ozemu

My daughters birthday is 26 Dec. The 25th is known as Ashleigh Eve in our house.

BTW what is the Yule thing? I've heard of Yule tide (don't know what that is though - just hear it from the tv) But a Yule log? And is it really referred to in greeting?

And of course Halloween trick or treaters just get a 'wrong continent matey' response from me. Humbug!

What is really impressive here is that she helped at all regardless of her training. Being surrounded by lots of people to whom she could defer, adults, officials etc and yet she still got going. Maybe her training was very good - automatic response not needing much thinking, or maybe she is just that kind of confident person.

Can Scouting claim any of this?

Yes - we attract the right sort of young people

We train them

We coach them in character

we expect an adult response because we get them to run things from an early age.

Good job Lindsey.

Thanks everyone, I had made the assumption that meetings in BSA were weekly but only because that is what we do. Our meetings are 2hrs long is about the only difference.

Becasue we have four school terms of 10 weeks (or so depending on State) we get three two week school holidays and five weeks at Christmas. Scouts generally do not meet during those breaks.

...and summer camp just doesn't exist outside Troop arrangements and they are rare.

We (after I read about BSA Troops doing it in this forum) camped every month except Dec-Jan for about three years. It was great but lots of work for us adults. Our Scouts max out at age 15 so there isn't the same planning ability over the long term as I suspect that BSA can achieve. It's all for the adults. All our oldest leave or go to Venturers. Most leave. Bad plan Scouts Australia.

An unbeatable add would involve:

below average camp food,

some cheap plastic drinking cup with an action Scout figure printed on it,

a simple logo like 'just Scout it'

lots of well groomed Scouts with no pimples laughing and doing essentially nothing

or poorly groomed muscular Scouts looking very serious, black clothes....doing absolutely nothing

a focus on looking like every other adolescent, laughing (or looking angry) and doing ....nothing

some obese and not too bright adults with Scouts running rings around them...but the kids would not actually do anything

terrible synthesised cover music with little vocal talent (that is the only authentic thing in this list)

bright flashy campfire lighting

no community mindedness or moral substabce

Scouts not actually doing anything

and the ad volunme has to involve that frequency that is much louder than the program that is being interupted. And lets change the camera angle every three seconds so that the audience doen't loose...hey - is the 't'always next to the 'y' on a keyboard. Bored oh - ARE we? This is so uncool. But so is running around - where is the virtual adventure in all this?

Pls excuse my ignorance. I saw the thread on Cub meeting frequency and am wondering if Scout Troops meet weekly as we do here? Or do you have some other arrangement? Been on this forum for years and never really thought about it.

In Australia - I don't know of a Troop that does not meet weekly and camp about eight times per year.

Just curious - thanks

Whoops. Re-read your last post nwscouttrainer.

It looks like you and the other new Scouter are onto it. If it works you will be doing everyone a service. Good luck.

The problem as I see it is actually a gift.

Getting along with each other is a main part of Scouting. This behaviour is a gift for us to explore that in detail and very personally. Scouting is not about MB's and camping skills (gerat though those things are).

This behaviour should be the focus of the Troop/Patrol and the SM and ASM's should have it as priortiy #1.

If they haven't (as it seems) they are missing the point and that would be enough for me to vote with my feet.

Just how to address this depends on variables. But conflicts are such a great way to explore human relatiuonashipos that we cannot loose if we seek to have the Scouts deal with it all. 1:1, SM minutes, parent interviews. It all sounds like manna from heaven to me. Get in and get dirty - that is my advice to the adult leaders. Everyone from SM to SPL to tenderfoot can get something from this.

But nwscouttrainer if the adults won't tackle the issue then I suggest you listen to your son. There are other Troops out there. The Troop you are involved with sounds like it is a Scout Troop in name only.

Behaviour IS the program.

I am no longer the SM here but when I was Patrol camps were routine. At least two or three per year per Patrol. What they did depends on ability. There have been a bunch of other Patrol camps that involved adults being quite close.

These Scouts were aged 11-14 years as we max out at 15 over here and they go to Venturers.

This is what Scouts is really all about. For the more remote camps I talk through with the PL the various problems that might be encountered so they are prepared with a plan. I also speak to the Scouts involved about their responsibility in keeping the event safe. The PL and I also talk about the individual members and plan for their personality. This planning is invaluable for the self esteem and growth of the PL and also effects the Scouts involved. They grow 10 feet over night on the successful trip.

Things do go wrong sometimes - that is how we learn. Because we start young with these adult free camps they don't get too excited. In fact without adults around to fix things they are more careful and conservative than when we are there. Maybe that is because I paint really gorey pictures of what can be the result of things going wrong . I have done all of the trips they undertake previosly.

