Quixote

If you honestly think it's about oil, you're seriously deceived.

I guess Haliburton should recuse themselves from a possible contact (that is for infrastructure rebuilding, not "oil concessions") because Cheney WAS employed by them before he was VP?

Jeep Grand Cherokee with lift and winch (comes in handy when setting up gateways with LARGE logs.

Front Seat Area -

Bottled water under the seats, maps of NJ, PA, NY & DE (road and topo). First Aid kit, North Face tent.

Back seat area - extra sweatshirt, scoutmaster handbook, scout handbook (sons), Rope, first aid kit under one seat with ponchos and emergency food kit (energy bars, water purification tablets, etc.)

Behind back seat area - 2 burner stove, propane tank (small one) winch kit with extra rope, slings & couplers, flags (U.S. and Troop), one scout's pair of boots still in the baggie he left there, shepards jack, extra ball (for the canoe trailer that is 2" instead of 1 7/8") camping chairs, fishing gear, hiking pack.

On Roof - Klondike sled from campout from the weekend.

Still attached to the hitch - scout trailer with troop gear - dropping off a the COR's on the way to the PLC meeting tonight.

Supposedly, all the scouts that rode with me got all their gear out yesterday.

Does it matter that boys learn values while playing games or that boys play games in order to learn values as long as the end result is that they learn the values that Scouting is trying to teach?

Oh, my gawd....Oh My Gawd....OH MY GAWD.....IT'S THE BLACK HELICOPTERS - THEY'RE COMING FOR ME......AND PRESIDENT BUSH AND SATAN ARE FLYING IT...

per ASM1

This is EXACTLY what I mean folks by volunteers quoting policy as they see it and trying desperately to implement it into actual policy. Consult your council folks when in doubt. Our district is full of these thinking folks who wish to impose their ideals of scouting. Council hold the rules, the rest is just a volunteer opinion.

ASM1

Read the policy - if you think the BSA endorses your smoking in front of a scout, you're full of it. As far as me trying "desperately" to make policy, I read the policies and when they are not crystal clear, I ask Council for guidence. I have asked my Council - they interpret the rules the same way as they are WRITTEN. Just so happens that my opinion, as a volunteer is just as relevant as yours, except my Council "interprets" the policy as saying that you MAY NOT USE TOBACCO IF SCOUTS ARE PRESENT. If National had wanted to allow it, they should have worded the policy to say that you should not, not may not.

As far as me trying to enforce the policy, if i saw you smoking on a scout event, my only issue would be that you not smoke or chew or dip or whatever in front of the scouts.

Mom, MAY i have a cigarette?

No, Johnnie, you MAY NOT.

YIS

Quixote

Ed,

how is this unclear:

"Adult leaders....may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants."

Does it say "prohibited" as in the preceeding para. in the G2SS? No, but "may not allow" is just as clear. You may not allow this whether you like it or not. If your council, district or troop allows it, they are in violation of the G2SS.

I'm not an anti-smoking nazi, but the rules are very clear. I maintain that there is only one conceivable interpretation.

YIS (scouting, not smoking )

Quixote

1. Tigers do not belong in Wolf dens earning Wolf badges, they belong with other Tigers doing Tiger things. If the parents don't want the younger brother in the Tiger Den, then he shouldn't be in Cub Scouts.

2. The COR is the person that needs to get involved here - he/she is the only one that can replace the Committee Chair. The UC doesn't have that much authority, i don't think.

How did the boys get assigned to dens earlier in the year? Did the Cubmaster do it, or was the CC in on it? If the CC was in on it, I understand how she could feel that you went behind her back to get something done that shouldn't have been done (Tiger in a Wolf Pack).

Other Opinions available for less than $.02

YIS

Quixote

ASM1 "posts" Um, that quote was from a press release I posted here. I never said any of the words YOU say is a quote from me. Someone is not paying attention. You think US news agencies are open? And I don't need to buy a clue, I have plenty.

