ParkMan

Hi @Eagle94-A1,

Thanks a lot for the description of what's going on.  You articulate it very nicely.

First - one Scouter to another - you've got my support.  At the end of the day, you've got to run the program that makes sense for your troop.  It definitely sounds like the father is less than respectful in how he's dealing with you guys.  It's most certainly not cool that he's running off to hotels and not telling anyone.  That alone would be a reason for me to let the family leave without an attempt to change their minds.

If I take the Scout's situation at face value - I'm less concerned about what he's doing.  Yes - without doubt, I'd like him to tent with his fellow Scouts.  But, if you guys have honestly tried that and met resistance from him, I wouldn't be concerned about making an accommodation. 

Let me think through what you list above.  I offer this simply as food for thought.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

He's been in over a year. He's been on 6 overnite camp outs, leaving Saturday night on a 7th one because he refused to stay in a tent with his patrol, and attended 2 summer camps.

Sounds like a pretty active Scout to me.  7 campouts and 2 summer camps.  Nice.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We have tried to work with him, but he keeps sneaking out and joining his dad, and when mom and little brother are in attendance, the family. He is leaving his patrol behind, and leaving his buddy behind. In once case the buddy panicked when he woke up and found his buddy was missing. This caused both of them to sleep outside the father's survival shelter instead of in their own with the patrol. Apparently he was sneaking out of the tent and joining his dad last year at summer camp as well as this year.  As mentioned, last weekend trip he decided he was not going to stay unless he could stay with is dad, and they left. SM talked about this to the parents and the Scout when they were pushing for a Second Class SMC and BOR. Everyone agreed the Scout would sleep with his patrol f rom now on in order to advance to First Class, and the Scout has not kept his end of that bargain.So we tried to work with them, and the situation has continued. And even got worse with summer camp.

I think I'd have cried uncle after the second attempt.  If the kid is sneaking out to be with his family, what is the benefit by trying to force him that much?  The Scout doesn't like it, the family doesn't like it, you all are frustrated.  So he doesn't tent with another Scout - I can think of worse things.  

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As I said dad is encouraging it. When other adults talk to the Scout about the situation, dad says nothing. When this was discussed last time with the Scout and his dad for Second Class, another adult overheard him mutter to himself about if his son wants to sleep in his tent, he will.

Seems to me that the Dad just doesn't agree with you guys.  He and their family just see this differently.  

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Some of the Scouts are getting resentful about him getting rank without actually earning it.

What didn't he earn?  The requirements are:

Tenderfoot: 1b. Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch.

Second Class: 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in five separate troop/patrol activities, at least three of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least two must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee.

First Class: 1a. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee.

The patrol or troop campout is the event, not the act of sharing a tent with another scout.  All this scout has to do is sleep outdoors in the tent he pitched.  As long as he does that, he's completed the requirement.  There's nothing about tenting with other Scouts in the requirement.  We've had kids sleep in their own tent from time to time.  Most of our older scouts sleep in their own 2 person tent.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Finally, the SM talked to them about the entire situation.  He talked about how he depends on the adults to do what they say they will do. He talked about leaving camp without telling anyone and the problems it could have caused.

To me, this is the real issue caused by the family.  This is inexcusable.

I'm playing a little devil's advocate here - so please bear with me...

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

In my and other people's opinions, yes.  When this first arose and the SM talked to them, Scout agreed to stop sneaking out and sleeping with dad. The Scout has gone back on his word, and dad refuses to encourage his son to keep his word. And it has turned into a safety issue. On multiple occasions now, Scout has abandoned his tentmate, leaving them alone. In one case this caused the shelter mate, upon waking up, to panic because the Scout was alone. That scout would not go back without his buddy. Long story short, both  Scouts stayed outside the  dad's survival shelter.

Looking at it differently.  Here we have a Scout who is clearly not interested in sleeping in a tent without his father (parents?).  I'm sure this is largely a result of how the parents are raising him.

Our "big purpose" as Scouters is to develop these young adults.  The "game" we play to accomplish that is Scouting.  We deal with all kinds of mistakes from Scouts because we're going after the big goal of developing these kids.  If Scouts can't make mistakes in Scouting, then where?  

