it will not expand as it should and provide insulation. Same with a sleeping bag. Never store them compressed. The only time my sleeping pad and bag are rolled is the hour or two going to and returning home from camp. Once I get home, the bag is hung up in a closet and the pad is stored unrolled under the bed with the valve open. This will extend the insulating properties of both items.

Let me clarify my statement about eating cobbler right before bed. It was usually an hour to an hour and half before lights out.

Tenderfoot 3. On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together. Second Class 2d. Use the tools listed in requirement 2c to prepare tinder, kindling, and fuel for a cooking fire. 2e. Discuss when it is appropriate to use a cooking fire and a lightweight stove. Discuss the safety procedures for using both.. 2f. Demonstrate how to light a fire and a lightweight stove. 2g. On one campout, plan and cook over an open fire one hot breakfast or lunch for yourself, selecting foods from the food pyramid. Explain the importance of good nutrition. Tell how to transport, store, and prepare the foods you selected. First Class 4a. Help plan a patrol menu for one campout that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner and that requires cooking at least two meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from the food pyramid and meets nutritional needs. 4b. Using the menu planned in requirement 4a, make a list showing the cost and food amounts needed to feed three or more boys and secure the ingredients. 4c. Tell which pans, utensils, and other gear will be needed to cook and serve these meals. 4d. Explain the procedures to follow in the safe handling and storage of fresh meats, dairy products, eggs, vegetables, and other perishable food products. Tell how to properly dispose of camp garbage, cans, plastic containers, and other rubbish. 4e. On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup. By the time a boy has reached First Class, he should know how to plan a nutrishious menu that includes all food groups, the proper quantities for the number of people, how to prepare it, store it and clean up. Sure, mistakes happen and sometimes you get a little more or a little less than you should have. Something is wrong if you are ending up with large quantities of leftovers. Some things you can't help like having to buy a whole loaf of bread when only 4 boys in a patrol are going on an outing. They can either take what they need and freeze the rest or freeze leftovers when they get home. they can also plan a menu that requires bread for more than one meal. Condiments can be stroed between outings. This actually speaks some to having mixed age patrols. Experience counts. The younger boys can learn how it is done and work their way into the process instead of fumbling thru it, eating burnt dinners or bad menus. I remember where we hd a new boy patrol that had planned for beef stew. When it was time to cook, they couldn't find the meat and decided it had either not been bought or left behind. They ended up having vegetable stew. They found the meat underneath other items in the ice chest the next day. They also cooked everything backwards and put the potatoes in last which needed to cook the longest. They all have a story to tell now, but sure complained a lot during the campout. It was a valuable lesson about taking responsibility and being organized. Perhaps that wouldn't have happened with older boys involved.

Fscouter, A troop needs a certain amount of money to operate on. Part of that money comes from dues. Rather than collect them on a month to month basis and hope the bucks show up, you collect the total year all at once. Often the boy has enough money in his scout account from fundraisers to pay his annual dues. That is being thrifty. He has put away money for needs down the road. The patrols determine their menu for each month's campout. The boy is still responsible for paying his share of the expense for each monthly outing since it can not be determined a year in advance like the dues can be. The boy is still learning the things you want him to learn in budgeting, saving and being thrifty. I never said to have mom and dad write a check and have the boy learn nothing. The issue I was addressing was dues for troop operating capital and the boy can still learn by putting away money to pay once rahter than each month.

If collecting monthly dues is truely a problem and I could see where it is, propose to the committee to go to annual dues and collect them at recharter time. That is what our troop does and it solves tons of headaches. Why do something 12 times when you can do it once?

Just to clarify, I didn't mean sliding a warmer into a sock they are wearing. I meant to use spare socks as a cover for the warmers to avoid possible burns.

