ozemu

Would those little bum bags work?

Maybe not get tangled and with space to stash treasures. Most have room for a water bottle too which around here is essential, along with wide brimmed hat.

I think that LNT (and other min impact policies) are ideals and like our oath / promise it is something to strive for in understanding as much as in practice.

As our understanding of impact develops we understand more about the planet and about our being on it.

As we water it down then our quest for knowledge and understanding is retarded. Just because the grass won't stand up is no reason to give up on trying to figure out why. Or marvelling that it can.

There will always be people who lack empathy for the environment (social as well as other aspects) and I suspect that education will help reduce their numbers more than enforcement.

LNT is an investment of effort and knowledge that increases the value we place on the environment.

OGE I don't cheat so much as regret and work hard to fix the messes I find to compensate for my inability to achieve perfect LNT.

By the way, to facilitate a different view of LNT I refer to the bush as my church/mosque/place of worship. Please treat it as such - be respectful and tidy. Young people seem to 'get' that.

In one place I can point out 400 year old grass trees and ask the kids to treat them like a grandmother of the same age. They 'get' that too.

Kudu,

no our sixth law is not being a friend to animals. It was a good law in my opinion but not vague enough to have a wide effect. Still, young people may have understood it more that way. We have a Scout is friendly,...considerate....respectful...cares for the environment.

Rooster7,

hello. Nice to hear from you again. And honestly I understand your position. I thought that an alternative might bring your beliefs into focus and that would reinforce your own views but with a deeper understanding of why you believe these things. I can't tell by your post but I suspect that I might have upset you.

Your veiw does not upset me. But I am quite comfortable with alternative ideas.

Sorry if what I believe is upsetting you.

Lets try some less upsetting scenarios.

...I drive around the corner and the Scout is herding the emu away from the road. Both are safe.

...I drive slowly and deftly avoid both animals. Then I pull up and explain road crossing rules to the Scout as we both admire the Emu's fading 'boom'.

...Peak oil is long past and I ride my bicycle around the corner calling out a friendly 'hello' to the Scout just before the Emu runs onto the road knocking me off my bike and tragically killing me (maybe my head hits dutch oven)

...the emu is the last one of its kind. Like the coastal emu's near my place. And Scouts only ever see them in books from then on.

...I am aware that I am passing through the Emu's grazing area and am prepared for one to be on the road. After all that is why the Scout is there. They are on a Patrol Activity investigating Emu habitat and I am picking them up when finished. We Scouts drive away and no-one dies...again.

...I am riding the Emu and trying to catch the Scout as they are carrying a firearm and a fishing rod and a couple of MB booklets. I don't believe the alleged good intentions of the Scout as we don't have these MB's in Austalia.

I don't think that it is possible to have a totaly trained unit.

We all join for different reasons and then our situations tend to change. We have lives and volunteering must go along with that.

Further I was in the Army for ten years and was never fully trained. There is always more.

So get the volunteers into the Scouting job that suits them and allow for that plan to change.

Keep them excited about what they are doing. And provide training that is relevant to that.

Keep the basics strong.

Hope this helps with the survey. I suspect that the aim was to get unit leaders focussed on the issue rather than finding 'the' method.

Pls let us know if there is an answer.

I have changed my ISP and cannot get the wizard for Edit your Profile to accept my new email. I cannot get past the first page 'create your profile'.

So here I sit with millions of emails from forum mates and it all goes speeding past.

I tried personal messaging Scouter Terry but he seems to be on holiday. The gaul! (did I spell that right or did I just call Terry an ancient frenchman?)

Is my windows xp the problemm maybe?

If they are young then maybe aim at slap stick level of interest. Make meetings snappy. Nothing over 15 minutes and lot of tests and adults obviously having fun doing Scout things.

For a wide game camp that my Troop planned but looked to be about to fall flat I gave Warning and Patrol orders straight from my old Army notes and wore a stylised uniform that looked a little holiwoodish. During the weekend the rules changed several times and there were neutral 'peace keeping' times to allow Scouts to stop hiding and to swim etc.

And they loved finding me. All cammed up and sitting against a banana with dead leaves drapped over me. We used radio's to let them get advice if things went stale or wrong. And the weekend worked despite it being an almost first camp for many.

But I feel your pain. Doing what I describe takes a lot of prep time and effot from the adults. I have a similar thread asking for ideas to hook the Scouts into the program. Got a couple of good ideas there from the forum.

Hi SWScouter,

the semantics of animal rights and animals right to life are not really important to me. I suppose PETA doesn't have much impact on me either.

So.

The Scout law/oath and my personal view I believe line up pretty well. These things define right and wrong. What the civil law says is grey and even dark to me.

The emu on the road would get much the same reaction out of me as a Scout. I would say a prayer for both. I would remember with horror both images for the rest of my life. If starving I would eat the emu and protect the scout.