Here you all know this kid has an issue with tenting.  So, after you give it the good college try, then perhaps it's worth giving the kid a year or two to mature and be ready for it.  You could continue to make it a big issue, tick off the parents, and get them to go to another troop.  Or, give it some time, let the kid mature, and move past it.  I tend to think long term about these kind of things.  What is the long term impact to this kid because of these decisions.  What is the long term impact to the troop because of these decisions.  Perhaps with that in mind, then yes - pushing the family so much that they leave the troop might be the right thing.  Me, I think I'd let it ride for a year.

Just wondering though...  

What's the benefit to the Scout by so angering the family that they leave?  Is getting the Scout go tent with other Scouts an issue important enough to have a separation over?

I always thought they were separate events too.  I'd have Scouts receive the AOL as soon as they earned it.  The crossover was at a fixed time later in the year.

I just read the crossover script.  It was a bit hokey for me, but that's just my style.  But, I think you still have them attend and conduct it.  In my mind, the OA are still the group of senior, distinguished scouts - an impressive bunch.  They would seem the best group to encourage Scouts when they cross over.

If we're honest - training really isn't necessary at all.  Scout troops will continue to exist and kids will get the experience of being a Scout.

We have training for anything to provide the opportunity to learn so that we can perhaps do a better job at what we do.  Training doesn't guarantee that.  Hopefully it does give you a few tools you can use.

Personally, I think trainong is a good thing.  Howevet, if someone isn't open to training or is confident enough in their own abilities already, then they shouldn't go.  

I find the negative Wood Badge comments curious.  Yes, I agree - if attending the class is unlikely to lead to you learning something new- then don't go.  However, I have not run into anyone who has taken the course and criticizes someone else for not going.  Honestly, I hear way more negative comments directed towards Wood Badge and those who take it than anything else. 

Five years after my original posts here, I still think Wood Badge is a great course and encourage Cub leaders to attend.  I learned a lot as a new leader taking it and remember the lessons frequently.  But, I'm someone who sees a course like Wood Badge as a way to become a stronger Scouter.

FWIW

We see all kinds of mistakes in Scouting - that's part of why we have Scouting.  Usually we're seeing mistakes being a Scout, or being a Camper, or whatever outdoor skill is involved.

Sometimes kids make mistakes at being a person.  For whatever reason, a Scout starts going off the rails in terms of how he treats others.  These kind of things can end up being really positive for the bully too.  So, while it's human nature to be apprehensive about dealing with these kinds of issues, I'd be less confrontational and look at is as teaching yet another lesson to the Scout involved.  This might be a lesson that the Scout carries with him for years, if not the rest of his life.

The first thing I'd do is have a discussion about the concerns among the core leadership team - CC, SM (I think you said the position is in transition), key ASMs, etc.  Everyone should get on the same page that there is a concern and should share what they know.

After that, I'd do 3 three things:

1) talk with the scout(s) who may have been bullied.  As what happened and listen.

2) talk with the scout that has been accused.  Talk about bullying and that some people think he's being a bully.  Discuss what has happened to date and what he thinks he has done.  See if he thinks he's a bully.  But, make clear that under no circumstances is bullying condoned..

3) talk with the Scout's parents.  They are your partners in this, talk to them that way.  Let them know that concerns have been raised and that you're digging into them.

As I see it, our job as Scout leaders is to create an environment where bullying does not occur.  But, when it does occur, then we need to figure out what happened and work with the kids involved so that it stops.  So, I think that how one handles bullying is just as important as trying to prevent it in the first place.  I'm inclined to treat a first offense as a learning process for the scout involved.  Of course, if the bullying was particularly awful or was harmful, there are limits to treating it as a learning experience.  But the scout needs to know - there is no second conversation.

12 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

oh my gosh, I have no idea how I would find out that info.  The troop number is 354.

Thank you so much!

I looked around your troop website and cannot seem to find a time for the meeting.  Often they list this on the troop website, but they didn't here.

Sorry.

15 minutes ago, Mich08212 said:

Yup, Im in process of doing that actually. Spoke with a great guy named Jeff Stern. Hes a District Chairman. Have spoken with Robert Rabbitt. Hes a Senior District Executive.

Been looking at the site for the next meeting but I dont see anything until aug 16th a roundtable BBQ. The site is: https://www.sccbsa.org/bt

I would love to go and ask that very question.

