BDPT00

acco40 stated the proper dress very clearly in his post about 10 before you asked for a copy of rules. Just ask acco if you want a source, and then just follow the rules. Don't make up your own.

BDPT0

Thanks acco. Looks pretty straight-forward to me. Easy to understand and follow.

BDPT00

IM_Kathy's comment says it all. That's why trainers need correct information and correct uniforming. They represent the BSA.

BDPT00

bigbovine,

I would recommend this ... with pad and pencil in hand (either taking notes, or pretending to), say, "So what I'm hearing is that things that happen in the OA are a secret, yes?"

If they actually are willing to say yes, then it might be a good idea to get that person to sign and date such a statement.

I wouldn't recommend getting too involved in conversations regarding the OA activities, and I'd submit that your presence would stifle the conversation, but there should be no secrets. The only issue is that you may be spoiling your own participation in some activites because you'd know too much. There's a progression of understanding, and the fun or mystery or understanding of it all is a personal growth opportunity, even for you.

However, your concerns are valid, and nobody should be able to bar you from an OA activity if you feel the need to demand entrance. Popular idea? No.

BDPT00

Thanks Jay. I was a bit confused, and mostly by the expression of the scope creep on goal sheets thing. Not part of my vocabulary. I had no idea what that meant. I'm OK now.

BDPT00

Just curiosity ...

What does "no scope creep" mean? "Goal sheets" have something to do with tickets?

Why is an AQM directing TGs?

Not understanding the posting (or why it's in this thread). Help me out. Thanks.

BDPT00

The 'logic' I'm seeing here is ludicrous. Saying that hazing is good for boys because it's part of life is akin to saying sex is part of life, so let's make sure we have our Venturers get some good practice in a safe and controlled environment. Sex and pranks. Good for life.

If it's good for our Scouts, please point it out to me in the Scoutmaster Handbook. Trying to convince those who don't approve of pranks is a waste of time, just as is trying to convince those who think they know better that it's risky. We can't control every unit ... just our own.

BDPT00

So far, the only ones mentioned that I like are the gnome and the little hats. Nobody sees any problem with locking people in a room in a boat that they can't get out of? When an emergency happens, the only thing that matters is getting out in a hurry. Try explaining those little pranks to the authorities or grieving parents, or maybe just to the person whose boat or tent gets destroyed by somebody who can't appreciate the growth opportunity available, and busts out.

To me, "acceptable pranks" is oxymoron.

BDPT00

Times have changed, and I'm not a fan. The newest immigrants seem to want to maintain their heritage. Pride in one's heritage is great, but this is America, and I don't think that all of the divisiveness (is that a word?) is doing us a lot of good. I think that our parents' generation tried to become "Americans" as quickly as possible. It was part of achieving the American dream. I don't know that I'd recognize the American dream is anymore. What is it, and how are our newest Americans going to achieve it?

BDPT00

bacchus,

Need to check into your source regarding Romney and Eagle. Wouldn't want something in here to not be true!

BDPT00

I think it's a non-issue ... nobody was hurt or humiliated. It was an innocent prank, and should be encouraged (depending upon which units condone that kind of thing, of course). It will happen in real life, and the offended patrol needs to man-up. It's a growth experience, and now they can do it to the next patrol (the Snipes!). Sounds like a fun tradition, and it originated with the boys. Leave it alone, and see where it goes.

BDPT00

A few weeks ago, Shortridge sent an email to the national leadership of Heritage Girls with a pretty big list of specific questions. Did we ever receive a reply? Maybe I missed it.

Thanks, BDPT00

If that's the way you'd like to wear them, it sounds like a great idea.

Don't look for rules that don't exist, because you're sure to find them, snd this is a good place for that.

BDPT00

It's a good thing I don't care about your perception.

Your examples are all part of program. As such, they are promoted, encouraged, and often required. Pranks/hazing/bullying are not. Your examples will be in books and program material. Mine will , too, not because they're encouraged, but because they're discouraged. Dare I say forbidden? Yes I do. Yet, some leaders persist in believing that they somehow build character. I get that. I think character and citizenship can be developed without teasing the new guy. They can get plenty of that outside of Scouting.

The perception of the one individual (and his parents perhaps) is what will make him walk. A good leader will help the Scout by trying to understand how he feels or will feel during certain activities. Sometimes we're blindsided, because we didn't realize how some kids feel. We learn.

The notion that kids learn valuable life-lessons from pranks is not in my realm of programming. That's my perception, and I'm willing to share it. I've heard yours, and I'm not willing to accept it as mine. You can keep it, thank you.

BDPT00

I know four for sure. Only one knows me here.

