schleining

Glad to see that this thread has turned into the Bob White v. Prairie Scouter debate.

Thanks for the entertainment guys...

For the rest of you, thanks, I have learned alot about LDS units.

Jerry

Thought I'd weigh in on this interesting topic.

I am Catholic and Scoutmaster a Troop chartered to a Catholic Organization, the Knights of Columbus. (to give a point of reference).

When I was a Cubmaster we had a bunch (4 or 5) boys that wanted to be Cub Scouts that went to the School my kids went to.

I invited them to our recruit night.

The parents said they could not be Cub Scouts until they were 8. No knowing they were LDS I told them they could join at 7 and that was the BSA program.

They joined and went thru their Tiger Cub year with our Pack. They were awesome participants. Then at the end of the School year they transferred into one of the LDS Packs. Within 6 months they quit Scouts all together siting they were bored stiff.

I went to Scoutmaster trianing with two LDS men. They are fantastic guys, Both were "Called" to be leaders, one had never camped in his life and the other was an Eagle Scout. I ran into one of them at Roundtable last month, he is still jung ho about it, the other I have not seen since training. The jung ho one is the guy that had never camped before. Good guy and dedicated leader.

OK- I have no beef with the LDS units at all...except I feel bad at Camporees or District camping events when they pack up their stuff and drive off on Saturday night. I completely understand why they do it, but the boys in my Troop always wonder why. They get a short explaination and we let it go.

Different is not a bad thing. I can see the frustration of other Scouters and to some extent those leaders in LDS units that I know.

I am thankful that the LDS church allows the program to exist, its good for the boys regardless of the constraints...restraints...whatever.

Happy Camping

Jerry

FScouter-

I agree...

I suppose I should clarify... The "Requirement" is not written anywhere. It is just something we do. I am sure as the boys learn and get better we will lighten up.

I have faith in these young men, but as SR540Beaver stated, we have immature 11 year olds that are growing getting mature right under our eyes. We started our Troop in June of last year also.

These youngsters like to horse play and find a short cut whenever possible. But we see them see them getting better all the time.

Last year we would joke amoung the adults that we had a group of Webelos disguised as Boy Scouts. Today we have a better Troop and better Scouts, but cooking has been a challenge, and that is why we did what we did. And I am happy to report that it works.

I like to think of myself as a Scouting purist.. but at the end of the day you have to teach the boys how they learn. If it is by letting them go, fail, starve, and poof the light goes on...good, it worked.

Forcing good inspectable menus worked for us.

Jerry

Bobwhite,

I am not the one that only allows them to cook the same meal once.

They can eat the same thing every campout for all I care, it just has to meet the criteria mentioned before.

That was jr56 that only allows a meal to be cooked once.

Our Patrols only have 4 to 5 Scouts in them. They get plenty of practice. Figure we eat 5 meals every campout and they mix up the cooks on the roster...plenty of cook time.

And yes, I said 5 meals... We used to have the boys eat before they came to the meeting place on Friday nights, but by the time we got to the Campsite, most of them complained about being hungry. So we started adding a Friday night meal, a small meal..hamburgers/hot dogs, but they need to have something more than a cracker barrel on friday night.

Just about all of out camp outs are 2 nights (Fri-Sun).

Jerry

OldGreyEagle...

It is a rule impossed by the Adults.

AND HERE IS WHY before I get jumped on...

Our oldest most experienced Scout is a Second Class Scout, 12 years old and never camped unitl he joined Boy Scouts. We have 5 Scouts with 19 nights of Camping experience, most of which did very little camping before Scouting,or at least camping that required them to do something other than play.

The balance of the Troop are 11 years old and most are finishing up their Tenderfoot.

The Scouts plan the meals, do the shopping, and do the cooking, the ASMs and myself approve the menu. They get all the teaching/learning points and get to cook whatever they want, as long it falls in the guidelines of a good meal.

We lead by example too... The adults eat EXTREMELY Well during campouts, highlighted by many great Dutch oven meals.

The Scouts did ask the questions, but typically opted out for something easy and quick.

After seeing one Patrol eat Muffins for breakfast, PB&J for lunch and Ramen for dinner... I had enough.

We are adults and are supposed to teach them....letting them eat garbage is not a learning method, so we impossed this requirement.

There have been no objections from the boys, because they do like to eat good, a little more preparation and clean up, but they get to eat like kings.

I see other Troops out there that take the easy way out, and the bottom line is they do not learn and they do not eat well.

Jerry

(edited for spelling)(This message has been edited by schleining)

We have instituted a requirement in our Troop that the Boys can not take the easy way out when cooking in camp....

Cold meals, Ramen and Pop tarts are not allowed unless they are part of a full meal...

Cereal is only allowed on Sundays for easy clean up.