Good.  However, from what you just described sounds like district level meetings.  A roundtable is a training meeting for district leaders.  They fellows you mention are district level people.  A district is the city/county level organizational grouping within Scouting.  There's usually about 50 troops and packs in a single district.  

You need to find the Troop Committee meeting.  This is the leadership meeting for just your troop.  It's different.  Feel free to PM me your troop number and I'll see if I can find it for you.

It seems counter-intuitive, but individual troops do not report to the district level people.  The way the BSA is setup, a single troop is an autonomous entity.  District staff are usually quite well connected in Scouting, but they don't hold much too sway over a given troop.  

Hi @Mich08212,

I'm a Troop Committee Chair and have been for a while.

Why not just go to the next committee meeting and ask what's up?  They are all generally public meetings.  If someone came to ours and had a question like this, we'd take the time to answer.  

6 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

 

I'm terribly sorry to hear about the frustration this has brought yoh.  You've brought a lot to this forum.  If this ends up being it - I wish you the very best.

25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

 

Well, I find all your self-righteous grandstanding sickening. Most of us hear have similar experiences as yours and most of us respond with similar reactions.

You have no proof that any scouter here has acted or will act otherwise. But you use our posts out of context to express judgemental accusations on most of the forum list.  In your hypocrisy, you are see all scouts as amazingly wonderful, but not all scouters.

This is a place where scouters have an open forum to express their thoughts on these subjects. But since many of the opinions aren't your opinions, you find the differences offensive. I hinted earlier that sometimes silence is the most powerful response to a post. But you can't help yourselves. Your emotions drive you to change us.

I lost respect you guys because you have no respect or trust for anyone who thinks differently than you. You can't guilt me to change, I have too much of real life experiences with real life people balanced with religion and pragmatic sense to fall into your shallow utopian vision. Folks who know me know that the "My way of the highway" doesn't work for me. I'm open minded about new ideas and approaches. But at the same time, I know what works and what doesn't. If you want to change the goals, fine. But don't get angry with those of us who don't accept your idealist progressive vision. Just accept that we go our way, you go yours. Remember, scouting is local.

You want heart tugging stories, I can pretty much match anyone here.  But if you think you are selling the better BSA, well you will have to contend with my real life experiences and the wisdom that was painfully forged from those experiences.

We all want a civil discussion of looking at life from our different perspectives. But when we start ranking each others moral character by our words, well something has to be said. 

Barry 

Barry,

You don't know me.  I did not start name calling. I think you started the self righteousness comments towards me.  I've bent over backwards to make my point without criticizing anyone's beliefs.  I simply said that I am concerned that given the consistent comments in this discussion about transgender kids not being normal it would become spill over into similar comments to this kids themselves.  Is that such a stretch when we had a post from one of our members who didn't even want to even be in the same summer camp as transgender kids?  In other places, I'd say that a number of the posts use "charged words" - language which is itself inflammatory.

I am far from a progressive liberal.  I've been a registered Republican all my life, generally vote conservative, listen to Fox news, frustrate my much more liberal family.  Yet, I will admit that I struggle with this forum.  I appreciate that we have this place to share experiences, but I find there is a very conservative tone that is very negative about these kinds of issues.  If we were debating politics, I would take a very different tone.  But, so many of these topics are about excluding groups of people from Scouting.  Don't let in gays or transgender people - that's basically what we're talking about.

I only spend my time on it here because this isn't a local forum.  You want to sit around with your local friends and make comments about kids in Scouting - fine.  But, this is a national forum.  It is not local.  So, please don't be surprised when people who live these issues make a counterpoint.

5 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

I just have to say I feel this ideology is egregiously false. Gender is an inherent, essential part of who we are. It is not at all fluid - a girl cannot become a man, nor can a boy become a woman. Those who disfigure their bodies in a desperate attempt to change from one to the other will only reap misery and regret. I refuse to accept that a boy who alters his biology to become, physically, a "woman," is a woman - he is still male inside, and nothing he does will ever change that. And vice versa. This, of course, is strongly related to my beliefs, which hold powerfully that we existed before we came to Earth, that we have s purpose for being here, and that we have an eternal destiny after this life. The deceit which claims we can change our sex or gender, just because we don't feel like we fit current societal perceptions of gender, is false. A male has always been and always will be male. A female has always been and always will be female. I am not fooled by modern suggestions that try to dis-establish the permanence of our sex - just because a child feels he doesn't fit the way the world personifies a man, doesn't mean he isn't one. The same for girls. I find the fact that this discussion is even current I find a sad commentary on the way the world perceives who it thinks we are.

