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Everything posted by Nessmuk

  1. For brick and mortar breed filth and crime, With a pulse of evil that throbs and beats; And men are withered before their prime By the curse paved in with the lanes and streets. And lungs are poisoned and shoulders bowed, In the smothering reek of mill and mine; And death stalks in on the struggling crowd- But he shuns the shadow of oak and pine.
  2. As usual several of you have twisted things around with text bites trying to make a case that does not exist.. My basic point is simple (many in the current generation of Scouters is softening the outdoor experience/method so much that it is highly questionable as an outdoor experience anymore) and if you don't agree, then fine.. I don't expect that you must agree. But if you do disagree, it would seem sensible to support your argument with a logical rationale and maybe some sort of underlying principles to which you subscribe in your position. I now have been unfairly accused of many things - including being insensitive to disabled Scouters/Scouts - Another wonderful tactic often used by liberals and other truth-twisters. I.e "If you have no basis to argue rationally, look for a way to smear the other guy - using any small chunk of his comment as you can." Still while you all have hurled insults and attemtped to make me appear differently than the real intent of my comments, you still have not come up with any valid basis for a position that says we should make the outdoors as easy as possible for Scouts - including electricity in camps.. One is a thousand types of exceptions don't make a case.. You refer to me as the intolerant one, yet it is you who are intolerant - expecting me to blindly agree with your unsubstantiated and unfounded positions and if I don't, I am cast out as intolerant and old fashioned and other such arbitrary accusations. If it hurts you that I refer to the Girl Scouts (incorrectly stated as the GSA), then get over it. It's commonly understoodt that girl-based activites are softer (not always of course)- but generally so.. Another good trigger for some of you to go on some anti-manhood feminazi rant. My point with this comment is also rooted in other non-canvas tent related topics that are covered well enough in threads started by a guy named 'Pappy' some time ago. How did canvas tents turn into this? I started the 'canvas tents' topic because 1) I am truly interested in the topic and want to see what others may have to write about it, 2) I wanted to test a discussion about something related to a traditional Scouting topic to see the effect - and without much waiting the concept was attacked and dimissed without any decent presentation of a position on the matter.. A defense of the canvas tent idea was dismissed arbitarily or by citing non-applicable exceptions or by unfounded accusations. All of this leads to : This proves to me that this forum (while having a few useful nuggets here and there) is mostly a place for a group of liberal revisionist Scouters to build their own circular consensus that what they are advocate doing to Scouting is justified and in the best interest of Scouting - no matter the topic or controversy, you seek to stand on the smearing of the person with a strong sound argument and use meaningless insults of intolerance and such.. Any humorous jab or politically incorrect comment is treated as serious business used to trump up an attack, while the real serious questions get silly little typical liberal style answers.. I come and go in this forum - mostly because of available time.. I always come back with "Ok - one more chance" in mind, but without any shred of a thought of arbitrarily caving on principle into whimsical ideas of the Obama-like crowd that lives here. No more.. I'm done wasting my time with lib Scouters. And I am ever more determined to advocate Traditional Scouting and the fundamentals of the real original movement. This forum is a "Matrix" style tarpit for anyone who thinks they are surfing into a worthwhile and meaningful discussion of Scouting.. Armchair-bound non-Scouters is the "real deal" at this address. I leave you all to your virtual non-scouting that you have conjured. Nessmuk is headed for the hills. "Struggle on!" NonScouter.com forum. For brick and mortar breed filth and crime, With a pulse of evil that throbs and beats; And men are withered before their prime By the curse paved in with the lanes and streets. And lungs are poisoned and shoulders bowed, In the smothering reek of mill and mine; And death stalks in on the struggling crowd- But he shuns the shadow of oak and pine.
  3. If I'm arrogant because I claim that it softens the outdoor experience too much to have power in camp, then so be it.. And to the comment about none of this having to do with Scouting.... The "outdoor method" is a major part of Scouting and is not the RV method. Uber Scouter - a compliment IMO. It's always cute how some folks (in this forum especially) just end up on the "change for the sake of change" / "not keeping up with the times" argument. Because they won't address the substance or principles of their view - usually because they have none. And as far as what people are suggesting - that's not the point ..Point is Scouts and Scouters /parents are in fact bringing electronics to camp - more and more - TV's, frig, DVD player, PC's .. I've seen it. Medical purposes argument - Sure.. But maybe they should stay in a cabin up at the staff area. I see this as the rare exception - like the old argument justifying no uniform because some kids are too poor to buy one. I hope you feel better SR540..