I also talk to the parents, particularly if their Scout is a goose or new. That way if things go astray they are warned and can emphasise some pre trip caution on the Scout. They may also pull their child if they are really worried. That is their right. It also tends to remove problem people from the event. I explain to all parents the risks etc in some detail.

Planning on paper is over rated. Kids don't operate that way. As long as the offical paperwork is done - half the time by me then the planning is entirely verbal. Pre-trip training is part of the planning really. As they develop the skills they also rehearse the scenario's that they will encouter.

Go for it.

Small patrols of members under 15 years really don't work very well in my experience. Unless there are four or more on camp the chores are pretty hard to get through. They also tend to get on each others nerves a bit. That could be due to the chores or not enough personalities to make it interesting. Not that small Patrols cannot work - it's just harder for those involved.

If however the small Patrol is expecting new members that is different. They can hang in there getting the Patrol system working in prep for the recruits.

I would advise the SPL to look at the numbers who get to camp. Again I advise a plan that aims to get more than four per Patrol. If that means a Patrol of eight with an average of four dropping out for camps then that is what he should look at. If camp attendance is 100% then go for a small Patrol of four.

I cannot comment on Scouts aged over 15 in small Patrols.

As for how to do the split if that is chosen; I suggest that each Scout be asked to nominate two others who they get along with and then the SPL tries to match at least one of those in the Patrol with them. It is a real juggle but it also helps the new Patrol to bond if every Scout has one good mate in their Patrol.

lol, that was funny ustbeeowl.

one and a half hours drive from one end of my district to the other. Not sure about the distance in miles. about 100 miles maybe.

Nearest scout shop is in teh next state. 2 1/2 hours drive. We get everything by mail order. There is an outlet for uniforms an hour and a half away but mail order is more practicable. I won't talk about number. One - I don't know exactly, two it's notmuch

I was an Australian Army survival instructor. Your shows will end up on our tv in 2008 very probably. It's a bit like that.

Our training was for when people were not coming to look for you. The expectation was that everybody else would be too busy for search and rescue.

So it was very low tech. The final ex was with knife, trousers, shirt and hat with boots. No socks etc. They pillaged our survival kits before we left and there was very little of any great use left. One bloke lost his boot laces because they were made of parachute cord - way too useful.

Eight days later we had great muscle definition! Spent four days around mangroves turning salt water in drinkable water while listening to crocodiles.

Heck - it all sounds impressive now.

But what was upper most in my mind (besides passing the course) was that it was all really just good bush craft and followed on from what I learned in Scouts. And I figured that I would be an SM one day and the skills would be useful for Scout camps.

Of course there were extra snippets like "if the bad guys are chasing you and you knock over a cow for food - take a rear leg and role the cow over so the missing leg is downmost. That way it will look like any other dead cow from a helicopter. And the rear leg is a lot of meat with a convenient carrying handle".

Navigating without instuments or map was particularly useful. Not what we teach generally because we are supposed to 'stay where you are'. But it is a useful skill for when I've broken and fogotten my compass.

This is reading a bit boastful - here's a levener. I was tossed out of Special Forces selection after just nine days. I might have been acceptable as a digger but as an officer I wasn't what they wanted.

Well said Bob T.

There are a whole lot of good messages in what you said at Scouts.

Cub-Scout-Venturer 8-17 years of age

Scout Leader - now that is interesting!

3yrs + 1 yr + 18mths + 3 mths + 3 yrs + 7yrs = 15yrs and a bit. Most of the first few appointments were while I was still in the Australian Regular Army so I was posted around a bit. Whenever I was given command of a desk I would find some Scouts to go outside with.

oh that's good! Well done acco40.

No I can't. I'm studying psychology and can't find anything much on the university database internationally but I thought perhaps there was something in BSA that was not available to academics.

Psychology is a bigger in the USA than ina other places as I understand it. So I figured there is a greater chance withing the States than in other places.

I'll try WOSM too.

What I'm looking for is the psychological result of the Scouting method.

There is heaps on education and as far as Scouting goes there is an amount on experiential education and the effect of various outdoor activities on self esteem etc. But on Scouting and its method - nothing. Well there is one on leader training but nothing directly about youth members.

Wow, my daughter earned and wore the Indian Lore MB. It counted toward her rank advancement. She is not even in BSA! Dunno how it was organised in the States by our exchange host but I am starting to appreciate that it might have been difficult.

Thanks mate (no names no pack drill)

Shhhhhhh

People are people and we make mistakes. Stops us being cyborgs and getting a bit too proud.

They made a mistake. They recognise that. They are adults and adults make decisions about their lives.

Doesn't sound like (given the public airing of the mistake) that they will co-habitate again regardless of other peoples rules.

Maybe everyone should get over it and let them get on with their lives.