Many kids who go through this do not change their biology.  For them, they do not need to.  They already feel that they are the other gender and so physical steps are not necessary.  But, yes, some do.

Again - all I'm asking is that we be mindful of the rhetoric around the Scouts - all the Scouts.  You may not have yet met a transgender kid, but it is coming.  These kids have hard enough life as it is.  @Hedgehog's crew sounds like a great group.  If you are some day faced with these kinds of decisions please simply do the same.

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Not where I live. The only place I have ever seen a transgender person is on TV. 

I met the first kid I knew who was coming to terms with with gender identity questions about 5 years ago.  The kid has not transitioned, but was clearly trying to figure things out.  In the back of my mind I thought  - it has to be easier if the parent stops this.  Over time I got to know the kid and realized he was like every other kid - but his struggle was gender identity.

About two years ago I found out that a kid that I have known for his whole life was going to counseling for gender identity issues.  I've known this kid all his life.  He's a wonderful kid - has the same struggles as others- school, friends, parents, etc.  He has the added challenge of dealing with his gender identity.  He's been in weekly counselling since then.  His parents struggled with it and pushed back pretty hard.  They talked to counsellor after counsellor.  They eventually figured out that they needed to simply support him.  

What I've come to learn is that transgender kids are kids first.  They want to be accepted and loved - it's just a whole lot harder for them because to them being normal means being accepted as having a gender they were not born with.

8 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

This is the same information we were provided and clearly states that we are to accept scouts based on what they put on their application.  Unless they say otherwise, my CO can not deny their application.  It concerns me that members here are posting information or giving advice contrary to the information National has sent out. 

It's covered in the interview.  He makes it pretty clear it is up to the CO.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I don't understand the grandstanding, I can't find any posts in this discussion that suggest otherwise.

Barry

It's the tone of the way people refer to it here.  Such as:

40 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Except that the reason why that "girl" Scout is crushing everyone else at the log saw, clay pigeon shoot, and fireman carry race is because they are definitely not normal (as defined by science). Nor would I be comfortable with that person showering/changing/tenting with my daughters. 

On the surface it seems innocuous enough.  But, it leads me to be concerned that folks will treat transgender kids as an oddity or even .  This topic is full of comments about how they don't think transgender kids are "normal".  I'm an optimist, bu t it's hard to trust that all the folks who commented here are going to warmly embrace a transgender scout in their troops.

7 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Different question.    hopefully an easier one.    where  will a trans ( female to male ) scout tent?   with the girls patrol? then we are not treating her/him as a boy.    the boys? scary     alone?   ostracizing 

My understanding is that each troop is to work with the scouts parent and the BSA professional staff to develop the processes that makes sense for that youth and the other Scouts.

It could include sharing tents if everyone felt it was appropriate.

I saw a doc from one of the councils with details - but cannot seem to find it now.

29 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

 If that case, I'm afraid they/you will have to get used to being offended.  It happens a lot in every ones life.   

Again,  I decline to join in this suddenly popular belief that  sexes magically  transform.    That XX =XY    They want to fly with that?   OK  It's a free country.   

  You want to identify as a cow and sleep in a barn?   Go for it.  Have fun.  But your DNA still reads as human.   again reality

I have not, do not and will not demand that others share my beliefs and viewpoints.   I expect the same courtesy in return.

I mean this in the nicest way possible - but it does not matter to me what your personal beliefs are on this topic.  My point is that as Scouters we need to leave our personal feelings on this topic at home.

If a transgender kid shows up in your troop you need to accept him and support his involvement in Scouting.  The scout should never know that you disagree with the guidance of his family (and probably a healthy number of professionals) on his gender identity. Again - it's is not our place as Scouters to do discourage Scouts who are transgender.

I'm making this point because it would be wrong for me to leave the impression that it's okay for Scouters to be offensive to transgender Scouts.

Of course there is an exception is for units where the CO objects.  But - that's not what we're talking about here.

