ozemu

We don't have summer camps. Just not part of the culture although there is a lot of US tv on the box at night.

So maybe we can try running our own?

We have run week long camps but not with as much parent support as described nor with an emphasis on MB's.

I don't know any other Troop that ever ran a week long camp. Maybe I could ask around the District to see if there are other Troops interested.

But what are these NCS camp and aquatics directors that you speak of? Besides having a piece of paper what do they actually do?

What we have done thus far is just a Troop camp. A long one.

oooh that sounds like a good idea easely. Wish I could've come along with you

Sounds terrible Aquila. How did everyone handle it?

Maybe you don't need the 'i' and 'l' in your name?

our uniform shirt went from khaki to navy blue. A great idea from the southern parts where it gets cold but here in the sub tropics and further north in the tropics navy blue is really hot. Just sewed the last badges on the new shirt last night but am sneaking out today in my old shirt because I'll be in the sun all day.

I hope that your uniform is functional - ours isn't in colour nor in quality.

Seems BSA is going for functionality and Scouts Australia for looking good.

Can I join BSA?

This weekend is JOTA/JOTI. We always run a camp on this weekend and have activities for those of us who can't sit still for long. I thought it would be interesting to see what other Scouts are doing this weekend.

What Scouting activity did you get involved with this weekend?

I'm just about to show some Scouts how to ferry glide so am putting the canoe on the car as soon as I've had my coffee.

Have a great day whatever you are up to.

Thinking about my previous post I realise that the youth culture around here and probably in the rest of Australia is all about not trying. Young people are encouraged by peers to not achieve. It is not cool to try hard.

I work every day with secondary school aged kids from all over the region. It is a worryingly consistent attitude.

I hope it is a passing Australian thing and that my previous post does not reflect the state of young Americans or BSA.

Hops - in no way was I criticising you or your reasoning.

We, here, need to emphasise the earning of Eagle/Grey Wolf/Adventurer level/Queens Scout/BP Award to support the young people who want to break the mould of the dominant youth culture.

This may only apply to northern NSW and Brisbane or, as I suspect, anywhere there is a surf culture.

I may be one of those who pushes hard for some Scouts to reach for the highest award available to them.

That is because if just one Scout is looking to Eagle the rest get dragged along to a whole raft of stuff that they would otherwise ignore as 'too hard, not fun or a bit embarrassing'. But with the 'one' they get involved, expand their circle of comfort and become a bit more experienced in all sorts of things.

Without an emphasis on getting to 'Eagle' (or equivilant high awards) the Troop/Unit will often opt for 'fun' as the default and that does not really help them grow. In fact 'fun' becomes boring and there is not much point in turning up because no particular meeting or camp contributes to anything but 'fun' and that's not really much 'fun' in the long run. Sitting around listening to music and chatting about stuff is what I see many Troops/Units doing without a spark of energy in the middle somewhere.

Without a minority going for Eagle, Scouting becomes really hard work for the rest of us. ie adults who lead and guide and Scouts who don't want to get awards.

Apart from that single reason for encouraging award work I agree with the other posters here.

Many of the Scouts I have walked with have decided not to pursue awards. Some because they were really committed elsewhere and some because home was not good and at Scouts they could relax in a safe place.

But...

I have watched one young man - a really nice bloke actually who I see often and and am friends with. I watched him influence others to not do things because he was basically a good natured lazy mummy's boy who didn't apply himself to anything. But as the longest serving and almost oldest he had influence. The Troop avoided opportunities to do things, other Scouts became frustrated at the lack of progress and activity and numbers dropped with the Troop's morale. I couldn't figure out what was happening because the influence was exerted when I was absent and he is a really nice young bloke. By the time I found out the root cause the Troop was pretty sick.

The point of that story is that there was an emphasis on not trying for Eagle and that was way more a problem than an emphasis on going for Eagle. It's not as if we need 100% Eagles but without the 5% it doesn't work for the 95%.

On thinking about it there have been times when male leaders moan about the good old days before girls.

I've heard the comments a couple of times in different states so they opinion must be widely held. The main complain is that boys can't be boys anymore. They used to do good-for-boys activities like pull toads apart, set fire to their own farts, swear a lot, tell dirty jokes and skinny dip in the creek. The world, they say, has changed and that is bad.

Yes - I'm teasing. BSA obviously does not experience that behaviour. But those comments were actually made in those almost exact words. We have some dinosaurs who never really got the idea right in the first place.

What we do is more important to the question of who is included and excluded. Idiots will get it wrong regardless and good people will make it work well. Boy only works which is great but so does coed.

There was talk of 'when they let girls in I'm leaving ' he too. Don't recall any specific cases of that actually being followed through.

We have never been given a percentage goal.

Scouts Australia has remained boy heavy. Rarely do girls outnumber boys. Very rarely.

There are some guide company's that offer an almost the same as a typical Scout Troop program. But in truth we get a lot of refugees from GG.

Boys and girls are different. So (given the boy dominant natureof the Troop) we ran a few girl only things. Didn't really take off. Kids just wanted to be kids.