This is to teach the Scouts to plan good hearty meals, work as Patrol, and develop good cooking skills. (which include cleaning up)

Since we have started this, it is amazing what results we are getting.

It was rocky at first, but now we have fantastic one pot meals... lots of Dutch oven cooking, and the boys are starting to enjoy their time under the dining fly.

What do you all typically do? And have you put in requirements like this in your Troops?

We have instituted a requirement in our Troop that the Boys can not take the easy way out when cooking in camp....

Cold meals, Ramen and Pop tarts are not allowed unless they are part of a full meal...

Cereal is only allowed on Sundays for easy clean up.

This is to teach the Scouts to plan good hearty meals, work as Patrol, and develop good cooking skills. (which include cleaning up)

Since we have started this, it is amazing what results we are getting.

It was rocky at first, but now we have fantastic one pot meals... lots of Dutch oven cooking, and the boys are starting to enjoy their time under the dining fly.

What do you all typically do? And have you put in requirements like this in your Troops?

First we do everything as Patrols.

The SPL and PLs get instructions from the SM and ASMs and then are given the opportunity to execute the plan.

The Patrols do all their planning as a Patrol, meals, who is going to buy the food etc.

Since our Scouts are still young we have an ASM for eac patrol that coaches them, but allows them enough slack that they can make mistakes and then the ASM or myself (SM) step in for the teaching /learning moment.

The Scouts like the Patrol method. Our Patrols are 5 to 6 boys max. That is a small enough unit to still handle big tasks, while being a good size for a young scout to control.

Jerry

what is required is that a Scout live the Scout Law, and that he takes the promise that he makes in the Scout Oath seriously.

IF he and his leaders do those two things, than the AIMs and the METHODS to achieve those AIMs will be met.

What is required is that the Program that the BSA outlines is follwed and the Spirit of that program be met in its Leadership and Scouts.

Ed- it is my belief that you are like one of those Scouts that always has his stick in the fire...even though the Scoutmaster tells you over and over not to do it. Sooner or later someone gets burned or poked with the hot stick and then the night is ruined. Those of us that like to sit at the Campfire and chat, sing a few songs, tell some stories and enjoy the quiet miss out when there is a stick in the fire. The fire is much more pleasent when the Scoutmaster is not telling scouts to behave.

The point is the PROGRAM of Scouting. It is a good one and time tested... It does not need another stick in the fire.

Jerry

Scoutmaster who wants the sticks out of the fire!

Not Dorky or uncomfortable...

I have two pair of the pants... one the old style, looks more like slacks, the other the new style (available at the Scout shop).

I also have a pair of the shorts (new style).

I find them comfortable and not at all unappropriate for camping.

I usually wear a pair of wool pants (same color as the Scout pants) when we are camping, but I do wear the shorts and other pants to.

BDU's are discouraged by the BSA.

IMO- I think BDUs make the Scout uniform look very shabby. I have seen some other Troops wear them at Camporee etc. To me it does not present a neat appearance and should not be apart of Scouting.

On the other hand if you can still find a good servicable pair of OG 109 pants (the old Jungle Fatigue pants) that are solid green, I could probably let that go on campouts only.

In my Troop BDUs are not allowed. No Army clothing is allowed for wear during Troop functions. So basically never.

We are Boy Scouts not wanna be's.

**disclaimer- I spent 20 years and 9 months in BDUs/DCUs so I have a love for that uniform and seeing it on Scouts is not appropriate.

Jerry

SM

A good way to start is by adapting your yell from a well known song.

I have heard a bunch.. We heard one Troop that adapted their yell from the Addams family theme.

Our Troop yell is started from a tune the boys knew and grew..

We just added the words..

It goes:

ALL-

We're the Scouts from 664,

and this is our Troop yell.

We're looking for adventure,

We're on the Eagle Trail, HEY!

SPL- WHO ROCKS THAT THUNDERBIRD?

All- 6-6-4!!

The Patrols have their own yells also, but we use the Troop yell whenever we are together as a Troop.

Jerry

SM(This message has been edited by schleining)

This is a great topic...

Refreshing from the right or wrong debate. But what it has done is got me thinking about what EXACTLY we (I) and doing to promote the AIMS of Boy Scouting.

As of last week the answer would have been, they are falling into place. You and I know nothing ever "falls into place."

So here is what I have done in the last week to get the AIMS and their methods at the forefront of the Troop.

1st- I have been learning all I can about the methods. Reading them and learning from experienced Scouters.

2nd- I have actually put them on our Planning matrix. And identifing activities that promote the AIMs. This has caused us to be focused in that direction in our planning. By doing this now, it will become part of planning process in August when we plan the next year.

