ozemu

Waren, this may be of no help at all as there may be 'rules' where you are. People seem to be good at knowing absolute rules that just don't exist elsewhere. Ways I have seen them worn:

placed over the neckerchief/scarf - necker first, beads second like two separate items

under and then flop the two points of necker back under so the beads are visible - beads first, necker second, beads brought to front

thong under flap at back of neck and criss-crossed over tails of necker

Under flap of necker and caught up in the woggle, with and without criss-crosses

Used like the laces on a cavalry hat. Were undone and relaced through the hat holes for use behing head but with the beads on the brim at front.

Tied to the woggle (thongs were cut short so it hung at the right level).

You've earned them and know something more that will help you serve the movement and the Scouts better - that is the main point in my mind. To me it is like long hair (I think - I get a number 2 comb) and you can wear them how you feel like wearing them at the time. If the uniform police get irritated I hope they are nice about explaining the 'absolutes' locally.

Young teacher the world over take years to work this stuff out 914_SPL. All behaviour has a reason and much of it is communication. What is the Scout trying to tell you - why is he misbehaving? Without having a mind reader or a really upfront Scout we have to figure that out ourselves. Try these:

ADHD - needs to move constantly, sitting still is almost impossible, so let him be involved or change the lesson to become more active, perhaps say 'I know it is really hard for you to sit quietly so just let us pay attention to this bit and then we will start doing things - this is important so hang on for a sec'

Attention seeking - feels bad when he is not noticed, give the Scout attention and they will probably want more or the others will want some, arrange the layout so you can move around and stand next to them, give them the evil eye, ask questions of all the Scouts as you go but single this one out for the more involved one - not the no brainers that he can make a performance over, say 'I know you want people to pay attention to you and it is hard to let me have the floor. This is important so let everyone listen without you making a scene or you'll have to get attention somewhere else'; obviously that someone is an adult.

Doesn't like you - that's his problem not yours. Be fair with him as with all and if he needs to exit the room then kick him out respectfully. If everyone knows this is the reason say 'I know you don't like me and enjoy trying to make things difficult for me. This is important info and everyone else needs it so give them a break. You can make my life difficult later if that is important to you'.

You are a terrible presenter - join a big cub, we're all in that one at times. Make sure every session is focussed on the one key thing they need to know. If they all get that then you are doing fine. If they get three bits of info you are outstanding, any more and you are overdoing it, back off and take a pill. Make all sessions active at least in part, allow Scouts to learn by making mistakes at meetings so they know what won't work on camp, divide and conquer - us ethe Parol system and try to never have a group bigger than eight in front of you - if possible train /refresh the PL's and get them to train their own Patrols, divide the 'class' into small teams and arrange the lesson to be in chumnks with each team doing a different chunk then rotate them.

He could be having a bad day; he got bullied, failed an exam, Dad walked out on Mom, gilrs looked at him that way they do that makes you feel like an idiot, - give him a break, let him know that he is safe at Scouts and if he is upset with someone or something before Scouts that he should not take it out on Scouts. Say 'i think you are having a bad day as normally you don't do this stuff. If you can't focus on this you should go and talk to ?? about it. So can you put your brain on this stuff or do you need to take a break while we get on with it?'.

I hope some of that was useful - teaching skills at Scouts, school or workplace can take years to perfect and even then we all stuff it up - we are human, 80% success is definately good enough.

...might not be a hawk at all. Could be a falcon.

Indigenous name for hawk where I work is Mebbin. Mibben from where I live though. Funny how words have different meanings isn't it? Causes people to grab the wrong end of the shovel.

Speaking of shovels I once had a nice No 14 and an in-tents fascination with precipitation. I was young then ...

All good advice. Beyond the cause though is treatment. An epipen will have an effect on a severe case like this for between 5 and 15 minutes. The lead time it seems is minimal unlike normal anaphalaxis which has a slowish onset. So this boy needs rapid medical help. I am no doctor and there are well qualified people on the forum who have discussed this before.

The SM must check the campsite proximity to emergency services. Do not depend on a helicopter. They will choose two patients over one, they will also not fly in lots of conditions. They are never gauranteed. Unless a vehicle can attend in under 15 minutes more than one epipen is needed. Or..

consider if you are heading to remoter places getting a GP to write a protocol and getting a couple of adults trained for adrenalin by needle. We have a boy in our Troop who carries needles for diabetes and he has no first aid training beyond Scouts. He learned how to inject in the local GP's office. Adrenalin can also be injected by needle. Get a couple of ASM's trained by the local GP, I can email the protocol we use at work, the GP can modify it. It is not hard, you will not inadvertantly kill the boy, it is economically viable ($2-50 per shot here).

