BadenP

Sorry Beav but you got these both wrong according to tax law, and two former IRS agents. Now I am just curious are you an attorney, if so whats your speciality? You should read the additional charter documents and agreement all CO's must sign before a charter is granted sometime, these are usually delivered direct to the IH by the DE, not the stuff the unit gets. Common sense tells you Beav that the boy scout program is not a youth ministry program (LDS may be the exception), look at its structure and purpose, your argument is not even logical. Man you are getting cranky in your old age, lol. Look Beav it all comes down to doing what you think is right and if you never get audited then all this argument is a waste of time, but if you are caught in an IRS audit you will receive no forgiveness from them, you know the old adage, "ignorance of the law is no excuse." Unless there is a large sum of money involved or a repeated history the IRS probably won't even waste their time coming after you. Bottom line get good solid reputable legal advice rather then depending on what a friend or a website tells you.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Al That was a great and inspiring article and it proves what the scouting movement potential truly can become. In this wartorn nation with virtually no infrastructure that scouting is helping these youth to cope with and contribute to the betterment of their country is truly miraculous. Our scouts could learn a great deal from their Afgan counterparts. I truly hope these scouts can survive this new insurgence and the carnage that will result. After this is all over I hope that we will try to help rebuild and give support to this orphanage and other groups like them that have something really worthwhile to contribute to their country.

Beavah, as I said I am not a lawyer and FYI there is a speciality department in the IRS that deals exclusively with what we have been discussing, 501c3's and you can be transferred directly to them at any time, that department is manned by senior tax auditors who will make sure you understand the process to the last minute detail. Listen I left the IRS because I got tired of their strongarm attitude and their ideology that everyone out there will try to screw the government if given a chance. It is a bad system, but I also know what the IRS can and does to you if you get caught in an audit, it is not a pretty sight. I agree with you that a CPA/Attorney with a speciality in tax law is worth their weight in gold. So chill out already, lol. As far as a scout unit being part of the BSA, I can tell you this for a fact they are NOT considered to be part of their sponsors 501c3 organization under Federal tax law. As far as their relationship to the BSA that seems to be addressed everytime there is a lawsuit filed against someone or group within the BSA and National is also a named party, but that is for the courts and lawyers to determine.

All I can tell you guys is call the IRS directly and make your inquiries, let it come straight from the horses mouth instead of this forum, and then you can make the correct and informed decisions instead of what is on a website. The IRS will not care what the BSA or any other website states as tax rules if you ever get audited, believe me.

Whoa there people, to answer the questions posed to me, 1) a church choir is part of the internal church structure, all of their services directly benefit the church so there is no conflict there using the EIN of the church 2) Unless a troop has qualified for their own EIN number they are not a legal 501c3 nonprofit, they can not use the sponsoring organizations EIN because of legal tax laws that identify them as seperate entity from the church. Now if a troop sets up a bank account using a church EIN then technically and legally that is a church account and they have full control of how those funds are dispersed not the troop leaders, which is why that option is not usually advised in case of an internal conflict. 3) Beavah, a church youth ministry program by its defintion teaches and guides youth through religious training according to that particular denominations beliefs, the BSA by its very nature is a non denominational entity and does not formally teach religion, a scout is reverent refers the boy to their particular faith, so the BSA is at best a program that can be used to supplement a youth ministry program not take its place. The LDS units might be the only ones to qualify as a direct youth ministry program, even though their training goes beyond what happens within the unit. Now I am not a lawyer but I was fully trained in tax law and I am also an ordained minister so if your question is about a troop being a legal 501c3 entity by virtue of using a church EIN federal tax law says no. A scout unit is considered to be part of the BSA, the chartering partner agrees to use the scouting program according to the rules and standards set by the BSA, they DO NOT have the authority to alter that program into a religious conversion program of their own choosing as that would violate the charter with the BSA. Shields Up!