Lisa, I would assume that your boys have low temp bags since they live where the temps drop so low for multiple months. But, I've been around scouts long enough to know that new parents will skimp on price for items like sleeping bags. Many will get a rectangular bag from Wal-mart for $20 and think it will keep their little scout warm. My rule of thumb is to research equipment and buy the best I can afford. I don't care how great a piece of equiment claims to be, I just can't bring myself to pay $600 for a bag. Likewise, I won't waste blowing $20 for a piece of junk. I had my eye on a "sleep system" before Christmas. It is a Wiggy bag. Wiggy makes the bags for the Navy Seals. It is a bag inside a bag system. Individually, one bag is good to something like 30 or 35 and can be used in summer. The outter bag is good to 0 and can be used for fall and winter. Together, they are good to -40. The insulation is laminated to the bag which eliminates needle hols and helps to make the bag waterproof. It is quite an elite bag and runs around $450. I had equipment fever and really wanted this system. Heck, I'd never need aother bag again with this system. Then reason took over and I realized that my outings were never going to expose me to the environment that a Navy SEAL would be in. I'm going to be in a tent and totally waterproof bag just isn't that important to me. I have a 15 degree Sierra Designs mummy bag. I decided to buy a $40 Bass Pro Shop 20 degree mummy bag that I can slide my 15 degree bag into. I got the same effect as the $450 bag for $40. I say all of that to say that you can probably stick a decent bag inside another decent bag for a lot less than buying one super duper bag that costs a fortune. That way a boy can custom fit his needs. If he brings a -30 bag and the temps end up being 30, he'll burn up all night. If he has two bags, he can use one or both depending on the needs. We had a former SM who would not allow the scouts to use the warmers in sleeping bags. He felt that they got too hot and could burn exposed skin. My personal take is that they do not get that hot. I'd allow them to use them in their bags, but would want them to slide them into the bottom of a sock first just to be on the safe side.

Eagle69, Sleeping on a cot is like sleeping on an air mattress. It allows cold air to circulate underneath you. If all you have is your bag for insulation, your body weight will compress the insulation and decrease its effectiveness. I attend all of the troops campouts, but I really could do without cold weather camping. I enjoy not sweating like a horse like summer camping, but sleeping on the ground while bound up in a mummy bag is torture for me and my old joints. I get little sleep on these campouts. I have used a cot in cold weather and stayed cold.....but I've stayed cold using a pad on the ground too. This past month the temps overnight were around 32 and I used a 15 degree bag inside a 20 degree bag on top of a self inflating Thermarest and "slept" very toasty for once. The bag inside a bag left little wiggle room, so my joints gave me fits and kept me awake much of the night. I think a cot can work as long as you get enough insulation under you. I think it will take more than your standard sleep pad. Perhaps a foam rubber pad of about 3 inchs on top of the cot would be enough to keep the cold from reaching you and your body would heat up enough of it thru your bag to keep you warm. I've been interested in trying this myself, but a cot and a big foam rubber pad takes up a lot of space for traveling.

Feeding Kenk's furnace is something we always did. We saved dutch oven coobler until right before bed to give the boys some warm carbohydrates for their system to churn away on. Another inportant factor is to cut down on the drinks before bed. One, hopefully you won't have to crawl out of your bag in the middle of a cold night to relieve yourself. Two, your body uses up a lot of heat trying to keep a full bladder warm. A full bladder will make you sleep cold.

I know of some lightweight troops who seldom if ever do car "car camping". I am certainly not opposed to that approach. My only concern with that is that it does not appeal to everyone. Many Cubs cross over from Packs to do little to no camping. Slinging a pack on their back and marchingoff into the woods with hardly no comforts of home can be extremely intimidating. Eamonn's "base camp" approach works well and is what I'm most used to. Set up camp as usual and backpack or get wild from there. Doing it exclusivley either way is too limiting. Taking everything including the kitchen sink in a 50 car caravan is extreme. Sending a 10.5 year old, 4'8", 85 lbs boy out onto a rugged trail with a 40 lbs pack for his first camping trip extreme too. Moderation in all things. Pace yourself. Get a mix of equipment and do different things.

I sense trouble a "bruin".

After September 2006, I can sing, "I used to be a staffer"! Woohoo!!!