ozemu

You think that is weird. Here we put our dates as day/month/year. So according to my screen it is now 3 November.

I do not think that the rules are more prohibitive becasue we elders are worried about our comfort zones. I agree with OGE about why that is happening.

Are we losing Scout numbers because we do not adopt these activities? I doubt it. We might attract some if we did - like amusement parks, but I do not think we lose any because the program is not exciting enough.

Providing....

we have the people qualified and experienced enough to lead high adventure

that we go on high adventures often enough

that we have the gear for it

and that the Scouts can afford it.

that is is different to what is offered by other organisations (commercial and community)

and lastly ...providing that it is adventurous for the Scout. At 11 adventure is different to adventure at 15 or 17. Sleeping in a cardboard box is adventurous the first and second time you do that. Camping without adults is scarry when you first do that - exciting when you get more used to it.

I do not think that adventure needs money or fluro lycra. But it does need to be new and exciting for that Scout at that time.(This message has been edited by ozemu)

We don't seem to have the problem. Some camps are advertised as Family camps. Other times I ask specific people to come and help but generally speaking the parents stay away in droves.

if a Scout is having homesickness issues I encourage the parent to come along and camp with the leader patrol. I would rather that than the Scout stays at home.

Parents doing chores? I think that they would not stay with our Troop for very long.

Anyone wear a football or baseball team cap at camp?

I don't really care if you do. It shows who you are to some extent.

Religious items. Who wears a little cross on a chain around their neck?

Are you allowed to wear your military ribbons on your uniform shirt? We are. Pilots wings? Special forces para wings?

Who is a democrat - as in card carrying? Do they have printed shirts?

I do not wear any of those things. Some apply to me and some don't. If you want to wear them i don't care. But I want the Scouts to look at what I do and how I do it - not at what I support. But then again my uniform has certain badges on it that I have earned in Scouts as an adult. Wood Beads for instance. What makes those messages alright but the other badges not okay? I think that it is that the uniform contains recognition of what I have done in the Scout realm. I could and do do the things that earned those badges at any given moment.

A lot of young people wear brands to 'adopt' a particular image that may or may not really illustrate their abilities and beliefs. Deaf metal band logo's come to mind. Is that who they are or what they want to be? I still don't care if they wear them. Scouting challanges our character and abilities. The truth will out regardless of what you wear at the start. Besides mud covers even the most glaring logo.

I fear that this discussion might soon be snapped onto by the political forum fanatics. Lets hope that this yarn does not dive into extreme hypothetical what if's.

Hi Justin,

It's great to have you here. I mean it. We often theorise about what works and what doesn't. Having young blokes here sorts that out a bit. So don't be shy about helping us out - it's a two way thing.

Now what's on your mind?

At our last jamboree there was a mild epidemic of dysentary. The four pot method sounds good. Much more than I do in my home but among 15 000 other campers it makes sense.

I daylight as an outdoor education instructor. Almost 100% of our school campers have dishwashers and we teach them how to use a sink as well as how to abseil and paddle. That still amazes me.

Good story OKScouter. Looking forward to more.

True Barry true.

Youth led over here is pretty mixed. We have fewer formal procedures than does BSA as I understand it and therefor youth led is probably not achieved by the majority of Aussie troops. Also a major problem that BSA has not got is that our 15 year olds are alll removeed from the Troop. Venturers are not as easily reachable as they are mostly area Units and the drop out rate is enormous. We also loose our best young leaders just as they start to work it out is the Troop.

MaScout - My answer is 'No'. Guys nights are not something I have ever considered. But then again I am a workaholic introvert I am told. And I have a large and complicated family that takes up most of my time.

Heck Barry are girls different over here!

Although I am a registered secondary history / english teacher I have been following outdoor education as a career. Scouts is not like school. Scouts and outdoor ed use experential learning. It suits boys. And what better way for them to learn about girls than to have real ones along. They can experience living with the other 50% of the population and mistakes are expected. No pressure to learn and no exams to pass either. Maybe they will understand women more when they marry one and the divorce rate might drop.

