schleining

The last time I checked the Boy Scouts of America was a PRIVATE organization and therefore is allowed to discriminate in its membership.

Much like my Chartered Organization the Knights of Columbus. You MUST be a Practicing Catholic MAN over the age of 18 to join. The Knights also have the right to remove someones membership ie: Kick them out.

The BSA has the right to so the same. It has the right to decide who can and can not be members. It also has the right to take money from whomever it chooses. It is the the BSAs problem if the money comes from a Governmental agency. It is the administrators of said agency to determine weather or not the BSA gets the money.

And furthermore... it has done so since 1910, maintaining its tradition and values for 95 years.

I find it refreshing that an organization can maintain the program this long. That is testimony to the solid foundation that Scouting rests upon.

So get off that...

I have stated many times over... I could care less if you are gay or atheists... if you want to be a Boy Scout or a Scout leader.. live by the rules established by the organization or find another one that is more suitable to you.

Stop thinking that the BSA is like the Public School system and open to all.

My two cents on an extremely tired topic.

Jerry(This message has been edited by schleining)

I knew the Complete uniform topic would eventually spin off.

John-

I could not have said it better, so I won't..

Fuzzy Bear- That camp is run my the YMCA.. good thought though, it would give people that do not want to participate fully in the BSA Program a place to go.

Eamonn- You Da man! I love reading your straight forward posts. Makes me a better Scout leader.. thanks

Jerry

SM

Backpacker-

I base it my opinion. They rarely have a good word to say about any conservative issues (religion falling in that category)

CNN is completely biased..

I my non Scouting life I am a Soldier. CNN consistantly scews its stories about the Military and Government policy.

That is another debate for another time...and at the end of the day it will probably come down to my opinion and nothing you can site or measure.

IMO though CNN is worthless unless you lean to left side of the fence.

Jerry

For what it is worth...

The debate of who is growing and declining is not really and indicator of the stability of the Church...but I chanced upon this article that I thought was interesting none the less...

It is authored by James Akin, a Former Presbyterian that is now a leading Author on Catholic topics.

"If one were to prefer religion based on long-term, sustained growth, the Catholic Church would be the one to prefer. With almost 2,000 years of growth, the Church today is larger than it has ever been before, with over a billion members. More than half of all Christians are Catholics and more than one in six human beings is a Catholic. And the number is rising.

For example, in 1997the most recent year for which global statistics are currently availablethe Church had an overall increase in membership of over ten million, only a little more than half of which can be accounted for by baptisms under the age of seven, and an increase in spite of the loss of members due to death and defection.

And the Catholic Church is growing not only in the world at large but in America in particular. In 1998the most recent year for which national statistics are availablethe U.S. Catholic population had an overall increase of 455,000, including 162,000 conversions to the Catholic Church (i.e., cases of people joining other than baptisms of those below the age of seven).

It may be important to point this out to those who commit the "fastest-growing" fallacy and wish to represent the Catholic Church as stagnant or declining in membership. It is especially valuable to know the number of adult conversions per year, since an anti-Catholic might attempt to dismiss American Church growth as due only to infant baptisms or immigration.

Needless to say, the Catholic growth rates in both the United States and the world dwarf what any other church is doing. Nobody else in the world gets an net increase of ten million people in a year, and nobody else in America gets a net increase of half a million people in a year. And remember that these represent net increases in membershipafter deaths and defections have been factored inso the actual number of converts is significantly higher."

You can read the whole article at:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005chap.asp

I submit this only to say that Growth is somewhat immaterial in the debate of the stabilty of the Church. And that everyone...news agencies, Authors and of course those of us that post to this forum...have an opinion.

YIS

Jerry

a couple of you took my references...

I think the first thing one needs to do is stop listening to CNN and Newsweek... CNN is openly anti Catholic or religion for that matter.

Praire- like you said the Church will not collaps over any of this.

I disagree that JPII squeltched discussion, I think we will have to agree to disagree on that, because that debate could go on for ever.

Women Priests- don't think that is going to happen.

Married Priests- not any time soon.

Personal opinon is that things should stay the way they are. I want my Priest focusing on one thing and that is the Church and leading the Parish. I do not want him distracted by Soccer practice and School plays.

In our Parish alone we have seen a huge influx of new and returning Catholics... and keep in mind I live in the MOST UNCHURCHED State in America.

Our Parish grew from 1500 families to 1700 families in 2 years.

This years RCIA class had 50 people in it. That has been unheard of.

If nothing else I think that people are looking for a spritual home and finding it again in the Catholic Church.

Jerry

Without getting into to much debate...

It is amazing where the stats come from. Some say people are leaving in droves... while others report the fastest growing Church is also the Catholic Church. Did you know that the Church that recieved the most Converts over the last 5 years is the Catholic Church.. Thats right converts...people coming into the Church from elsewhere... But you know that has nothing to do with the Pope..past or present.