I have killed a calf with a knife so that we could all eat. I have killed a goat and a cat that were badly hurt and in pain. I held my fathers hand while the doctors 'pain relief' allowed him to die. I catch spiders and put them outside but I will kill flies as they effect my food.

As Kudu said 'protecting from pain or for food' but not for fun or a challenge. Gern has a fair question.

These are my views, and I am not trying to make them yours. But it is definately worth discussing and not just looking for precedant.

"I concluded that these PETA nuts see no difference between Human and Animal and hence cannot ever grasp the common sense that us scouters have"

I don't see a difference between human and animal either. And it is part of my spiritual philosophy. It works with Scouting like this (for me - other deep ecologists would be more like PETA.

Humans and animals have equal rights to life.

Humans - being another animal, need to eat. We have incisor teeth. We were designed to eat meat. Other animals with incisors eat meat.

I separate this entirely from the sanctity of (human) life idea. Not being christian it seems to me that christians have difficulty with this concept.

Some christians put humans at the top of a pyramid and put greater value on human life than on other animals. For me it is more a food chain thing. After all when we die we get eaten (worms etc) so what animal is really at the top? It is more a chain or cycle.

I get a bit peeved when PETA, christians or any other mob try to bludgeon their ideas onto me. I'm interested in a frank discussion but using emotion and particularly guilt annoys me. As does someone making an assumption that their world view is the right one.

Try damper twists; basically bread on a stick.

An Australian favourite(for kids).

Make a dough. Self raising flour, pinch salt, and water. If you want to be flash knead butter/margarine through the flour first and use milk rather than water.

When the dough is not sticky (half the fun) make a long sausage and wrap it around a stick and put some effort into sealing the ends. If you get the seal wrong the dough straightens out and drops off into the fire.

Oh- the fire. Get it going when you start and put the wood side by side. That keeps the air out and the fire burns cooler - resulting in coals rather than ash. By the time the damper is prepared you should have a bed of coals without flames. If not - wait....and poke the fire; that's always fun.

Over the coals rotate the damper until it is cooked. Golden brown and swollen to three times the original size, test by trying to slide the damper twist off the end of the stick. if it doesn't slide cook for longer.

Once cooked add jam (you call it jelly) or honey or syrup (do you have that?) and eat while warm.

Originally called damper because the dough would be made into a flat loaf and laid on the hearth stone which had been brushed free of ash. This dampened down the stone.

Also good for dutch ovens but keep a couple of stones under the tin plate that you put inside the oven to allow heat to circulate. You know the drill

I bet that there is an American word for damper and that you already know all about it!

Quite right Eamonn,

basics is best. I train adults and youths at work and always tend toward achievement of recordable results. We always have fun but the tendancy does limit my brainstorming.

Which is why I ask the forum members for help. Flying a bit solo here so keep the ideas coming pls.

Birds in mud, large scale orienteering and pioneering with rubber bands and gum tree sticks are now on the list.

Hi Kudu,

we don't use PLC or Court of Honour at all. We have a Troop Council and that is it. I was trying to use your terms as previously Aussie terms have just gotten the topic off track. Seems I missed (again).

Patrol comp is good. We do this already. Some differences but I think the prize could be up'd as you suggest.

Patrol comp needs attention. See my new years resolution.

What's wrong with shorts?

I promise to put more effort into training and supporting the PLC.

My Troop needs some hooks to keep the Scouts involved and committed.

Ordinarily this would come from their enthusiasm for advancement but the next generation of Troop leaders is not at present very advancement oriented. They love the adventure but really don't want to prepare for or organise it.

We have had some success with weekend camps and some evening programs but I need some more ideas for the PLC to ponder

So what activities have worked to keep your Troop focussed and active over a two-three month period? Not major events but achievable, fun and exciting activities?

Can you imagine the phone call to mum and dad?

What would you say?

Definately going to be shown on the next troop meeting.

Glad to hear that all is well. I hope it stays that way for him.

Enjoy his time at home Eisely.

Nothing this year for the kids. I over did it last year and they begged off outdoor gear.

I got a pocket PC. I will load all of those rules and regs on it. Also the contact info for all Scouts and maybe some other stuff.

We are also now on cable for www. No more dial up. I might be on here more in 2006.

Semper the first thing that I thought when you said there was something other than spare time on your finger was a wedding ring. Probably the wrong finger. I don't wear one. But the answer seemed appropriate.

Showing respect varies depending on culture. Here all adults are called by their Scout or Woodbadge name. I have been Emu since 1985 at the age of 18 when I started as a Scouter. It is not formal (Mr))and is not too familiar (Graham).

But I am not from the USA and I believe that Mr/Mrs is pretty standard. According to tv so is Coach Lastname when at sport. Now that would get you laughed off the field here. It just depends on the culture.

I would think that not all segments of US society would use Mr/Mrs when talking youth to adult. If your Troop is seeking Scouts from social segments which do not use Mr/Mrs you are shooting yourselves in the foot by demanding something which is not appropriate to the social scene the youths are living in.