  4. Shortridge - I don't have any experience with these guys, but I have been eyeing their stuff.. Lots of good reference info on their site too.. Somewhere I have a whole folder of linsk and catalogs on canvas tent mnfr's.. Can't find it now.. Will post when found.. Off the top of my head I know Kifaru is top notch gear -packs and tents - Search for their name. http://www.walltentshop.com/
  5. How do you know when Boy Scout camp has become too soft ? SR540Beaver answers that.. " many camps now provide electrical service in the campsites. I've been to two camps that do, but they are in forested locations with high heat and humidity." This confirms my thoughts that maybe the 100th Anniversary is the right time for the BSA to split - one for the people who are here for the "real deal" and the rest can merge with the GSA.
  6. I agree with Kudu that here is a strong "Business Manager" sense to the whole training program..Whereas older Scout training books and current NOLS or other similar references are more about Outdoor Leadership - which can apply to other than outdoor situations - where Business Management applies very little to what we want to do in Scouting. Even in my professional life, it is understood that much of what is pushed in management classes makes little sense in the "real world".
  7. I understand your comments about heat in summer camp.. but canvas tent or otherwise..it's part of any real outdoor experience and I suspect it always will be. An important part of living outdoors begins with understanding and accepting that it's NOT indoors and therefore feels different. As a Scout and adult I have plenty of memories of the hot nights in summer camp..We rolled up the sides and front/back flaps.. As I got older (teen years) we figured out how to rig up fans made from large pieces of cardboard and pulled on a little rope hooked to the mechanism (pioneering!!) that swung the card-board back and forth over the bunks-- In the style of old arab shiek movies.. Then we told the younger guys that if they did'nt get a 100% on camp inspection they had to stay up on shifts all night and fan us. I have also seen scouts rig up wet towels on both ends of the tents and create "swamp coolers" - which really works if the humidity is not too high and there's a little breeze. In Cub Scout Family campouts (like ours last week) I have come to expect all the ADULT heat complaints and electric cords and fans running at night etc.. The boy don't ever complain -- unless Mom or Dad gets em started. Cub Scout camping actually may serve to hurt the 'outdoor method' overall - another thread someday. In Boy Scouts, if Mom and/or Dad are coming along and running electric cords (whining about heat etc)then there's a REAL problem with the way the outfit is being run - aside from heat.. My Cub Scout camping experiences tell me that we need to get boys away from Mom and Dad when outdoors - Because they cause more prob's than they solve.. It's also a shame how soft in general Americans have become..It's a rare thing to meet someone who can live comfortably in the outdoors. When I do, it's an extreme pleasure. What are you teaching your Boy Scouts when you "run electric cords" to your tent and moan so much over the heat/humidity??.. Has anyone ever suggested that maybe you should just stay home? I know its harsh, but its an option. And if your going to ruin the purpose of the experience for the rest of us, maybe its a good option. Oh yeah --Dealing with the heat /humidity anywhere in the typical summer camp scene in the US is 95% in your head - i.e. its a mental adjustment. Sure you gotta drink the right amount of water etc. an dthere are trick sto stayoing cool. But people tend to get themselves all worked up about it and make it worse.. While laying there, just think about how fully dressed/geared up soldiers are doing it in Iraq and you will snooze off cool and comfy.. Oh yeah one more trick.. When I was a Scout in summer camp we had fire cans out in front of each tent. They had to stay full all the time. I recall taking ice cubes and putting them in the fire-water can. I would set the can next to my bunk and pat myself down with the cool wet cloth until asleep. So instead of whining - we did stuff to solve the problem.. It seems nowadays in many cases boys have Mommy and Daddy right there in camp to do everything for them - including whine.
  8. Newspapers vary in their reading level - some at 5th Grade (USA Today) and some at maybe 10th Grade (Wall Street Journal).. I would pick something in between (8th to 9th) for Leader Training - not too high for unskilled or blue collar and not too far down for college grads. There's always higher level (usu. older) materials for the more educated.. But you always need a basis that will catch most everyone. I wonder what level military manuals are written at.. That would be a good data point.