OK - having written that I suggest any further discussion be on another thread - it tends to get emotive and this thread has been primarily about food. If I didn't have to go to work I'd figure out how to start a thread from here myself.

Our Scouting Assoc is based heavily on the Brit model. We have two promises and each youth can choose between "duty to the Queen of Australia" or "duty to Australia". There is also the international promise which certainly leaves the Queen out. So that is three choices and I have heard them all but almost always the firsst option with Bess in there.

I would be surprised if the OK did not also have options available if not well publicised.

I don't think any promise in the world mentions the particular Scout Assoc you are joining. It is always about spirituality, nationality and self respect. The law once described international membership of Scouting "brother to all Scouts". BSA doesn't get a mention as I recall. The international promise really would be available to any person around the world disputing a technicality about head of state.

No adults is the ultimate aim of the Patrol system the world over.

Not all Patrols are ready all of the time. If your Troop is not separating Patrols and allowing them to operate completely independantly then you are not helping to prepare them for no adult Patrol camps.

Even if you are doing all that some Scouts....! Oh - they'll always be a worry. I have spied on one such Patrol who did a three day paddle down a local river. The SM (me) and one dad checked them out a few times each day, which they did not know. I knew where they were as they were sending a text message with a grid ref hourly while moving. And the only thing that I saw that worried me was swearing - I think they were testing the freedom out in that regard.

Patrol camps all the way! - it is their proving ground for themselves, their parents and family and thier SM. Honestly - they grow 8 inches each night they safely and happily camp without adults.

Oh Avid, that seems a bit broad. Personally I am an optimistic introvert.

Go slow on turning this one I suggest.

The issue could be a serious as a spine condition that hurts in beds of the wrong softness and he intuitively knows that camping will be just plain painful

Could be that Uncle ?? molested him when he was 4 years old playing tents with a sheet over the dining room table - he remembers that tents are not good.

Serious things like this may not be known by parents - I've stumbled on similar to both those scenarios.

Or it could be something real simple. Maybe if a parent also campoed it may reassure him. He may get sick of missing the adventure with the others. He may crave advancement.

All you need to do is gently encourage and dig ask about his reasons a little. His decision in the end. Help him take small steps. If he balks offer even smaller steps. Chances are that he will try something real basic and will then join in with no problem from then on. Just go slow and gently. It is important enough in my book to try until there is success or until he leaves Scouting.

You may have heard this before but it hadn't crept in to destroy Eamonss thread - so let me do it pls.

What's the difference between Brussels Sprouts and snot?

Kids won't eat Brussels Sprouts.

Hello Niklas and welcome,

I suggest that it may be safer and easier to manage if you walk a shorter distance. Add some challenges that they must overcome while blindfolded. Some of these may also be done without talking. They show courage by doing these things. Also tolerance and respect for others while waiting or helping the other Scouts.

The challenges could be Scout skills.

You might also ask experienced European Scouts on Scoutface for ideas.

Tell us how it goes please

Emu

I thought Scout spirit was that liquid that got my very wet fire going?

I've used them but my back won't take it any more. Good in jungle where there are trees and lots of roots on the ground. No lumps in a hammock and yes you can sleep dry in a swamp or river so to speak. Problem in the rain to be aware of - water runs down tree, on to hammock cord and into hammock. There are grommets etc that solve this but be aware when looking for a model.

Hi Jessica,

Scouting is a recreation and personal development organisation. What you are describing is more an intervention - treatment program. I suggest that you have a look at wildernss/adventure thearpy or adventure based counselling.

Also try these links:

http://wilderdom.com/adventuretherapy.html

the links in the top right corner of this page will give heaps of possibilties.

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/adventuretherapy/activities_and_games

http://tapg.aee.org/

for theory and association

These planned moments can be very therapeutic. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. Some suggestions:

Make it easy for kids to pass and just listen to others - they may not be ready to speak. Make this clear when you first talk about the fire. That will prevent people getting 'sick' or 'hurt' or acting out in order to avoid the event.

Have someone who can perfom any individual grief counselling if someone looses it a bit.

Speak to the older or more experienced kids and see if they can lead the way.

Make sure there is a good amount of trust and respect in the group prior to the campfire. Night one may not be best.

Very structured or quite unstructured seem to work best. Dunno why really.