My apologies for misstating what you "posted". I hope i am safe to assume that since you "posted" the press release here, you agree with it. Either way, it is hogwash.

As for buying clues, maybe I need to stop by the store and pick some up too.

I believe the U.S. news agencies, while somewhat ostrich-like in their view of world events, are a lot more free and unbiased than reports from "press" in socialist states like France, Dictatorial states like Egypt or other countries that do not have a free press.

ASM1 says

And Iraq is merely the first stop on a sequential plan for control of the last remaining oil reserves on the planet. I encourage all who read the information contained in these links to spread it far and wide and also, by whatever means at their disposal, to tell the mainstream press, members of congress and the White House itself that we will not follow; we will not obey; and we will not kill on the orders of those who lie to us and who demonstrate the integrity of thieves and intellectual cowards.

RUN.....the black Exxon helicopters are coming.

Aliens are controlling the president and his chief of staff.

ASM,

How do you know where Youngblood is getting his info? As for the U.S. press not being independent, please buy a clue.

The unasked for, Quixote's interpretation of the Guide to Safe Scouting policy on Smoking, Toking & Boozin'

The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members.

Explanation - NO DRUGS OR ALCOHOL - EVER on their property or any time there are youth participants. It is ok to have a meeting or dinner of ADULTS and have a beer (from the way it's written, even do drugs, as long as they aren't illegal - i guess if you're meeting in amstradaam, you could have a very interesting dinner)

Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants.

Explanation - We should all be anti-smoking zealots and smoking is PROHIBITED any time there are youth involved

All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants.

Explanation - BSA want's us to stop smoking, but it's ok to smoke 'em if you've got 'em - at adult only events - just be considerate of others.

The policy does not need to be rewritten, it needs to be read or re-read. Common Sense is a remarkable thing - as long as a lawyer's not involved*

*Legal Disclaimer - The author of this article posts with tongue firmly planted in cheek and the preceeding should not be construed as a personal attack on any members of the legal profession - unless they want to construe it that way, in which case, my daddy can beat up your daddy and your momma wears combat boots, na na na na na na!!(This message has been edited by Quixote)

Boy Scouts of America

Resolution

WHEREAS, the Resolutions Committee of the Boy Scouts of America (on behalf of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America) on June 1, 2001, assigned the Relationships Committee of the Boy Scouts of America with the responsibility for considering and making recommendations to the Executive Board with respect to various resolutions submitted by members of the National Council at the annual meeting concerning the appropriate flexibility to be employed by the Boy Scouts of America in establishing standards for leadership; and

WHEREAS, the Relationships Committee duly formed a Task Force on Resolutions, composed of a cross section of representatives from religious and civic chartered organizations and others represented in Scouting, to consider these resolutions and make recommendations to the Relationships Committee; and

WHEREAS, the Task Force has reported the results of its thoughtful and extensive deliberations to the Relationships Committee, which submitted the report to the Relationships/Marketing Group Committee, both of these committees having approved and adopted the Report of the Task Force on Resolutions as their own; and

WHEREAS, the national officers, having received and considered the Report, unanimously adopt the recommendations of the Report without reservation; and

WHEREAS, the national officers agree with the report that "duty to God is not a mere ideal for those choosing to associate with the Boy Scouts of America; it is an obligation," which has defined good character for youth of Scouting age throughout Scouting's 92-year history and that the Boy Scouts of America has made a commitment "to provide faith-based values to its constituency in a respectful manner;" and

WHEREAS, the national officers agree that "conduct of both Scouts and Scouters must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law" and that "membership is contingent upon one's willingness to accept the values and standards espoused by the Boy Scouts of America," and

WHEREAS the national officers further agree that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the traditional values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the values of the Oath and Law; and

WHEREAS, the national officers reaffirm that, as a national organization whose very reason for existence is to instill and reinforce values in youth, the BSA's values cannot be subject to local option choices, but must be the same in every unit; and

WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America respects the right of persons and individuals to hold values and standards different than the Boy Scouts of America, the national officers also agree that the Boy Scouts of America is entitled to expect that persons and organizations with different values and standards will nevertheless respect those of the Boy Scouts of America;

THEREFORE, the national officers recommend the National Executive Board affirm that the Boy Scouts of America shall continue to follow its traditional values and standards of leadership.