I am being quite tongue in cheek here.

Change is hard to accept - it is unknown. But the possibilities are not always bad just because their shape is not yet certain.

Hi OKScouter. Good to hear from you. Your comment got me thinking. I did a few years in the Australian Army. But I think that I learned about leadership, ethics and spirituality from my Scouting days. (I learned techniques from Army training but the basis of leadership I learned in Scouts).

What do you refer to when you write that Scouting had an impact?

Barry, thanks and no worries. I am not going to debate whether BSA should be coed.

Just trying to correct some assumptions that do not hold water here.

Oddly I have been known to say that our Troop needs more girls. I suppose that I am biased. I have a son and a daughter in the Troop.

On a different tack - Why does single gender education work for girls better than boys? I work at an outdoor education camp. All girls groups are more humane than all boys groups. Girls schools generally show really well. Boys schools seem to have way too many boofheads. One on one they are all good kids. In a group they act differently - same for the badly abused kids.

Boys are not all abused but in a boys group they seem to suffer the same stresses and reactions as abused kids. That tells me that here all boy groups are generally not safe places - or they would behave differently. In mixed groups boys have less extreme behaviours and fewer act out in total. This is not researched but my observations only.

Thankfully you do not have these problems in the USA. Not being sarcastic - from previous posts these things do not seem to be evident in the USA. Your all boy groups are humane and safe emotional places. I wish it were the same here.(This message has been edited by ozemu)

Hello Barry,

no fairy tails mate - I've watched it happen. But I do not have any idea what other youth groups do. I was talking about Scouts. And I was referring to our Troop in particular. They abide by the Scout Laws - as best as they are able.

What strikes me though is that the USA might have more issues with youth gender stereotyping; and that in Oz our youths are used to having girls around. This generation more than mine.

This is because all sports, Scouts etc (except Girl Guides!) are coed until about 12-14. Then they split because the power - weight ratios are too uneven.

Our Joeys start with girls at age six. They know no different and care not a wit. The coed thing is no an issue and when I mention this discussion for a 'youth check' my Scouts are perplexed that it is worth arguement.

So Barry I dare say that you are correct. But change is difficult specially when it is in the face of community norms and I do not think (from your post) that the USA is ready. I am not sure that Australia was either. We did it in two parts. In the early 70's girls were in Scouts from age 14 up. In the early 90's from six up.

This weekend I have four boys and two girls aged 11-15 on an over night hike. No one has even realised that the Patrol is coed.

It is a non issue after 10-30 years.

From the international perspective...

Always with a scarf. Never by themselves. Any scarf. The scarf identifies your unit, the beads your training.

Never the Gilwell scarf without the beads. Never when working with or representing your unit. Your first loyalty is to your unit not to the Gilwell Troop. Hence we do not wear them much.

But the beads always. (with a scarf)

Isn't that interesting?

We see the uniform as being first and foremost the scarf. If we go for a non-uniform event we still wear the scarf as our identifier.

It is the tradition over here. Used to be hat and scarf but uniform changes about 15 years ago made the hat optional. (Can you believe that - in the land of skin cancer?).

Some great ideas there Eamonn.

Yes you can run a program with that number of Scouts. It is a small Patrol. Run it as one.

Eamonn has shown how to grow from a Patrol to a Troop again.

Help the Patrol run some adventures that might be harder to pull off as a Troop. Five is easier to move than 10. They fit into venues easier. They are easier to keep track of in a crowd. You can mobilise them quicker. Look for the positives - many Troops gave come back from such a position.

But right now it is not a Troop. I would advise against trying to run it as one until you have two Patrols.

And my experience has been that you need two Patrols of at least six in each before you split the current Patrol. That means building up a very large Patrol of 10-11. That is not in line with policy but if you go for small Patrols you get back into the pickle that you are in right now.

Yay! It worked for me too. been trying for weeks on and off.

Thanks Michelle

The transition to adulthood varies among cultures, but it is generally defined as the time when individuals begin to function independently of their parents

Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2002. 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

...and that is basically my view. Nothing to do with sense of humour (essential I think at all ages) etc.