If you have never done something like this then be very comfortable about it before you go in. If you are unsure your intuition is probably cautioning you that you are out of your depth. That being said the activity you describe will probably go ok. Campfires have been used in this way since humans learned to speak. Maybe before. If you decide against then I recommend that you cut your teeth in such activities by...becoming a volunteer Scout leader or some such where there ramifications of stuffing up would be less severe.

When I have run such events it has been simply kicking it off and then letting it run a natural course with a few clarify and affirming comments by me and other's who have themselves together. The kids probably already know the rules about how to share their feelings - the camp would be pretty second rate if this was not clear on day 1. BW's suggestion is good as a structured example.

Get advice and support from the therapy people at the camp. Always refer your plans to them and ask for their guidance.

As in medicine - "at least do no harm".

Hit the 'Send Private Message' on the left of this panel if you want more.

I've been there. Don't hold back.

Northbell,

welcome to the forum.

Your how long question for an untrained person would take a very long time to be complete. Bob White usually suggests that people get trained and if that is possible (I'm assuming you may not be trained) then I suggest that you make a start. You will learn the theory that will answer your question more fully. You will also be able to assess the way the Troop is being run and how you may help out more.

A Troop requires adults to be supervising at all times. That may mean that adults are not actually present for periods of time but supervised from a distance with suitable youth leadership in the Troop. Some Troops are more ready than others - lots of variables and trained leaders should be able to assess that and supervise as suits the experience and ability of the youth members.

Patrols might be supervised but if camping more or less alone they should not need much. Trained leaders would not let an unready Patrol go too far away. A Patrol that works well could go for multi day expeditions without adults. More than one Patrol on the ground = a Troop = at least two adults supervising.

Behaviour contracts come in many forms. Twocubdad and Eamonn did a good job explaining this. I can see an excellant contract that specifies what fits/doesn't fit a law. I may not even write anything down as it is the reflecting and projecting forward that is important. Visual reinforcement sometimes works well. Role playing - great idea! If the behaviour continues - have another discussion; until everyone gets the point and the boys start controlling it without adult supervision.

I work at a school campsite. Every week my instructors sit down after the school leaves and we discuss the most interesting near miss or incident that occured that week. We learn from each other. If we did something wrong it is a non-judgemental way to reinforce that. I think that is how reasonable adults manage infringements or the unforeseen consequences of decisions and Scouts are just inexperienced adults. If I treat my Scouts as adults they end up behaving like adults.

...and there is nothing wrong with throwing rocks IMHO. Boys have been training their arm, eye and reflexes by throwing rocks for thousands of years. We don't catch our food that way any more though. Maybe throwing rocks at a target would be better? Personally I enjoy skimming flat rocks on water and have taught this essential skill to many young people. Still need to have some order in this for safety but once explained I retire from the field before I put my shoulder out.

My daughter is on her Learners permit. Here that means:

Learner driver for one year min

120 hrs of supervised driving

two theory tests

one practical test

a logbook with lots of driving skills that must be shown and demonstrated in the 120 hrs.

Apparently these new rules are resulting in higher rates of passing teh prac test the first time. More experience does that. Lets hope the accident rate declines too.

After there L plate they are Provisional driver for another year

another theory and prac test (I think)

Only 1 passenger after 2300hrs

0 alchohol reading

and soon there may be a rule that only one passenger with P, L or below driving age in teh car.

It seems that 2 young inexperienced drivers are more risky in a single car than one. Three same aged inexperienced drivers in one car is statistically really really bad.

Don't know your rules but thought the reasoning behind ours and the actions Australia (our state anyway) are taking may be interesting

Never met a Wiccan, Pagan or Baptist that I know of. Locally there are Catholics, Sikhs, Muslims, Salvation Army, Buddhists, Hari Krishna's, Anglicans, Uniting Church and a stack of fairies (serious). There are others too but I can't remember them at present.

They all (less the fairies maybe) promote the same virtues - so why get all twisted up about it all?

What about Gilwell Park? Would that be worth a visit for Melgamatic?

Our troop has two sets of gear. One for camps where we carry and one for camps that we drive to. The drive to arrangement includes big canvass tents that most Patrols can fit into. They need to be pitched right and attended to. They require skill. That's why we use them.

If you can camp in canvass the lightweight dome tent is easy as. There are other reasons for the big tent but as far as heavy canvass goes I see it as a skill that is either right or you are uncomfortable.

They do work in tropical downpours. The version we use anyway.