Vatican II- before comments are made about JPII disregarding Vatican II you had better know what Vatican II said. There are so many people that truely do not know what is in the content of the Second Vatican Council.

The Laity was NOT the biggest part of the council and the Catholic Church did not change ANY teachings in the Council.

The Mass was made more "Accessable" and the Priest no longer said Mass in Latin...

It did push the Church into a tail spin allowing everything and anything to be right. It did move the Church into the relativism state.

The Bed rock of the church has remained the same and should never change. If that is like the Dark ages so be it. The Faith is strong and the Gates of hell will never destroy it.

Benedict XVI will be a great leader for the church...maintaing strong conservative views on Church doctrine, teaching, and application of the faith.

The Church will continue to be strong. John Paul II will certainly be missed and future Pontifs call learn alot from his Saintly life. Which we all can.

Pray for the Repose of the soul of our dearly departed Pontif John Paul II.

Jerry

Welcome Ken...

Cobbler is always cooking at this forum.

Once a Scout always a Scout...

Funny thing how we come full circle.

Thank goodness for a little flyer my son brought home inviting him to an Open house 5 and half years ago. He signed up and so did I... it felt great to put a Scout uniform on again.

So welcome back!

Jerry

SM

Love my LED flashlight and headlamp... won't own anything else.

They seem to go forever on batteries and provide great light.

That and they are lighter and more compact.

2 thumbs up!

Jerry

OK-

I found in the SM Handbook where it does in fact state that "A boy is not required to have a uniform in order to be a Boy Scout."

Page 156 second Paragraph..

Sorry I did not look hard enough.

Now having said that...

I still think the Uniform is an important part of Scouting and as the SM Handbook says;

" Troop leaders should set the example by wearing the uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and wear a uniform."

So on one hand it is not required, but the BSA is suggesting that we as leaders encourage the owning and wearing of a uniform.

"Wearing the uniform promotes comradeship, loyalty to one's patrol and Troop, and public recognition of membership in the Boy Scouts of America."

Jerry

Ed-

Omission does not mean not required. I would think that, and based on all of the literature that the Scouter and Scout is in contact with (Boy Scout Handbook, SM Handbook etc), there is more emphasis placed on wearing the uniform and properly than there is on not wearing the uniform. In fact there is nothing in the literature that says NOT to wear the uniform.

If the BSA and WSO think so much of the uniform and its importance that is is actually a METHOD of the movement than it must be important and therefore something that should be incorporated into the PROGRAM, which others have stated (and I agree) is what is important.

To omit the uniform is taking a part out of the whole.

Jerry

Ok-

I have to ask, because I can not find it anywhere...

Pages 12 and 13 of the Scouthandbook and page 9 of the Scoutmaster Handbook both speak of the Uniform. And no where in those books does it say the Uniform is NOT required, so I went to the 2005 Boy Scout Requirements book... NO where there does it say the Uniform is not Required.

So where does it say that the Uniform is NOT required?

The BSA website states:

"Uniform

The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished."

Still nothing about it being an option or not a requirement.

As long as I was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and now leader I have been under the assumption the the Uniform was required and a part of Scouting.

"..putting on the uniform does not make a fellow a Scout, but putting on the uniform is a sign to the world that one has taken the Scout obligations and folks expect Scout-like acts from one wearing it."

Jerry(This message has been edited by schleining)

"Don't make this Scout stuff too hard."

AMEN!

This stuff is all fun. I think that sometimes we do get wrapped around the broom handle over minor stuff.

Jerry

Two Part question:

1. Do your units try to earn the National Historic Trails Award?

if so what Trail did you do? Any great Stories?

2. This is the Bicentennial of the Corps of Discovery, Lewis and Clark expedition. The Cascade Pacific Council is doing an AWESOME journal program with awards throughout this year. Are any other Councils doing something like this?

As luck would have it we have been working for 8 months on the Historic Trails award. We chose the Lewis and Clark Trail, as we live on it and the Bicentennial celebration offered many activities.

We will camp our last camp for the award this weekend at Beacon Rock in Washington.

Jerry

SM

Bobwhite-

I could not agree with you more.

Jerry

I think your troop has hit it's max capacity for what it can and can not do.

I do not understand why you need 1 Adult per Scout on a Campout, especially when you know space is limited.

Our Troop is 1 year old this month. We started with 5 boys and now we have 11. We have 6 2nd year Webelos that will cross over to the Troop in October. So we will be up to 17. Right now I have 3 Assistant Scoutmasters to handle 11 Scouts. More than enough Adult leaders, When we get the new 6 we will Add an Assistant Scoutmaster. We have camped 12 times and had just about as many other outings.

I invite all the parents to go on any activity, event, campout. Most choose not to go and that is fine with me. Unless they know and understand the program, most of the time they are in the way.