3rd- I have "trained" the Assistant Scoutmasters and other leaders that work directly with the Scouts on the Aims and Methods. Even though they have been trained and got the patch... I am not sure they really understood the concepts.

So that has been a huge undertaking. Not even close to complete, or even visable at this point. But given time and energy it will come. I am sure that the Troop will be better for it. I believe also that once in place, this is a never ending process and so it must be kept fresh and new ideas introduced.

As someone stated before, it needs to be tailored to the individual Scouts also, but the principle and methods are sound.

Jerry(This message has been edited by schleining)

As a Scout-

Cub Scout/Webelos-

Goshen, VA (1976)

Boy Scout-

Transatlantic Council -Camp Freedom, Germany (1978-79)

Calcasieu Area Council -Camp Edgewood, LA (1980-83)

Scouter-

Cascade Pacific Council- Cub World, Scouters Mountain, OR (2001-02, 04)

Camp Kalsu, Iraq (non Scouting camp..but an adventure none the less) (2003-2004)

Cascade Pacific Council- Camp Clark (2004)with the Webelos den.

Cascade Pacific Council- Camp Meriwether (2004)with my Troop.

This year will be Cascade Pacific Council- Camp Cooper.

Jerry

I tend to agree that you might want to go down to 1 patrol.

We started a new Troop last year also. We had 5 boys.

We had 1 Patrol, we elected a PL for a 6 month term. At the end of the 6 month Term we held JLT and had all 5 boys attend.

The JLT was held in January, knowing we would pick up more Scouts at Cross over in February.

We picked up 6 new Scouts in February and split the patrol up and made two patrols and then elected a SPL.

The Patrols are 5 Scouts each and the SPL takes turns preparing, cooking and camping with each Patrol on each Campout.

I have 3 assistant Scoutmasters plus committee members that often camp.

We always establish a Patrol campsite and demonstrate the Patrol method. Working as a team, cooking, cleaning, and maintaining our Campsite so the boys can see what "right looks like".

Anyway it seems to work for us.

I think the Adult leaders need to be constantly reminded, even if everything is going great, that we are here to teach, coach, and train these youngsters. Using the methods outlined in the Program to achieve the Aims. The boys respond well to visual stimulation and seeing what they should look like is a great teaching tool.

Good luck to you, sounds like you got things going in the right direction.

Jerry

SM

Thanks Prairie for taking it to the extreme...

Its the 10 Commandments... ten real good rules to live by.

The folks you mentioned might want to read them too...

Just because people breal the law, does not mean the law is flawed...

Gimmie a Break here... we can play the extreme game all day long.

Thanks for playing though.

Jerry

Thou shalt not kill....

There's one that's offensive.

Thou shalt not steal....

Again... I am shocked!

Honor your Father and Mother...

That's just plain radical... I am offended!

If I am in a Court room as a Defendant and I see the Ten Commandments...

I geuss I should have read them before getting into the Court room!

Religion and Morality go hand in hand... but you can be morale without religion. So voting for against Gay marriage is not a Catholic thing, as we saw, it is an American thing!

Jerry

counting to ten....deep breath...exhale...

Prairie....

I am beginning to think you and I will never agree on anything...

But ok... I can live with that...

No I was not talking about physical or legal attacks... but everyone else seemed to understand the intent....moving on.

No I was not talking about Parties winning the election either. I was refering to the overwhelming majority of people in the United States that agreed on Faith based issues.. for example Gay marriage and life issues. Democrates and Republicans can agree on God. God is not Right or Left he IS.

Anyway- The ACLU does defend everyone and hides behind the Constitution when it is convienent for them. They deem God unconstitutional... I think they need to read our founding Fathers... they need to look at the documents that established this country and they will Find God had and has an important role in our Nation.

I don't know how many of you have been in the Jefferson memorial in Washington DC... it is obvious the ACLU has never been, because if they had it would shut down in a New York minute.

Jefferson was VERY outspoken about his belief in God and that a Nation with out God would fail.

My personal opnion is that everytime the ACLU gets involved the Nation gets weaker.

The Three Aims of Boy Scouts is Character Development...Forming Good citizens... and personal fitness (which includes spiritual, physical, and emotional fitness). I would like you all to look up those definitions and tell me that without a good moral structure and values which include reverence to a higher power we can achieve the Aims. There is a debate about the methods in another part of this forum... but God is centeral to our Nation and the ACLU would tear that from our history and make it a non factor in the life of our Republic. I for one will not sit back and let it happen.

I VOTE

Jerry

Time to find a new Webelos Den leader.

Unfortunately you are in fact in a bad spot. The Webelos Den leader is the person that needs to sign off.

To expand on what Scoutnut said.. this is the transition year and a half.

Once the Scout gets up to a Troop, he will do alot of stuff at home, but will have to demonstrate to his leader (Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmaster, MB Counselor etc..)