Our Scouts look at the sea of domes at big camps and our Scouts get quite proud of themselves. They gripe often enough until that point. Then at these big camps they compare their skill against others and can see how much they have learned.

My family has a camper trailer. The words mean something different in teh US I understand. Imagine a canvass tent that folds up towed behind the family vehicle. That's right - canvass. We were chased off Fraser Island at Christmas by a cyclone. Everybody was wet through. But not us. The rain was horizontal. All the domes went home and for lack of company (and it was wet outside) we went with them. We thought about curling up with some books but it was a family thing with the dome dwellers.

But when hiking - its goretex and nylon all the way. We use sailmakers tape for repair of tears. See any ships chandler. We also carry 6 inch tubes of aluminium that fit over the rods which withsome tape fix the poles in the field.

Snake bite kit?

We carry two elasticised bandages pretty commonly. I know Ameriacan snakes have a different poison route or effect or something (Aust snakes are amongst the deadliest but fortunately have little fangs and the bad stuff stays in the lymphatic tissue) but don't you carry the gear to deal with Rattlesnakes or what ever - depending on what lives in your area? Heck I bet some carry Bear repellant.

It's an act of faith.

I have faith that the program is good enough and relevant enough to be better than it not being run. I am disillusioned because I feel let down by the parents of my Troop and have moved into a Council job to distance myself.

More than anything else Scouting made me who I am. I trust that it works for young people that way today and that the magic will come back for me personally.

oh- and don't worry about your numbers. Just get things going so that you are feeling challenged and fulfilled. Young men line up to be challenged so you might get surprised by your Scouts peers turning up. But focus on being great Scouts. Tough, prepared, good humoured and up for a challenge at all times. If your numbers don't go up you will all become steadfast adults regardless.

Well that's my idea of what its about from a boys point of view. You older Scouts make sure tough is resilient rather than bullying.

I sympathise about the meeting place. Our troop has been operating for all its life (16yrs) in a local hall. We have nothing on the walls and only a little store room.

So we hang strips of calico on a wire that is stretched across the stage. They are five banners. One with the Scout badge, another with the Oath, the Law, honour board and a recent events board. Well not a board just clips sown to the banner. We write with a big pen the honour board names etc. use a stencil or caligraphy page. Some printing of Scout stuff - Norman Rockwell would be good. They strecth across one end of the hall and the place is instantly a Troop hall. Looks great. We just roll them up after each meeting. We use a broom handle across the top and bottom of each banner (sleeved) so they hang straight.

Otherwise - get outdoors every month. Doesn't have to be a camp but put the 'out' in Scout whatever you do.

Good on both of you for recognising the problems and planning to do something. It's what you have been training for all these years.

Also very worth considering is whether we want to change the make up of our Troop(s). Most Troops are safe places without the Lord of the Flies and where there is high trust and empathy. If we involve young people from the crack dealing ranks there will be a significant change in the character of the Troop.

To a fair extent a Troop is an unreal place. My kids go to a public school and thy get to be involved in the full range of lifestyles in our area. They don't need that at Scouts too. They walked into the Scout Hall barriers down rather than barriers up and that was good for them.

Eamonn I have wondered about this question of Scouting for the rest of the community. I have offered myself to the State HQ crew for just that purpose and have discussed the possibilities with teh state next door.

These kids (OGE unfortunately I believe the crack story - I've had a young man in my care who was delivering his mum's drugs on his bicycle at about that age) have a different world view. They would cross the line that most Troops would draw simply by saying "that was good fun". Same intent but their choice of words would be more earthy.

They generally have poor emotional control. Enormously happy or angry and wanting to lash out. Nothing much in between nor much warning that they will flick from one to the other. The PL would be the one who could intimidate the others the most. They need a much higher ratio of adults to youth and youth only would be quite unsafe.

Obviouvly the moral standards are different.

So for all the above they would not fit into a normal Troop. I have had a couple reffered from Social Services. They got along alright but they were fairly manageable and we supervised them more closely. A bit like having a Teachers Aid in the classroom. (not sure about terminology here). Most importantly there was just one or two in a Troop of 20 or so. But they were not current users or criminals. Being suspened from school is not a crime and that was about it.

So can we have crack dealers in the Troop? I think that the crack dealing smacks of more problems than a fully trained BSA leader can handle. They would have multiple mental illnesses and conditions. They need youth services types. If we partner the Troop with those services and have them on board then why not?

A have a lot of other ideas but won't clog up the forum in one go.