I think that a Troop needs to recognize it carrying capacity. When I was a Scout (moons ago) I was in a Troop that had about 75 Scouts in it. We had plenty of Adult leaders, but after awhile it got to big and less fun. It seemed like they (leaders) were running a Scout Factory. Bring them in... get the Eagle... let them go...

Summer Camp.. we would go as a Troop. The other troops hated us becasue we took to long in the Dining hall.

Anyway- maybe a split of the Troop would be a good idea if you all can't handle the capacity. (Just a thought) It would be alot more hands on for your Scouts and you would not have the size/space issues.

Jerry

We have a great CO.. no complaints. They have place additions requirements on us, for example, they require us to be screened by the Archdiocese (background Check), they require trip permits any time a Scout is riding in a car with an adult other than his parent.

When it came to uniforms, the CO wants us to wear full uniforms, however they have not made an issue of it. They offered to buy us some Scout stuff. I met with them and they asked my what they can buy for the Troop. They suggested pants for all the boys as they all have shirts etc. They gave me a dollar number and so I asked them to buy tents. We would get a lot of use out of tents and as a brand new Troop, we did not have any.

They purchased 10 tents for us.

They are going to offer once a year a cash donation to the Troop. Maybe next year we will look at pants.

Jerry

Untucked shirts.... my number 1 pet peeve...

I make that correction all the time, wheather it is BSA policy or not, it is just good order.

Presenting a neat appearance in a Scout Shirt that is untucked in impossible.

SAYS ME!

Jerry

Nothing tastes better than food cooked in Dutch ovens...

Please share some of your favorite reciepes.

I'll start.

Huckleberry Cobbler-

1 box of yellow cake mix

1 egg

2 cans of huckleberries (or 4 cups of fresh Huckelberries)

about 2 cups of milk or one of those real small milk cartons.

preheat oven, getting it warm.

mix in a bowl the cake mix, egg and milk.

pour Huckleberries in bottom of Dutch oven.

Pour cake mixture over berries

Put on coals... 8 on bottom, 12 on top

Cook for about an hour, check at 45 min. If the top looks real good (and you will know) than remove 4 briquettes from bottom and cook till top is getting solid.

this step is up to you, some people like their cobbler alittle more crisp, I like mine moist.

Jerry

SOAP and Steel Wool...ONLY WHEN RESEASONING...

I clean mine by boiling water in them and then scrubbing them with a nylon brush... dump out water... oil and repeat once.

Then use Crisco to oil it and store.

I have never had a problem with my ovens. And I cook EVERY Saturday on my dutch ovens.

Tonight its Pork ribs, Sparkeling potatos, Corn, and Apple crisp cheese cake. mmmm mmmmm

Got the coals on right now.

Get yourself an "OVGLOVE" the greatest invention for Dutch oven chefs.

And a good cooking table...saves the back.

Jerry

Rules. In our Troop we have 12 of them...

I am sure you can all guess what they are, Starts with Trustworthy...

Those 12 pretty much touch everything that we could need.

We have a set of By Laws also, in them we discuss the cleaning of our meeting place for the Chartered Org., we cover dues for the year, we cover the additional items our CO has in place for the Troop, which include reporting, permits, insurance etc.

But no rules.

What I have learned in my short time as a Scout leader is that the more rules you throw at them, the less they remember.

They all need to know the Scout Law, simple enough.

Jerry

and in the late 70's early 80's the BSA supply division in cooperation with Boy's Life came out with a special "Pedro Edition" of the Wool Jac-Shirt. It was sent to Leaders only and was Red and Green Plaid.

I got my hands on one.. my Dad was a Scouter back in the old days...70's and 80's and he recieved one of these jac's.

He never wore it and gave it to me (in plastic) when I became a Scouter.

It is quite the conversation piece..

Amen.

I am pleased to see the secessor of Peter via John Paul II is a stead fast conservative within the Church. Now more than ever we need that in the leadership. To continue the fantastic work of most Holiness John Paul II.

As a loyal Son of the Mother Church I pray for her and our new Pontif.

Jerry

I still have all my skill awards from when I was a Scout.

I really would like to see them brought back, I think it was a good program, and even though we use a spiral learning technique now, I believe there is still room for the Skill award.

For me its not so much the recognition factor or ratio, but younger Scouts do get used to being recognized alot in Cub Scouting and it does create a melt down in some cases when they get up to the Troop.

I think you can never get enough First Aid training, and the rest all enhanced the program also. Citizenship, Swimming, Camping, hiking, cooking, Family living, and Environment..to name a few... looking at all these they prepare the Scout for the merit badges.

Camping for example... Takes 20 nights of Camping plus all the other requirements... the Camping skill award did not and reenforced all the camping skills.

Rambleing.... so I'll close with my vote to bring them back.

Jerry

Indiana Jones as a Boy Scout at the beginning of Last Crusade...

My Boys always ask if he got his Eagle? He is wearing Life....

We always get a chuckle because the G2SS would never let you ride a horse like that. hahahaha

Got it..Thanks