  9. From another thread... I answered what I would do/am doing differently in Basic Adult Leader Training (based on my comments about my Wood Badge experience) I was primarily focusing on Non-Wood Badge training in my response. What would you all do?
  10. What would I do differently..?? Well -- alot.. But first let me answer by saying that I HAVE DONE quite a bit differently as I have conducted most of the basic training programs in addition to Pow Wow - where I have great flexibility to build my session plans. When I first started helping out in training, the course leader said - "Here, cover this section." I added some of my own elements and ideas on the fly that very first time and the Trainer liked it..So I kept on building my own library and lesson plans to add to the official materials. 1) Kill the current training videos.. They are embarrassing - if not idiotic. 2) Replace the above with substantive and serious material that shows people that they are not wasting their afternoon (or whole day), but are being trained to serve in a serious and important role. 3) Get rid of the silly components like "building the paper bridge" part of the Basic Cub Scout Leader Training, or maybe it's in NLE?? 4) Stick with the foundational and basic elements of Scouting and emphasize them. Uniforms and Patrol Method, Citizenship, Principles of the Promise and Law, etc.. 5) Provide all leaders with a REAL Handbook - not the 3 Ring Binder Admin thing that ends up in the garbage.. Good leaders will build their own 3 ring binders full of resources, ideas, and reference materials. I use the 30's and 40's SM Handbooks a lot and it is wonderful - even today.. 6) Use real hands-on (learn-by-doing) activities.. I always fold in active Cub games for adults to play - like the stave wrestling challenge.. I usually pick the strongest males in the group to challenge me and get beat (or surprise them) or if I have a lot of WEBELOS Leaders - do a blanket & pole litter demonstration as an example of the types of activities they should be doing in WEBELOS meetings. I recently conducted a Den Chief session (4 hours) and I had several similar actrivities to keep the Boy's attention..I showed the importance of games for Cubs and emphasized meeting the variety of needs by pointing to a pile of boxes and my craft junk bin and said "Build a bean bag toss game in 5 minutes".. They built one with a variety of targets and various ranges and a scoring system - It looked first rate for 3 boys working 5 minutes. They used balloons and also figured out how to make bean bags with ziploc baggies and beans or beads.. 7) Stop telling leaders they can't say the names of "Jesus" and "God". Instead explain to them at the 30Kft level that they need to be sensitive to different religions and use their judgement and knowledge of the families/ boys in conducting prayers and religious activities. I was working at one training event (OLS I think) and during the Scout's Own Session, we nearly had a mutiny on our hands when the instructor said something like this. We had a handful of people who were highly educated and immediately engaged in a serious theological discussion/debate - along with several less educated but equally faithful who challenged this instructor --who will probably not ever aagin make such silly remarks as if they were rules to be followed. 8) Stop teaching the G2SS as a set of rules to blindly follow, but explain it as a guide and delve into a basic presentation of Risk Management (ORM for Gunny) and go over the anatomy of "how and why bad things happen" to Scouts and Adult Leaders. 9) Set expectations about the example they are to set. Give them a high target to aim for and inpsire them. Don't tell them " Do what ever you wanna do, cause nobody can do anything to you" and "anything is better than nothing". Read them stories of boys who have saved lives because of what they learned in Scouting..Quotes from war heros and astronauts who were Scouts etc. etc.. Most people (deep inside) want to be challenged (just like boys do) and if they are going to spend lots of time (which they will likely) on Scouting, it ought to have real meaning for them.. How anyone could look at the current videos/ training materials and get inspired is beyond me.. I wanted to run out screaming the first time I saw them, but I resolved instead to be a Trainer someday and toss the things in the can.
  11. Thanks for commenting SR540Beaver.. On the tripping- I have a nylon (canvas version in the works) pyramid style from Cabelas -with guy lines and everyone in camp passers-by comment on how much they like the style. I show them the single pole in the center and they wonder why they mess with shockcorded fiberglass rods. The Cubs are tripping over the guy lines and I tell them it's my "Cub Scout Trap" and then I say "no running in camp" and "be observant" - and then I trip over my own guy line - LOL. Also I am dismayed at how I hear so many comments from Scouters about how hard it is to teach Scouts to do things (like set up a tent) and how new designs and technology serve as their way to accomodate the Scout's supposed inability to learn (or Scouter's inability to teach).. It was not like this in decades past (or the 80's even).. I think most people are too quick to write themselves an 'excuse note' just because "things are different now".. Just being patient and teaching a boy to overcome the challenges of a wall tent and its maintenance builds into him an attitude or mindset that is much more valuable in his future than any badge or walking around a sea of scouts to be entertained by a bunch of adults. If it's not easy, your probably doing the right thing.