BDPT00

I hear ya loud and clear. Not a problem. The perspective that counts, however, is still the "victim's." Your Arrowman example is a good one. The lad is clearly not fit for the OA (at least from what I'm hearing). Wrong age? Wrong year? Bad weather? Lousy food? Tease? Tired? Don't know. It just didn't work out, and I'm fine with that. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of banning Ordeals and camfire skits. I'm in favor of trying to find out if there was maybe something that could have been done to make his Ordeal more enjoyable. If so, next year's Ordeal will be better. If not, that's just the way it goes and that's too bad. As much as we'd think it is, Scouting isn't for everyone.

That doesn't dismiss my opposition to pranks. As far as we know, nobody did anything to this kid. If he'd spent the night out hunting snipes, I wouldn't feel the same way.

I don't equate the two examples. Again, we won't be agreeing on this.

BDPT00

So if, as BDPT00 points out, a lad has a bad experience at his OA Ordeal, we should prohibit OA Ordeals? An off-color skit means banning all campfire skits?

*** OA at the national level (and certainly at our local level) has already done that. Hazing/pranks/bullying (I'll throw all of it in the same pot) that used to take place at Ordeals is now forbidden. I've seen many skits interrupted at our council camps (staff has seen most any skit before, and knows when to jump up and stop inappropriate ones).

Regarding hazing/pranks/bullying, we either accept it or we don't. I don't. You do. Simple enough.

BDPT00

Don't forget the "youth religious award knot". That knot is also worn on leaders uniforms. And it doesn't have to be a Scout religious award.

*** What does that mean? (Scout religious award)

BDPT00

Seattle Pioneer puts forth what he sees as interesting in the news, and posts it where other interested parties might see it or have a comment. What happens? He gets jumped on! I found the article to be interesting, too. There were plenty of comments regarding Girl Scouts. Are they true? Not true? Let's talk about what's in the news. Thanks for the info, SP.

BDPT00

Only seeing the story from one perspective?!

Whose perspective is the only one that matters?

I can't believe I'm reading this crap. Here we are, the guardians and mentors for parents' precious cargo, and we turn them over to a bunch of thugs who are going to tease them in a proper fashion so that it becomes a growth opportunity, and that these young guys can do the same to the next awaiting victims in a few years.

I know several Scouters who are Ordeal members, and have been since their youth, because they don't trust anybody wearing a sash. Why should they? The only perspective they have is their own memory.

I'm with Rick_in_CA. If this is what you think builds character and citizenship, count me out. I've done my share of ruining potential pranks, and I will continue. Scouting is supposed to be a specail place. Kids can get picked on in plenty of other organizations. They're trying out Scouts, and you want to tease them. Basically, you're saying Boy Scouts is no better than any other choice.

We're the adults. We're the leaders and mentors. We're the ones who've been trained. And here we are, discussing where the line is for bullying and pranks. We know better than those troops who crossed a line, and we can control our well-intentioned traditions of building men who follow our example, and the example set by the older (14 year old?) kids who've been there before. And when that line is crossed, we all raise our hands and say, "It wasn't our fault" and "That wasn't supposed to happen; never did before." It was just an innocent prank, sanctioned by the leadership in the Boy Scouts.

We're obviously polarized on this issue, and I'm one of the weak ones who can't take a joke, and don't think innocent pranks are fun. So be it. Here I stand.

BDPT00

The SPL thinks this is a bonding moment? It has nothing to do with teasing the little guys? Odd, but if that's the culture in your troop, and everybody gets a warm fuzzy from it, far be it from me to change it.

BDPT00

Wow! A united front. The pot is neither stirred nor shaken. Thank you for that.

BDPT00

The only pranks allowed in my troop were those that had once been played on the person doing the prank.

If they can make it through that first night they will be walking a little taller.

*** And we call ourselves mentors and setters of a good example?? Absolutley unacceptable in my unit. Also unacceptable for NYLT, Wood Badge, basic leader training, or the OA in my neck of the woods. It sounds to me as though some leaders think it's a good practice to thin the herd. Doesn't work for me.

BDPT00

I don't know that want to ask us. Ask HQ. You've got some very large troops out there. Find out what they do, and see if national likes your idea, or maybe they'll have some suggestions. Opinions here are strong, and you're objective shouldn't be to have your troop end up looking like a Boy Scout troop.

BDPT00

Interesting question, and interesting comments. I don't see many positive replies, and so far no informed ones. I know these organizations exist out there. Cito mentioned reaching out to inactive SBs. That sounds worthwhile, and who's going to do it? Maybe that's part of what this organization would be for. I'd like to see some posts with a positive twist. This could be a good idea with some brainstorming.

Regarding Basement's post ... I read MV's posts, too, but I wouldn't consider him part of the uniform police if he's willing to wear a district patch on his right sleeve. He says nobody seems to care. Is that a good reason for someone who otherwise pays close attention to the Insignia Guide? I think not.

BDPT00