RangerT

Eamonn I hear you brother and that is the exact reason I went with an outdoor crew instead of a ship. I love the water and sailing, but a ship is so expensive to maintain. When we go sailing we rent some nice sailboats for a day or two. Another ship in my council went under last month, similiar reasons to yours and they finally lost their CO. I wish you all the success possible, but if the teens don't do the work they don't deserve the benefits. Don't beat yourself up, it's not your fault. If my kids drop out of a fundraiser then the activity is cancelled. A ship is run by the youth , they nee

Kudu First of all you have misrepresented what I said, I never wanted to "dumb down" any program. I would rather offer alternatives like the Venturing program does. There is the Ranger option for those with an outdoors interest, the Quest award for sports focused individuals, etc, etc. So my idea is to diversify not diminish the program,which will make it stronger and attract more youth, in my opinion. I am not here to debate you just to offer some alternative views on this subject. You don't have to agree with my views and I don't have to agree with yours. I have over 25 years worki

Kudu You validate what I said in your last statement "There will always be a few of us volunteers who will promote an independent outdoor skills program." Yes then the scouting alternative program you promote will be a small cult with a small number of kids. Again, the statistics are proving more and more each year that the exsisting program is not attracting anywhere near the numbers it once did. In another thread several scoutmasters said that less than 10% of the boys in their troops were actively involved, and I have heard the same from the leaders in my council. So you can start anoth

I think that the real issue here is that most of us want to preserve the scouting heritage of our own youth or that of our father, and the reality is that most teens today are not interested in that heritage. In this fast pace technologically advancing world our kids have been absorbed into a sort of virtual reality. The principals and morals of scouting are still relevant today but the outdoorsy, hiking and gung ho camping trips and skills are not relevant to pre teens and teens, in other words most just aren't interested anymore. So what do we do? We have to meet the kids where they are at n

As others have stated you CAN NOT be dual registered as a cub and a boy scout, period, BSA policies will not allow it nor are SM's allowed to let a boy scout earn the AOL once he is registered in the troop. Once he joins a troop he is no longer eligible for any cub scout advancement. Thats the way it is! My two sons, one got the AOL the other did not and at 11 yrs both crossed over to a troop and both are advancing well.

Eamonn, emb21 is correct there is no plan by National to merge Sea Scouts with Venturing or their manuals either, which are way over priced compared to the sea scout manual. A friend of mine at National told me that a lot of ideas get discussed at National but there are no such plans on the near horizon. By the way Eamonn I kinda resent your comment that "crew advisors hand out advancement like candy",my crew works pretty damn hard on their advancement. Maybe if most of your council's crews were not at detention centers you would see how real venturing is done with well trained leaders,

Eamonn I concur with you 100%, especially after sitting through some extremely poor training sessions in the past years. Aside from specialcourses like Wood Badge and Kodiak, etc. I think all the rest of the basic leader courses could easily be done on line. This would result in all scout leaders getting the exact same information and National could control the quality of the presenters and the content being presented. An additional benefit might be a reduction in the number of arguments and misinformation given out in this forum, just a thought, lol.

"Yeh do what you can, eh, with the cards you are dealt." Beavah, Amen to that brother, I couldn't agree with you more. I guess we have seen the system from two different vantage points, in your case the system worked and in mine it didn't. On your replacement SE I bet you had a narrow list supplied by National to choose from, eh. Anyhow I love scouting, especially if I stay away all the politics I can on the council and National levels all it does is raise my blood pressure, and who needs that. Beav I do agree with you more than I disagree, and I think we both agree some changes nee

First of all if the poop hits the fan in a council for illegal activities the buck stops at National, NOT THE COUNCIL or its exec committee. No matter what prose you want to write Beavah National does have the final say on all BSA policies and standards done on the council level, as well as the ultimate responsibility when things goes awry, so you can bet they maintain the reins of control in the final phase. By the way the SE DOES have the right to remove a member of the board if he feels that member does not have the best interests of the council in mind, it happens all the time, especially

After following this thread I see it becoming increasingly hostile and counter productive. nldscout, your last post was extremely unscoutlike as well as essentially incorrect. All scouting professionals work for the BSA not the volunteers, it is their job to manage and direct programs in their assigned districts and to raise money and units from the businesses, service organizations, and units in their area. Scout Executives manage a council and report directly to National, where most of them want to end up someday. Council executive committees have limited authority and can be replaced by the

I still feel that before we cast the boy to the wolves we as scoutleaders have an obligation to talk to the boy and his parents to at least see if this is a problem that can be dealt with. In the meantime you can suspend from outings and allow him to meetings only if a parent accompanies him. If it is later determined that there is no hope for the boy then suspend him. I had a young man in my crew recently who on a camping trip pulled a knife on another teen, it later turned out that this other teen had been making comments about killing all the Iraqis since "they are all scum" and had c

If you use threats to get a boy to behave then you have already lost the battle. This boy may have some personal issues going on causing him to behave this way. Get to know your boys so they will feel trust to bring their issues to you, sometime behavior problems are a cry for help. Now you will never know since the boy has left the troop. Once the rank is earned it belongs to the youth not the scoutmaster.(This message has been edited by RangerT)

OGE That is a very true and very sad statement. I feel blessed to have a totally different vision here than most Venturing programs elsewhere. It does take a shared vision for Venturing, and all scouting programs for that matter, to flourish. My crew and other crews in my council have really proven to me what older teens can do taking on adult responsibilities and doing a wonderful job delivering what the crew members want and need in their lives, as well as wanting to give their time and talents to making their community a better place.