The group sign off days will be over and this is the BSAs way of transitioning and getting the Scout used to not having Mom and Dad as Akela.

Jerry

I love a spirited debate like the next guy BUT....

My point is that we need to remember who we represent in this forum...

Weather or not you agree, because we come in this very PUBLIC World Wide gathering area...and by the fact that we all claim to be Scouters... and we are discussing Scouting matter... we are de facto spokesmen and women of Scouting.

You (as in everyone)can opt out of that label if you wish, but the simple truth is that this forum is a written documentation of a discussion that is representative of Scouting and its leaders.

Just as we are not allowed to wear our uniforms to politcial rallies and we should never get on TV and talk about policy, Council or National, we need to be carefull how the outsider looking in to the Scouting movement views us as its leaders.

Yes the debate gets heated and folks get hot under the collar, That is exactly when we need to show the World via the Web that we can have a debate and still manage to live the Scout Law.

Jerry

We is We the People.... The People that decide and as of the last election continue to decide that God is important in America.

Anyway-

I find it interesting that the ACLU loves attacking the BSA for "UNCONSTITUTIONAL" acts....

The interesting part is that the Congress of the United States is the Charter Organization of the Boy Scouts of America... we better not tell anyone from the ACLU... they will make us change the Charter to Wal Mart or something.

Jerry

Prairie-

Show me where in our Constitution has a seperation of Church and State..

Last time I checked it only said that the State would not establish a Religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

That does not SEPERATE God from our Nation, it allows us to KEEP God in our Nation as we see God and not how the KING OF ENGLAND Sees God.

Jerry

Not a fan of the ACLU.

If anyone has a Red/White Community Strip of GRESHAM, with an OR strip I would love to buy or trade.

Thanks

Jerry

The methods are there for us to run a great program.

I whole heartedly agree with Eamonn's post. Suggest a reread of it to all.

Anyway- I think that while the BSA may not require something, somethings are best to do. The Methods are time tested and true ways of achieving the Aims of the Scouting movement.

You know- there is no where that says a Scoutmaster can require his Scouts to live the Scout Law daily... I do becasue at every meeting we say the Scout Oath. In the oath the Scouts make a promise to live the Scout Law. So I hold them to there promise. This supports character building. And when I say I hold them to it... I do. I see the Scouts around town, at School, at Church etc. When I see them soing something that is contrary to the Scout Law.. I stop them and suggest they remember their promise.

I am sure that this is not a requirement, but it is a good thing to do to support the AIMs of Scouting.

We are leaders of Scouting in America, how can we do our best if we do not buy in and support the AIMS and METHODS that are outlined for us by the BSA.

So far as picking and choosing... NO... use what we have. Add to it if that is needed, but do not take away from time tested methods.

FINALLY-

The tone of this and other discussions in this forum have really taken a nose dive. As I close this post allow me to remind everyone that a Scout (and his leaders) are Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Like those twelve points of the Law which take no more weight than the next, our Methods too stand alone and above all else work.

Jerry

Our Council sends the requirement book out every year....

They send it directly to the Scout Shop were WE can buy it every year. It is always on the same spot on the shelf and typically the same price as last year.

Tounge and cheek...

I wish there was a MB counselor bulletin that would come out periodically. Just a letter or email that would say in bullet form what changes are happening or are about to happen.

All registered leaders are on the National mailing list we all get Scouting Mag., they could use it to get the word out.

Jerry

Merlyn- you quoted a typo...

It should have read "It is NOT the the BSAs problem if the money comes from a Governmental agency. It is the administrators of said agency to determine weather or not the BSA gets the money."

Dang... a typo and I add to his agrument. Shame on me... I'll have to do a better job proofing my posts.

NO the HUD should have known better than to get into a contract with something it could not support. The BSA used to take funding from many agencies that it can no longer accept funds from... not because of the Boy Scouts positions, but because someone decided that the Boy Scouts is not worth funding due to it's acceptance of morality, values, faith and Duty to ones God, Country, and Self. God help us cause we are trying to raise good young men...

God is in our Constitution, our Declaration of Independance, and the Bill of Rights did not remove God from our Country.

I hope I checked this one better... Don't want to give Merlyn any due..

(edited part)

And I never said that Merlyn said that the BSA is like public school and open to all...

I am the one that used that as an example of the attitude of those oppossed to the PRIVATE organization called the Boy Scouts of America.

I am also NOT placing blame on the HUD. But come on... they should know better also. What it sounds like to me is that someone at the HUD found something good in what the Scouts were doing and allowed it to happen.

Then the ACLU got its arms around it and the whole thing went south.

YEAH>>>>>THATS AN OPINION!

Jerry

(This message has been edited by schleining)(This message has been edited by schleining) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)