BYE BYE.

kwc - i hear you and understand what you're saying, but there are KNOWN weapons of mass destruction that Iraq was to have destroyed and according to their report to the UN, they haven't. It is not a case of going in, kickin' butt and not finding anything. If they aren't there, show the inspectors the documentation and paper trail indicating their destruction. Iraq refuses to do that - WHY? the only conceivable reason is that they have NOT destroyed the weapons that the UN KNOWS they have.

Is it possible that there is a "smoking gun", but to reveal the source to the world would endanger those sources? President Bush indicated last night that classified information exists that would lead the average american to support action being taken.

I guess that classified information should be revealed to us because we can't trust our own President.

That's not what classified information means, but i don't want to spark another dictionary debate.

acco - my wife agrees with your comments regarding the stand up / sit down clap, clap, clap stuff.

p.s. Buchannan is an isolationist in his views IMHO.(This message has been edited by Quixote)

Per kwc "The problem that many people are struggling with is the US becoming an agressor nation. We have responded when we have been attacked or one of our allies has been attacked. Think Pearl Harbor, Kuwait, 9/11, etc."

Per the Wolfowitz speech," There are also gaps in accounting for such deadly items as 1.5 tons of the nerve gas VX, 550 mustard-filled artillery shells, and 400 biological weapons-capable aerial bombs that the U.N. Special Commission concluded in 1999 -- and this is the U.N.'s conclusion -- Iraq had failed to account for"

Do you prefer that we wait till there is evidence of USE of these weapons? Nations either harbor and support terrorists or don't. If we have evidence of Iraq harboring terrorists (i have no doubts that Iraq hasn't), the idea of Al Queda terrorists with access to WMD's scares the you know what out of me.

I believe it comes down to we either ACT to prevent further terrorism or we REACT after the terrorist attacks. Yes, it's a fine line, but folks, we're already at war - we have been since 9/11 and will be for quite some time. The only thing is the battlefields shift from country to country and sometimes involve stealth and sometimes not.

I think that even at that age, they wouldn't mind repeating EXACTLY what they did the year before - my 5 year old can't even remember what he did earlier in the day, let alone a year ago.

My youngest son has wanted to be a scout since he was 3 and has a pack t-shirt as well as an old hat and neckerchief that he wears on regular occasions - such as yesterday (with shorts) and pretends to have scout meetings just like big brother. He will go to the Pack Pinewood Derby this week as well and race a car with his brother (in the judges division - the Pack uses the Troop to provide judges for the cars and lets the boys bring their old cars or build a car and race it in a seperate class). The little one can't wait till 1st grade and i agree that it would be possible to start at K, but the pack meetings would be even more of a mess...

lv - you're very correct, it has been VERY cold of late and the need is great.

The local shelters have gone from an average of 50 beds per night to over 200 with people sleeping in chairs.

Our church did a drive last week and we found over 5 coats in our house and some blankets, etc. that were on the top shelf - there no longer.

Please remember that your kids outgrow their clothes on a regular basis and there are homeless and needy children as well.

Are patrols required to file Trip Permits with Council before a patrol outing?

littlebillie,

your statement "if those are the good ol' boys of the Klan, then the FBI should never have infiltrated..." is more than a little insulting. BSA may not be as open to all as you would have it, but to compare it to the KKK is ridiculous.