Ok guys don't gather the wagons in a circle just yet. Let me tell what happened in our council, several years ago our SE admitted he was not well informed about Venturing so he felt it was his obligation to make this program work ( an unusual attitude for a scouting professional). So he researched where the program was working well and brought in some very knowlegable and experienced people to lead a council wide week long training program for Venturing leaders. Fifty adults attended from a variety of backgrounds. We studied all five areas of specialties and got some hands on experience with s

Ok I think there have been a few erroneous generalizations being made here. First most councils do not understand the Venturing program well enough to support it. Second, unless most of your crews are LDS units many advisors are not former scouters, in my own council I am one of the few scouters, except for LDS crews. Thirdly, Venturing IS NOT the Venture scouts or Explorers of old and are not supposed to be related to them. The councils that treat them as such will certainly fail with them. That has been what has been happening in many areas and why crews are failing, fortunately my council e

Eamonn First of all I just wanted to say that I for one do not consider you disloyal to scouting, quite the opposite in fact. Since you used a statement I stated as the title of this thread I just wanted to say that it was meant only in humor, if you took it otherwise I deeply apologize. We are both close to the same age and have both been involved in all phases of scouting for a long time. In spite of the stats, which are sad to read, there are a lot of very well run and solid crews out there attracting many teens to the program, I guess I am blessed that my area is doing better tha

Gentleman Change is inevitable in all things, even Scouting. If we are closed to change than like the dinosaurs we will fade into oblivion. Venturing was not created to be an extension of or run like a boy scout troop. Those crews run like a troop are the ones Eamonn shows that are closing down, just like many boy scout troops today. As an advisor for five years, a scoutmaster for five years, and a cub leader for three years I have a great love for all that is scouting and it saddens me to see our numbers continue to drop. As for Venturing it was designed as a program with diverse ar

The numbers you show Eamonn I think only tell part of the story. Many crews, as someone said earlier, were created by the scouting "Pros" and were nothing more than ghost or paper units to boost numbers so of course they folded or ready to fold after a year, a practice I have heard that occurred nationwide. The stats you quote are reflecting the demise of those units which were never real units anyway. The other problem is that there are very few scouting professionals and few scouters who really understand the purpose and program of Venturing or even Sea Scouts for that matter. We are a

My dear friend Eamonn forever the fatalist. Even in the time of Baden Powell scouting did not attract most of the young boys, even if some scouters delude themselves into believing it did. The reason our numbers are dropping is because of new interests and attractions that did not exsist twenty years. In modern times with fears of your kids being snatched or abused by perv's, parents keep their kids indoors or isolated much more. To prove this, when was the last time you saw all the kids in the neighborhood out playing together like we did as youth?? Another reason is the huge increase in

SR540 I agree to what you stated and if you have ever read the contract signed between the CO and the council each year you would see it leaves out more than it puts in and probably needs some revisions as to all the responsibilities of a CO. As to the friends of troop xxx as the CO, my experience with one such unit was unreal, they met at different houses each week, no real committee, just a group of parents who were signed in by the SM. Adult supervision was minimal one or two adults except at party time which was their committee meeting which was a bbq and beer party while the bo

It just goes to show you that even the National office can give you incorrect information. In my opinion we have this printed in several official pubs yet unless this comes up in a court case it will always be one of those nebulous questions. I think this Jenn person, if she even truly exsists, set this up as a bait and hook to cause some discord in here for whatever motive, and she was successful. It probably would be best to recognize this question for what it truly is and let it go.

Jenn The answer is quite simple following National guidelines in Venturing you are considered a youth member until you turn 21, which is the minimum age for an advisor. A youth member and advisor who are in a relationship can not be members of the same crew until you turn 21, then you both can be adult advisors. So there is no need to talk to a COR or anyone else, these rules are very specifically spelled out in the Venturing Leaders Manual. You can join another crew if you like but not the same one until you are 21. Remember in Venturing crew you are a youth member through the age of 20.

I do not think the problem with Venturing is the program as much as it is a total lack of understanding on how to administer the program, the lack of vision from the so called experts at National, and the desire of old time scouters to turn it into a glorified boy scout troop. It is a coed program run totally by the youth around the interests of those youth, that's why the adults are called advisors not masters or leaders. Eamonn, many sea scout units are folding at a faster rate than Venturing crews, mainly because of the high monetary cost of maintaining a boat or ship, insurance, fuel,

Eamonn I hear what you are saying and I agree with you 100%. I am glad your ship is doing great and those are the kind of memories I was talking about in my post. A lot of people in here, myself included, have a great respect for you and your experience and I hate seeing you in a negative state. So screw those dishonest professionals and full speed ahead. May the rest of your scouting experiences be positive and may there be smooth seas ahead. YIS

Eamonn I have been rather surprised with you lately. The threads you have started have been full of feeling sorry for yourself stories. First your thread on how the council has been a bitter disappointment to you, then the I don't give a damn anymore thread bemoaning district and unit volunteers calling you for advice. Next there was the thread about not becoming an eagle aimed at hops and now this one. I think you are going through a midlife scouters depression crisis. Well I think that many of us here have had the same or similiar scouting experiences as yours. However dwelling on