  12. OK Gunny, I'll agree with your conclusion. But my observations are from ten's of troops - many many troops - not including the ones I observed and was a member of as a Scout. Oh yeah Uncle Joe's (totally fictional) truck does not stay there.. He goes home after dropping off the watermelon.. Leaves the patrol alone.. You appear to have a lot of exceptions and reasons you can't do it - and so you just can't do it. I guess I am just so fortunate I can hike 5 miles from my small town and camp in the woods. Yeah I live in a Fred MacMurray movie and we don't allow no cussin or smokin dope round here either. I know I would not put so much blood and sweat into a program if I had zero chance to make it the way I knew it should be. I would start up something else. You have decided "it aint gonna happen". No sense in saying anymore. Enjoy..
  13. Great gift and story Moxieman.. By the way, went up to Maine (Down East) two summers ago and loved it..Fell in love with Moxie too. My kids still talk about it. Next trip is to Baxter St Park (I think).. Been watching for HD sewing machines on Ebay..There's a lot of them there. Mountain Man weekend is a big attractant for Scouts here (and no Mountains).. Which makes me wonder if the traditional skills are what they are attracted to - which leads to.. Well you know..more tradittional scouting.
  14. Like I said the prob is with the training before WB
  15. Don't get me wrong.. Woodbadge was not all bad. I just did not expect that they would not reinforce the Patrol Method and go into advanced Scouting topics. The leadership training was way overemphasized and people - no matter what walk of life - just don't need it presented the way I saw it prsented. You teach some basics of communication, organization, interpersonal / team dynamics and that's enough.. Get to the Scouting stuff. And we wathed a poor choice for a leadership movie and sang a really uninspiring song that I suppose is the sam everywhere. I think maybe my gripe is more with the overall training prgram and especially the videos that National puts out. Most adults have to be dragged to training because the materials and curriculum are so bad. The basic training needs to be revamped and some standards are needed in what is taught.
  16. Canvas tent lovers and those who are just curious should check out this: http://www.nwwoodsman.com/Videos/PyramidTent.html
  17. KenK - Thanks for the reply - Good to hear there are some canvas lovers out there -On the quality of current tents - canvas is actually making a comeback and there are a variety of lighterweight canvas fabrics that breath and shed water.. I am going to be going to a canvas spike tent 10x10 for my family camping .. There are a good number of US mnfr's out there. I used a BSA miner/pyramid tent in the 80's - no floor- loved em. Also looking at a canvas tent in Cabelas made by Kodiak Tent Co.. GW- Buffalo or deer hide makes a nice teepee cover. I'd sleep in it. Gunny - I was at a Council Jamboree (4000+ Scouts) in May.. We had a station where the WEBELOS were timed in setting up a shelter half..and at that same event I saw a Patrol with 6 shelter half tents set up in a row with their homemade Patrol Flag flapping over a tent set up in front (The PL I s'pose).. I wish I had a pic - It was great how uniform tenting looked. I just made a slingshot a couple weeks back out of a Maple tree forked branch - It puts holes clean through detergent boxes with pebbles - pretty accurate with it too. My goal is to be hunting deer with self bow/ primitive knapped points in 2 years.. I just went back to bowhunting after my shoulder is healed and I have been working with a new long bow most every day. Spears- You can go South and hunt boars legally with em.. Some guys use knapped flint or obsidian spear points too. Anymore? - Gotta be some good canvas tent stories out there?