Everything we do at Scouts is to help them separate from their parents and to determine their own adult shape.

Also I realise and apologise if some of my previous posts are unclear. The care system as it involves young people here involves the state imposing the separation of the young from their abusive and neglectful parents.(This message has been edited by ozemu)

I have not yet met a Troop where there were more young women than young men. The activities we Scouts do is attractive to only so many young women I suppose. I am disappointed by the implications for gender stereotyping but it should relax some posters.

Worrying about the opposite genders thoughts about you are not something that happens at Scouts. They seem quite comfortable. Not much mystique left when they see each other at dawn crawling out of a bag without having had more than a cursory wash the night before. They are more like a big family of brothers and sisters.

That's it - families should separate brothers from sisters as soon as they reach 12 years of age.

Eamonn I know the arguement and it is valid.

I disagree entirely.

Thankfully - diversity is a requirement for a humane world. We all whittle away at the same blocks of wood. Today you will have an impact. Tomorrow I will.

Part of my belief is illustrated by stark stats. 10 years ago there were ten times less the number of kids in governemnt care in Australia. Our population has not exploded over that time. ##### have cursed our children. They need to grow up early in some aspects of personal decision making and responsibility. Growing up protects them from harm. But to try to make them too serious is a mistake. Adults can have fun and be lighthearted. But they do their washing or they go to school smelly.

Sorry for the soapbox mate. I am pretty involved in the care system.

I am being honest.

Tried and tested even.

In fact I have found that having girls present brings some reality to the machismo. Being dressed down by a young woman for being a foul mouthed abusive and chauvanist adolescent tends to smarten up the rare twit who forgets what respect means.

Let me quote a 13 year old PL, "When you describe a girls (anatomy area) as (size) it isn't funny. It hurts. We don't like boys who say that".

...and the Patrol decided on some in-house rules over breakfast the next day.

Yes Lisa'bob,

that is exactly what I see Scouts being for. I try to make our investiture and grad to Venturers as Rites of Passage and refer to Venturers as men and women. (Here Scouts must join venturers at age 15).

Maybe we are doing too good a job as they invariably leave Venturers which is too boring and does not allow them to exercise their abilities and decision making skills developed while in the Troop. I think that we are sending them men and women at age 15.

I am a bit gung ho on this. To me all young people are adults or children. There is no adolescence. They are either behaving as adults or as children and I treat them as adults despite this. No middle ground. That is just an excuse. As I said - a bit hard core there.

Oh alright I treat them as adults but accept them acting as children. Some of the time.

Have got to talk to that Venturer Leader again soon.

We have done mixed and joined bike programs.

A favourite was the obstacle course (slow riding required)and jousting. We used foam pool noodles for lances and kept the riders separated by something long and softish. Also had the noodles for hitting targets at various heights around a course.

I always thought that metholated spirits was really called Scouting Spirit.

Seriously though training has resulted in accident free use of liquid fuel here.

Hi Bob T,

good to see more faces in here.

I am 39 and have a 13yo, two 14yo's and a 15yo.

Not all mine I must admit but they live here and the math looks interesting when I put it that way.

I have found that the boys who don't have time for the younger boys when their are girls around are not interested in helping others anyway.

Just to consider the other side of the coin. And this is very much how I find it works for us...

the younger Scouts get to see older boys and girls (men and women) playing and working together without trying to be boyfirend / girlfriend. What a great peer role modelling opportunity.

Scouts coed is NOT like school coed. Scouts is not compulsory. Scouts does not attract teens who want to offend social rules (at least not like some you see at school). Scouts tends to have family oriented people - we involve lots of people. Lots of non-scouts are not family oriented and are exclusive. They do not mix if possible.

Girls in Scouts is different. But we are talking about the same type of people as you currently have in Scouts.

Watching young people of all ages and both genders mixing without being all gooey has convinced me that coed is good.

And other coed organisations do not have the 24/7 experience of viewing peers working with stress etc. Only Scouts does that and it prepares people for adult life working with both men and women.