Given that the camp was not disturbed through the night I really can't believe that anyone would do anything other than have a quiet word with them in the morning.

I posted elsewhere asking for pyschology research on Scouting and was offered a suggestion (Credit to Calico)that has more to do with hotdesk's question. If interested try:

'Value of Scouting' and 'A year in the Life of a Scout' at: http://www.scouting.org/media/research/

Thanks Calico,

BSA does have a research section on its www. http://www.scouting.org/media/research/

Not quite what I was looking for but pretty good nonetheless.

Any other clues anyone?

Maybe outside BSA?

(This message has been edited by ozemu)

Are any of the forum members psychologists or students in that field? The is a wealth of educational psychology material but I am not aware of any specifically on Scouting.

Is there some psychological materiel somewhere in the archives of BSA?

Great question hotdesk.

Using the 'environment effects behaviour' arguement the answer is yes; depending on the way the Troop runs itself. Which has been said already. Some Troops will foster more life-skills activity than others. Working towards anything (Eagle, OA, MB's etc) will encourage a Scout to learn more useful life-skills that otherwise might seem like a bit of drudgery. Good leaders (adults and youth) will do the same but with more driving by others than self motivation.

Using the 'you are born with predispositions' arguement the answer is again yes; but the likelihood of real change is much reduced. As I understand it the Scout will need to know that the activities at Scouts are useful to their growth. Without that they will enjoy the fun and immediately the fun becomes drudge they will focus on other stuff. The motivation to see through the stuff that isn't great fun won't be there. Unless they know that Scouting as a package will assist them to become better people. Hard for teens to grasp I think regardless of how obvious it is to parents and Scouters. Here we are talking about things like ADHD, asperges, etc We ALL have elements of such genetic predispositions. Some more than others. Such 'born with' issues can be helped along by Scouting but a lot of people will need to help this happen. It will not happen by itself as the Scout affected will probably bow out when Scouting looses its simple fascination and requires more commitment for the fun to be there. "thirty will drop out in their first year."

So is Eagle important? Heck yes. So is anything else that causes a Scout to work hard toward a goal. That sort of motivation is more important than the presence of others - SM's, parents etc.

With no motivation they will leave. If they are not in Scouts then the 'change by simply being in Scouts' will not be possible. Yes one meeting might leave in the mind a useful memory. Might not too. Might have had a rotten time. The longer a Scout is in Scouts the more likely they will change for the better.

The more motivated they are they more likely they will change for the better.

The more they are motivated by achieving goals (any goals) the more likely they will change for the better and the easier making those changes will be on everyone else.

Hold on there Slouchhat. A great idea but there are some issues with that.

Insurance and the cost of working out things like badges etc as well as a lack of training support could all cause a lot of work and expense. I dare say that the USA is not as flexible as Germany with its various Scout organisations.

Mom is probably better advised to piggy back on to another existing organisation (not BSA or GS I suspect) and run a co-ed outdoor program via that organisations structure.

Personally though Slouchhat I agree with you in principle. Girls love Scouting the way boys do it and there is no law (other than BSA ones) that prohibit co-ed Scouting. It works in many countries without a glitch.

USA is litigious and they do seem to love structure so I don't think Mom should rush out there on her own without finding a safety net.

Any further US comment on non-BSA/GS options for Mom?

Yes - I was wondering about the MB's bit. Not having any summer camps to observe I really can't comment there at all.

I am a staunch Patrol System type. Rabid really.

But returning to the topic. Would self run camps not facilitate greater emphasis on the Patrol system? Even a few small Troops I would think would be able to maintain the Patrols as unit. Personally I can't see more than about 40-50 Scouts doing a week summer camp here. Being small means - no dining halls! You know what I mean. Small groups would not require the same facilities. Quality over quantity.

I think from a previous discussion that there is a difference bewteen self run summer camps and week long Troop camps. If that is a true statement then I am referring to Troop camps.

Gold Winger I made that comment without thinking too much about it.

What I disagree with is that the Patrol system takes a pretty big hit when a Patrol does not need to work together and feeding is a self motivating teamwork project that gets done at least three times per day. Not so with dining halls.

I understand from Beavah's post that the Patrol system was not a feature of summer camp. I really can't fathom that. I suppose it is efficiency with numbers over effectiveness with small groups.

Sounds like work Beavah,

I am the Operations Manager at a School camp site

Our Region (Council) has one property in its 600 mile length. Lots of halls owned by Groups (Troop/Pack/Unit/crew combinations)but just one camping property.

We don't go there often. We normally rely on canvass surrounded by cows or nut trees. Dining halls sound fairly repugnant.

And to run a camp I fill out a single four page form and fax it to one person.

But going for a week with other Troops and focussing (in part) on MB's still sounds attractive.

If we get going do you want to come along Beavah?