  18. Difference between truck & trailer? Truck is loaded with boxes at troop meeting place by Scouts who just packed the gear based on list maintained by the QM. Trailer stays at SM's/ASM's house and usually stays packed. If something is forgotten, it's not something the Scouts are accountable for and learn a lesson from. Both are driven and pulled to a location by an adult. Trailer stays on campsite - The truck drives and parks, gear is unloaded and hauled to the camp site by Scouts + Instills- teamwork - strength training - leadership - organization - communication .. Rain and night - creates more good challenges. Trailer. It's driven by adult to site, usually stays attached to the truck (also in the middle of the site).. No work, imagination, or challenges required on the part of Scouts. Turn on the TV and watch the game. Good idea Gunny,- It's called a Trek Cart and plans can be found in various places on the web. Here's one - http://www.netwoods.com/trekcart/trekcart.html Main point about "efficiency" since I am getting so much flak on it.. I am not saying it's bad to be efficient.. It's bad when efficiency becomes your Objective as opposed to being a measure of how well (or easily) you achieve the real objective.. So if your objective is to set up a camp - provide shelter and food / fire.. then maybe having others (contractors ?) come in before you to do the whole thing before you get there is an extremely efficient option. But if your objective is to teach outdoor skills, teamwork, hygene, cooking, and build woodsman confidence in boys (among other things) then I stand that the objective is not served well by using a troop trailer usually built or bought by adults, driven by adults, loaded/unloaded by adults, set up in the middle of camp, cooked out of by adults etc etc etc - which is how I have seen nearly every "trailer troop" operate. All of those good elements of planning and coordination you mention could as readily be applied to a Patrol hiking out of town from their troop meeting place 7 mi to a state park and setting up for the weekend. Maybe Uncle Joe drove a pick-up out to deliver the cooler, small chuck box, and a watermelon.. Not so bad. But Uncle Joe did not hover over the Scouts guarding his prized highly organized and efficient troop trailer which remains connected to his truck the whole weekend and holds his 18 different dutch ovens in which he cooks the weekend's meals and does his cleanup - barking a few orders to random scouts to make it look 'boy led'. - About the air drop -- pretty funny huh.. Always thinking up crazy imaginative stuff.. But.. the cache box of food is a real woodsman / pioneer / outdoorsman thing - no joke.. Bush plane drops and pre-stationed food supplies help keep you in the field (or on the hunt) for longer periods of time without coming home.. No reason not to fold cool stuff like that into a weekend or week-long campout - applies compass /map terrain reading, cordination and communication skills to something very useful and interesting (LIKE THE NEXT MEAL!) Is there a chance that any of you will be able to DEFEND WHY THE TRAILER METHOD AS A GOOD THING with real rationale and examples and link it to key objectives of the Outdoor Method and the Scouting Movement . Otherwise your just saying "It's right because I say it's right..and don't bother me with the facts or any of that other Outdoor Method/Patrol method silliness". No Scouting purpose is served by the Trailer Method - rather the purpose of Scouting is undermined through it. BP himself said the same about pre-arranged / contracted camps.
  19. I hear you GW..An appreciation for traditional methods is hard to explain to folks who are after what's easiest. It's not easy to explain to a modern rifle hunter why I enjoy my traditional Black powder muzzleloader rifle better when hunting.. Same goes for bowhunting with my longbow versus an aluminum arrow-shooting machine. Or to explain to a non-hunter why the grocery store cuts of meat just don't do the job for me.. It's an affair of the heart and soul - although canvas does have some technical advantages over synthetic tent and pack products - like wool is better than most synthetic garments.. You will not ever find a synthetic pack or tent that is still usable 75 years after coming off the shelf (if proper care is taken).. There are plenty of canvas examples however. Also all synthetics are originally made from (you guessed it) Petroleum ! Like I said, I scout on both ends just for fun and learning.. The traditional side gives me more satisfaction (even if a little heavier).. I just carry less junk and do fine. Still looking... - Any hard corps out there that love the smell of canvas in the morning?.... smells like "Scouting". This message has been edited by Nessmuk)(This message has been edited by Nessmuk)
  20. I am always happy to meet someone who appreciates a good canvas tent. Problem is there are too few of us out there. For base-camping or even trekking I have found that canvas is my favorite.. That being said -I still try out new gear since I am gear-nut to the end, but I love the simplicity of simple gear. Been playing with a Golite Hex3 for a year or so now.. But back onto it.. Simple tent designs seem to be gone too.. I watch people fumble with several multi-piece shock corded fiberglass poles to slip through slots in their "space alien shelters" while I insert a single stave under my pyramid/miner tent or over a line between two trees for my Whelen Lean-To.. These new tents are like most new things today-unrepairable in the field. 8 oz treated cloth is not that heavy if the design is simple, and your total load can still be light if you leave all the extra junk home.. Just lookin' for someone who loves the practicality and smell of good canvas.. Nessmuk
  21. Efficiency ?? Since when does that have anything to do with development of boys into leaders? Never has - never will !! Efficiency is just another word for "easy" - easy for the grown ups - so they don't have to watch the boys inefficiently (naturally) become leaders. A Patrol does not need a trailer to properly set up a base-camp either. If you want a sound base-camp from which to scout out.. the boys only need a chuck box and maybe a tent/ax box and cooler/jug.. All delivered by pick-up truck (or air drop) - which is unloaded by the boys. They still "hike in" some basic food and all of their personal gear. I have a scenario I am working up where we will have the patrol pack up their base-camp gear into their boxes and deploy the gear by an advance group who caches the gear for the Patrol to find by map and clues when they hike in.. Not at all efficient - but very fun and developmental. Efficiency is for bueruocrats and parlor Scouters.. Adventure and difficulty is what our boys need (and want) today!