As far as having a homosexual man as a role model for a confused and possibly homosexual boy, you logic stopped there. If you were to truly believe that homosexuality is such a bad thing, I seriously doubt you would advocate said boy to be around a homosexual man for guidance.

kwc - tj told "in confidence" a scout exec. - that is a TRUE STATEMENT OF FACT.

how does telling an official representative of the BSA become confidential - you are assuming (and yes, i'm using the right definitions) that tj is only avowed by anothers actions when in fact, only tj can avow his homosexuality which he has ALREADY done by informing someone who is a) his friend, but more germane to this discussion b) a scouting executive.

Therefore, the BSA has officially been informed BY tj himself that he is homosexual. If the scout exec doesn't do anything about it, that's another thing entirely.

sctmom,

Although i find myself on the other side of the policy regarding homosexuals, I RESPECT your position and do not consider YOU to be offensive and bigoted, just your statement.

There's a U.S. Military Academy camporee each year @ West Point. This may be what you're thinking about.

There is a waiting list to go.

kwc,

First, thanks for the definitions - don't know what i'd do without my trusty little on-line dictionary here (j/k).

Believe me when i say that I did in fact read your entire post (several times) and while i may be guilty of having a splinter in my eye concerning my side of the argument, might i point out that (to use a biblical analogy) there is a log in yours? (it's all perspective isn't it?)

After several readings, it appears that you are interpreting the last paragraph and "ASSUMING" where it says specifically that if you tell a person of official capacity, it "cannot be assumed to be private and confidential" You are assuming that it IS confidential here.

I do see your point, in that the official may say, "gee, tj's gay, but he didn't tell DISTRICT SCOUT EXEC JOE, he only told FRIEND JOE"

That's a terrible position to put someone in even if they do share your position on the POLICY of the BSA.

As for littlebillie and others encouraging tj to "stay in the closet" after he has informed other scouters and a SCOUTING EXECUTIVE!!!!, might i suggest that you add the term deceiptful to the scout oath? To openly suggest that someone infiltrate an organization for boys to further the political agenda of another group that is at odds with that organization is nothing but deceiptful.

kwc,

Your post said it better than I could have:

"Conversations, correspondence, and statements with or to the Bishop, District Superintendents, Board of Ordained Ministry (and its committees and officers), and district Committees on Ordained Ministry (and their committees and officers) cannot be assumed to be private and confidential."

By your example above and tj's admission that he has informed at least one SCOUT EXEC., (who, i would argue are in similar positions of responsibility as those identified above), he is an avowed homosexual as far as the BSA is concerned and as such is not eligible to hold a leadership position according to BSA membership standards.

And i always thought it was the right wing conspiracy theorists that thought the government was trying to track their movements and control their activities. It really is circular, aint it? The FAR left and the FAR right both think the revenuers are out to get 'em.

ASM - that is one WEIRD troop you describe.

PRAYING TO GEORGE BUSH???!!! Man, i'm a registered republican, from Texas and voted for his old man against Reagan in the primaries in '80 and I ain't THAT far gone!

Maybe you could volunteer to be the RT chaplain???

Goodbye, goodluck, enjoy your life.

As for as your statements concerning bigotry and intolerance goes, it is unwarranted and uncalled for.

kwc,

friend or not, confidant or not, IF tj informed a SCOUT EXECUTIVE that he was a homosexual, that SCOUT EXECUTIVE has a DUTY to abide by the policies and procedures of the BSA.

If he has informed a BSA employee or scout executive, he, as far as the BSA is concerned, is an avowed homosexual and subject to removal from his leadership position.

NJ - please help out here - if i tell the local counstable "in confidence" that i committed a crime, can not that "confession" be used against me in court? (Assuming i have been "read my rights")

How can you tell someone as a friend and not expect them in their official function NOT TO KNOW???? Some friend to put them in that position.

kwc,

I have read the definition of avowed, thank you. As a matter of fact, i had originally included the definition from www.merriam-webster.com in my post, but since you had already posted it, i deleted it from my response.

As far as reading the definition, perhaps you can read my entire response where i allowed that while tj may not meet the ENTIRE defintion, he has at least gone up to the line by tellling SCOUTERS.

I am fully aware that words have meanings - that was my point.