If you recruit only from your church (for example) this is not the issue. You are then promoting an internal social norm.

I don't see it as a big deal either way. As long as it meets your deliberate aims and is not just blindly following a habit. That's how I made m decision to stay with Emu. Over here it works that way.

The difficulty with getting the young bloke to pay for the window is that I caught him an hour later. So we cannot link him to the window. Maybe they will accuse each other when the Police talk to them but we dont hold much hope. So we will foot the bill.

No-one was hurt. But the ASM in the car had her brother die a couple of weeks before and has had a rotten year in her job. This weekend was for her to unwind!!

The beach we were at was Brunswick Heads. Just north of Byron Bay in the NSW north coast. A long way from Bermagui. And to my way of thinking the south coast is coooold.

By chance the Police were asked some weeks before to visit the Troop the Monday night following the camp. Very opportune time. The Copper talked about clasp knives, bicycle safety and...drugs and alcohol and youth sentancing. He had a very attentive audience.

Good job!

On Sat night we were camping in the front yard of a scout hall at the beach. Lovely spot. Then our girls said that someone was throwing things at their tent. We looked around. Nothing.

After a while it hapened again. And again. We adults were sleeping around the girls tent. Boys tents were not bing touched. I could see nothing but could hear things hit the tent. Thought it might be beetles dazed by nearby streetlight.

Other two adults were sleeping in their cars. I was under a fly with sides up so that I could see 360.

Then one car window smashed. We looked around. Nothing.

I go on sentry. Best place ended up in the tree actually.

90 minutes later three young blokes with a skin full come back, throw some rocks and sticks and yell a bit. I go after them and catch one after 30-40 yards.

We call the police and hand over one drunken 15 year old.

The ASM was a bit shaken. The window is expensive to replace but either scout insurance or our Troop will pay.

The best thing is that I turned 39 a few days later. 15 year olds have got nothing!!

Well I suppose he was drunk - and my legs ached a few days later.

And the Scouts all slept through the lot.

From now on we are not camping near a town. The bush and farms are much safer. It was a new experience for us. First camp in town for over four years.

Patrol adult free camps are, in my mind, the pinnacle of Scouting.

When alone Scouts have no adult safety net but being adult free seems to make the Scouts cautious. They make sensible and safe calls. So it is not just the parents who are worried.

Done in stages there is no reason why Scouts at all ages should not run Patrol camps.

Stage 1 for us has been back yards (big ones - lots of farmers in our Troop), having a copuple of parents following well back, having me camping 1/2 mile away down a rainforest track.

Stage 2 is overnight hikes for us mostly. We see them at beginning and end. Sometimes we do a phone check or walk past before dark

Stage 3 is multi day expeditions. We had one recently. Six boys aged 12-15 years, three canoes, all their gear and three days of flat water paddling. I hid behind a few trees as did a couple of dads in rotation. Hourly SMS nav checks (only got one grid ref wrong). They grew six inches by the time they finished. All were qualifeied paddlers with experience in that river in various parts etc.

Stage 4 - well we havent got that far yet.

All this has taken years to develop. I would not allow Scouts to dive into stage 2 or 3 without having a few stage 1s under their belt.

Our national system requires Scouts to undertake over night hikes without adults at least three times before age 15. That is a minimum. The senior level is three days out. To adhere to my duty of care I get Scouts to progress as outlined above. A few exceptions being Scouts who join aged 13 or so. They can jump up pretty quickly.

It is a big deal every time they go out. But adequate training, a few checks and balances and experience of camping as a Patrol at all times* makes the Patrol adult free camp a natural progression for Scouts.

It seems that we are not all that different from some previous posts but I do not understand why any trained Scouting adult would argue against adult free Patrol camps meerly on principle. It happens here too to some extent despite it being a requirment of our award scheme. Some people just cannot understand that Scouts are young adults - when required to act as such.

Enough of a rave. Ill go back to watching the cricket. The West Indies seem to be returneing to form.

* Troop camps are always done as separate Patrols all in the one rough area. Distance from the adult camp depends on space available and Scouts abilities.

I will not allow patrols to camp with less than four members present unless it is a backpacking type activity with lightweight gear and stoves etc. I see this as a mandatory aspect of care. This is my interpretation only and I will sometimes be convinced otherwise and can be approached by Scouts with solutions of their own.

My reasons are that the camping experience becomes a chore of cooking, cleaning, sorting and fixing instead of playing and learning. There is therefore significant pressure on less reluctant Scouts to not let the Patrol down. Ordinarily a disolved Patrol would split its attending members among other Patrols or combine with another low attending Patrol.

Patrols are always the basis of every activity. If there are activities planed that require a few members in a Patrol there are issues of Patrols of less than four being unable to compete/participate. The PL also has a pretty negative experience.

And as for two person tents - I'm with Eamonn (Patrol sized is a norm here).

Now that's pretty funny. That is a bible I could read.