My only firm and clear observation is that when I was a boy I was not as well adjusted as I see the boys in the Troop now. I didn't know what to do with girls, I was uncomfortable around them and thought they were made of either putty or glass. Now some of that was the era in which I grew up. But if I had been in a coed Troop I think I would have been a much less awkward young man. Not that that would be a rule to be generally applied and is a 20-20 hindsight view of my particular personality and upbringing.

Yes Eagledad isn''t the Girl Guides and girls in Scouts interesting.

I see it like this - Scouts treats them all the same. But GG has a positive discrimination toward women. That means that girls get more opportunities to get outdoors and break free of the ''I''m just a weak woman and can''t do outdoorsy things for myself'' attitude. Boys don''t need that.

Pint - if there are no guidelines or rules about women being present when girls are in Scouts just follow your common sense and treat it, as always, that they are all your nephews and neices; but your sister-in-law is is a worry wort. I run night meetings without an adult woman. I run camps with a mum-helper. If there are other female leaders somewhere about the place (big camps) I don''t worry about it. The girls are told to organise separate tentage. If there are only one or two they get a small dome. If there are more girls than boys in teh Patrol they get the big Patrol tent - and they love those tents (because they feel they are really Scouting in them and not getting a soft option).

people worried about co-ed here back in the early 90''s too.

Only real change is that we have got girls around now. Boys did not leave in droves, parents couldn''t care less, more women became leaders maybe, and I think that there are a few small domes in each Troops gear inventory. That''s about it.

No big deal. Why would it be?

Slightly off topic.

To boost the image of Scouting here, emphasising the benefit from being a Scout - I intend hosting a reunion of our Troop.

I know of medical, engineering and teaching students who were in the Troop. Another is trying for the Air Force at years end and one is a big solid farm hand.

These ex Scouts are fit, personable, responsible and great examples of our product. Many are well known locally in sport and will have been seen by the current Scouts.

I''m praying for a collection of examples if not uniformed adult role models

A few years ago a 16 year old Australian sailed solo around the world. Had been a Cub Scout.

A well known Australian businessman, philanthropist and patriot was a very active Scout through to adulthood.

and stacks of astronauts were Eagles.

But they just don''t seem to fire up the imagination and enthusiasm of a football or rap star. If they had the same PR people and tv exposure they might. That''s a national/world Scout issue.

Point is that invisible role models are not useful. The Scouting ones who count are in uniform each week at the local hall. They are the only visible role models available.

I''d love to be able to choose them but in reality anyone who throws their hand up gets a shirt. Some are brilliant and others not so. Roulette.

Lots of single parent families out there.

Maybe boys would learn respect for women by wathing male and female Scouters working together while modelling respect for eachother?

Fathers in those families (also in some two parent families that I know) not being useful role models.

Boys need to observe both genders as adults. So do girls.

You live in a big country with a big population that is segmented into areas and sub cultures. Each place and group has particular ''problems'' and needs.

You might want a male from a particular cultural group to provide the role model needed. You might need some particular language speakers. You might need lots of men. Or you might need women in overt control.

The role of women (all adults really) in Scouting would be as varied as your local communities. I''d advocate for as few restrictions as possible to allow for that diversity.

Good job Kudu.

Does it work with small schools. Lots of our schools number 100 or so and therefore only about 20 in the right age bracket. They know each other really well - which could go both ways.

Good job Kudu.

Does it work with small schools. Lots of our schools number 100 or so and therefore only about 20 in the right age bracket. They know each other really well - which could go both ways.

Does ''two deep'' apply when the place is dark and no youth members are present?

is onehour still around? used to be active on the forum. Must have committed the one hour elsewhere.

I gave up SM to become a Scouting manager (Group Leader - you don''t have such a thing) to reduce the hours. Well I haven''t - but now I can choose when I do the hours. That has made a heap of difference.

Thinking more; if you want a rule - what are the rules in your building industry? Got to be a builder on the forums somewhere.

BSA would at least be as cautious.

So what are the building reg''s for being at height without scaffolding and steel mesh walkways?

Not sure about rules but at work we climb on prof built climbing walls, tree, sand natural cliffs.

We ''spot'' people until they get to belay height. ie a belay rope will stretch and the climber will still hit the ground until about 8 foot depending on their weight. Spot means people stand below and prevent the climber hitting the ground too hard.

We spot on all low ropes which rarely get about 3 foot.

We climb on a few pine tree''s which have good solid branches with no foliage until the very end of each branch. We tie all participants together about 6 foot apart, they wear helmets (protection from other feet) and we encourage sunglasses. We use dynamic rope.

Technique is that they clim up one branch and around two. That way they corkscrew around and up and same for coming down. If they fall they hang from branches like Christmas lights. That''s the theory - never seen anyone fall.

Would always advocate belay above spotting height but truth be told it is twisted ankles etc through low falls without spotters that is the most reported climbing injury.

Are your pines climbable?