23 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

And you don't see this as a risk of abuse! Who decides gender identity, the parents or the youth? Do you not see yourself making my point of the BSA excusing abuse?

Barry

 

In my experience no parent wants the harder life the being transgender brings.  If you really don't believe that a kid is transgender, then report it as abuse.

12 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Let's pull the reigns in on the runaway horse ...

Woaaah, we can ill-afford to dismiss volunteers because they don't accept a cultural paradigm.

What's more important? To be called gender dysphoric yet accepted, or to have PC terms used about you and treated with disdain behind your back?

I'm sorry, but in my troop/crew cards get put on the table. Sometimes challenging is a form of support. Most of you all do is force scouts to face harsh realities and use that to build a youth's character.

The bottom line: until you meet one of these kids, you really can only deal with it in the abstract. And frankly, in the abstract is a lousy way to try to deal with it. Because the way your boys would deal with a girl (according to chromosomes) in this situation is completely different than anything you can imagine in your head.

Trying to tell somebody there's a pre-built way to handle it and they gotta step in line or step out, well, it just doesn't help.

I know two transgender youth.  I am not an expert of the topic, but understand it well enough to know where we need to start advocating on their behalf.  

Yes - these boys face a difficult life.  The last thing they need is a bunch of Scout leaders trying to tell them they are not normal.

My point was - and continues to be - that you need to leave these beliefs at home.  These kids need a little normalcy and the best thing you can do for them is to help them get it.

13 minutes ago, awanatech said:

You accept them for something that they are not, correct? I'm sorry, but to call yourself a boy does not actually make you a boy. 

The term is gender identity.  @shortridge describes it a few posts up.  In short - yes, if a person believes he is a boy, then his gender identity is that he is a boy.  You may not personally believe that - and that's fine.  But, in the context of Scouting - if a kid shows up and he and his parents say he is a boy - then yes, he's a boy.

Outside of Scouting, feel free to challenge that.  But, inside Scouting we support him.

55 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

 

 

There is this weird thing I try to hold on to, it's  called reality, and it is not dependent upon where I am be it a scout meeting, home or church.       " judge"?  where did that come into it?    I am not judging, I just don't agree.  These people have a condition ( I hope thats a non offensive term)  that I wish them all the luck in the word with, however they may wish to deal with it.   Just don't demand that I pretend that what is male is actually female or the other way around

Actually saying they have a condition is offensive. You don't pretend they are a boy - you accept that they are a boy

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Support! No, I think you mean respect. A person can still be respected without supporting their behavior. Respect and support are quite different. Some believe supporting some behaviors is no less than child abuse. Encouraging volunteers of a national youth organization to support youth behavior they disagree with is encouraging an organization of child abuse. I understand and respect that many disagree, but they should respect it.

Barry

I do mean support.  I'm not suggesting that you have talks with the scout about being transgender.  In fact, if a Scout wants to talk about being transgender, you ought to suggest he talk with his parents.

We need to support the Scouts as they progress through the program.  If a transgender scout is having a tough time In the troop you help him.  If the Scout needs coaching about being a Scout or getting along with others- you help him.  In short, you show an interest in helping that Scout have a fantastic experience in Scouting.  You go out of your way to help him be successful.  If you call that something different than supporting the scout - that's fine.

8 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

I am supposed to suspend my belief in basic biology and go along with someones totally subjective feelings about what gender they are?    

In Scouting - yes.  We're here to support kids - not judge them because of how they or their family define gender.

At home, at church, or other places no.  

Just now, David CO said:

This is not something that scouters chose to be involved with. It has been forced upon us. There is no way that we will validate this behavior. You may want us to, but you can't force us to support it.

Welcome to 2018.  

You may not want to have to deal with it, but it's just part of contemporary society.  The BSA didn't get to decide if this would be a topic any more than you or I - they just got to decide how the group would respond.  The BSA is pretty late to the game, but they've done what just about every other group that deals with kids has.

In any issue like this - there are those out in front of it, those that follow along, and those that get dragged to it.  The BSA was absolutely not a leader here - it is just following along.  I am sympathetic that you're getting dragged in to it - but it's just the reality of today.

At this point, continuing to rally against it just hurts those kids that need our support.

BTW - shoot the messenger if you want (aka downvote this), but I'm just being honest here.