  22. Been a while.. This thread is old yet I feel compelled to pipe up.. Woodbadge - Agree with Kudu 100 percent.. My Woodbadge experience was a halfway baked version of the leadership/management classes I has taken so many times in my profession. I got to meet a lot of nice people and a lot of pure Duds.. Some of them outright nasty - some of them openly defiant of the Patrol Method - so much that as we formed into "Patrols", I pulled out a duty roster form and two guys said they don't need that 'stuff'.. 'They'll do all the cooking..' And they were proud of the fact that at their Troops the adults did ALL of the cooking .. I could go on and on about WB.. !! In terms of Patrol Method/ Boy training and Leadership.. I just wrapped up a pretty big project at work - and a hugely succesful one at that .. Even now ~30 years later, words and experiences from my TLT /Phoenix Course as a teenager SPL come to mind as I faced and solved challenges through out the recent effort.. Things I learned and applied.. Valuable pahrases like "Know and use the resources of the Group" reel off like silk out of my old brain from TLT.. Of course these experiences all mix in with the next 20 years of development and growth as a leader.. TLT was my first structured leadership training class and maybe my most memorable (next to NROTC in college) They called it the "Phoenix program" Troop Leader Training, but it was solid Patrol Leader Training through and through -- I still have all of my materials and essays and notes from the week-long camp. I just can't toss them. I'm proud of Woodbadge only because of my Ticket work - and I consider it a badge of patience - as I patiently sat through the crap to enjoy a few bright shiny spots here and there. Oh yeah and I had to pateintly endure the teasing from the "space alien tent" crowd as I settled in my Whelen Lean-To each night.
  23. We just had our annual Pack Campout / Graduation Ceremony at a local private campground. We attracted everyone's attention & esp. that of a few old Scouters who walked up and checked us out. We had a mix of full uniform and our gold pack t-shirts with our logos. We had our usual kick-off briefing about camp behavior and putting our best image forward in the public eye and I linked it to our uniform ( or pack shirts).. Some boys were in neither (at least one shirt of "that dreaded mouse".. I think it "sunk in" on the Mickey Mouse boy when I asked him aside why he did not at least have his Pack T-Shirt. I don't think this is TShirt regulating per say (in terms of vulgarity etc), but more about setting standards and expectations - This is part of building a team mentality.
  24. From: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/scoutmastermusings.asp And we wonder why boys are afraid to wear their uniform or let on that they are Scouts.. If I were a Boy Scout watching this guy, I would be horribly embarrased. These pics at the link above are "dorkyness" defined. They also bring out the worst in the uniform -socks to neckerchief ! regardless of where the patches are worn. A few years back some beebop girl's singing group wore Scout uniforms like the girls on this show and the BSA went after them and their producers (at least in terms of an offical statement forcing an apology) This Scouter and this show did nothing but help drive Scouting deeper into the pit. He should be ashamed. Go get em' BSA Lawyers !
  25. Wow folks!! We are talking about "roasting marshmallows" here ! If you gotta be referencing the G2SS to decide if that's "safe" for boys Cub Scout age then you need to be seriously re-considering whether you yourself have the proper amount of maturity and judgement to be a Scouter. I sound harsh, but there's no excuse for that question ! Your time would be 'better spent' (HAHA) analyzing the risks associated with working on the Bowling Beltloop.
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