Reading pinkflames post has reminded me that I am not food oriented and this probably colours my view.

Food is energy for the next day. Not immediately essential to today so missing a meal is no problem. Just got to have a quantity and lots of mixture (veg and stuff) daily where possible.

I know others and kids are a bit stressed over taste, colour and times but I am not going to spend much effort or time on something that no wants to handle eight hours after you finished preparing it.

So meal times at camp I really only focus on whether they are sharing the jobs around, supporting the best effort of the cook(s) and sitting down as a family to eat. I do this from a distance and mostly with my ears.

The PL''s get the message regularly - a good Patrol eats together and talks. It is when a PL checks on the emotional state of the Patrol and plans the next few hours. I''m sure that is what we all say.

There you go - I''ve wandered off topic again using food as a tool for social growth.

Is it a normal BSA way of doing things for Scouts to shop for camp food under supervision of Troop leaders (adult or youth)?

I doubt if that is a rule but is it taught at training or just an expectation? It is mentioned a lot in the forum.

Are you guys a little over organised?

Our Scouts are allocatted the job of purchasing by their PL depending on the MB needs, experience, willingness, time available etc. Then we hand them the cash collected from camp fee''s at the rate of $10 per head per day. Most of the time we have a quick look atthe menu when the Patrol throws some ideas together.

Next anyone see''s them is at the departure point with food packed.

Parents do any supervision needed. They are to teach their child about buying for a family (Patrol size is large family). Now if mum and dad do the shopping then I can''t force them to teach their child. I''m not the parent. If they don''t use to opportunity that is up to them.

Personally I haven''t directly supervised planning, buying, cooking in the 15 years I''ve been doing this. I only directly supervise the gear packing and setting up of camp when I lanmd in a Troop that is starting up agian. After a few camps I don''t do that either. I set up my own camp and then run whatever activities are planned for me.

But thenm we have very few adults involved. Not enough really and neccesity forces us to put a lot on the Scouts (and their parents).

hasn''t been a problem so far. They use the phones as phones at the end of camp. Don''t actually see them being used on camp or at night. Program is generally too busy and dirty. They don''t want them wrecked I think. If the electronics are really important I think they are not turned on to Scouting and are not in the Troop.

But we retained a lot of our Scouts through to 15 HiLo and I think they had well and truly ''gotten it'' by then. Their example to the younger Scouts was what we adults say - leave it at home for safety of the item and get involved in the doing of things.

Actually we used phones a few times to SMS the Grid Ref at hourly intervals in Patrol hikes. I supervised from my dining room table and followed their progress on the maps. Worked really well a few times over - actually forced them to have breaks and check the nav which was my ulterior motive.

PSP''s etc I would ask to be left at home if I found one. I know they cost a heap and would want them safe. If used they would defeat the purpose too wouldn''t they. I think the parents get that.

seems I have touched a nerve. I suppose the fuller story might be needed therefor this is a long post.

Semantics are easy to change in word and happy to do so - thanks for the title change suggestions. I''m sure others may feel the same which I have overlooked.

Serious money is there to be honest. And that is part of the reason for the document. The major part is to ensure a leader is supported. At present my SM is doing the job as an interim because she has a fulltime job, two of three kids with ADHD, a dairy farm to manage, serious committments to her church and Scouts. She gets the following support from parents......

In fact my secretary just interupted this post to say that not one of the parents (other than leaders and comittee), would help at the one and only fundraising sausage sizzle on Sun 7th.

So the document that we are using promises:

a parent roster for every meeting, activity and camp

a newsletter monthly - mailed out (probably emailed also)

$650 in training with another $75 per year for adventurous activity training

$100 for initial uniform outfitting and $50 per year after that

reimbursement of stationary type expenses up to $75 per year

reimbursement of fuel to training courses

two (fully trained) assistants for the SM and CM

someone to continue their good work when they choose to retire

and they don''t realise that we have also put in the minutes that they will recieve a gift on completing their term. Yes - we put a budget to that too.

Now my parents have some goals and they understand the cost of Scouting and the investment we make in good leaders.

Certainly it is not a legal document. Never thought of that actually. Litigation is not generally an automatic thought here I''m glad to say. But there is a clear understanding of what is going on and a set of targets for the parents to achieve.

Now we have all done the job paying for all of those things and without any help. But I for one only lasted 6 1/2 years and then had to give in to be replaced by the current SM. And I don''t feel real good about that - she is a nervous breakdown waiting to happen. But I asked 18 months before to be replaced and watched my wife slide into full blown depression without the parents doing a thing. I couldn''t last any longer and even considered leaving Scouting in disgust. Now that is not fair on a person - even on me.

So what do you reckon John? Could you have fun with that list or does my particular case sound like fun? I understand your attitude. I didn''t put too much in the initial post hoping for suggestions rather than giving a solution so you didn''t have much to go on. If this placates you and given the more complete story what would you like to add to the agreement?

PS I have had a pretty rotten week here and I apologise if any of this causes distress - not meant to. Just looking for help in a difficult situation.