As a former IRS agent I will offer this, if the XYZ Church sponsors Troop 222 and a person donates material to scout Johnny doing an Eagle project that donation is to the scout not the troop or the church and therefore is not tax deductible since it does not benefit the church which is the only legal 501c3 entity. The troop can not legally use the EIN of their sponsoring church since they are considered seperate legal entities, the troop can file for their own EIN number, if they meet certain requirements, but that is a bigger hassle than its worth. An EIN can only be used by the organization it was issued to, not an affiliated organization which a boy scout troop is considered to be, and I can tell you from first hand experience if the person claiming the deduction gets audited the letter from the troop using the EIN of the church not only will the deduction be denied but the church would also be contacted by the IRS and receive a warning letter for violating the terms of a 501c3 status organization. The only exception to this would be that the project directly benefitted the church and the person got a letter on the Churchs letterhead signed by the pastor or other church official. This is because in that case the donation would be recorded in the churches records and could be substantiated by the auditor.

rk, I am glad you got such a positive response from Tico and while he may be a great guy what he is gunning for while admirable is really unrealistic and will be near impossible to implement given the present state of BSA commissioner corps in the country. Avid, I really think you have misread your handbook to come with the idea that a commissioner can remove anyone, only the IH has that authority as stated in all BSA publications. The IH can ask the commissioner for advice, if he desires, but in NO WAY does a commissioner have the authority to remove a volunteer under any circumstances. I would suggest you talk to your DC or Council Commish for clarification

Avid As well intentioned as you might be your last post is just not true, as Oak Tree has explained so eloquently. Commissioners are not BSA police, and have no direct authority over any unit whatsoever. Commissioners who act the way you prescribe are in for a very hostile, bumpy, and short trip as a commissioner.

"check up on those leaders make sure they are doing their jobs, make them accountable." Sorry Avid but commissioners do not have that kind of authority, and even if they did the first time they tried to enforce it would be the last time they would ever be allowed back to that units meetings. A commissioner is first and foremost a resource of information to a unit, a neutral sounding board during conflicts within a unit, and a source of encouragement to leaders when it seems everything is going wrong. What I really hate to see is a commish trying to be one of the kids, or conducting a uniform inspection and criticizing some kids for not being in proper uniform acting like some kind of authoritarian over them, both scenarios put the commish in a very bad light. A commissioner is never there to run the unit rather they guide the unit leaders into being successful leaders.

desertrat You make some very valid points, but I don't think it is a matter of fragile boys or girls being a bad influence. In truth I think many of us in scouting want to preserve the organization which we participated in as kids, as well as preserving the 100 year old historic heritage. Most people hate to see change occur with things viewed as institutions. Conversely, with the rapid changes occuring in our society, especially over the last 50 years, I think change in the BSA is inevitable. Our current society does not seem to value preserving things of cultural or historical value or significance as being as important than past generations. Would the BSA survive going totally coed, I think so but it would never be quite the same organization it once was ever again. In my experience girls really thrive in the Venturing program and contribute a lot to the program, and IMHO is the right age group for scouting to be coed. I don't think the same could be said at the cub or boy scout level. The bottom line is that decision will not be made at the local level but at the National level and we will have to wait and see.

Hey Commish Nice ideas but in reality they are little more than pipe dreams, why, because the fact is almost all districts in the BSA have just a handful of UC's to serve all their units. You can't increase unit visits when you don't have enough bodies to even make one visit per year. The commisioner position is an important position but receives little respect from the units and most of them are so poorly trained they are of little assistance to units in crisis. Having the commisioner staff to "dictate to the DE to learn to stay in the background", cows will be dancing on the moon before that ever happens, lol. In my experience the few volunteers who do become commissioners are former unit leaders who have aged out of their unit positions but still want to remain active in scouting and they are few in number. The perception by most unit leaders has been and still is that commissioners are nothing more than council spies and want nothing to do with them. So until you can make the commissioner position a desireable one and attract enough volunteers to have an effective well trained commisioner force, which has not happened in all these years, all of those ideas National has put on paper will never see the light of day. National has once again put the cart before the horse, not directly dealing with the crisis of not enough commissioners to telling the few they do have how to work even harder. Sometimes I wonder if there is anybody left at National that really understands what has been happening to scouting in the real world instead of living in their own little reality.

Hey Brent You are most welcome my friend. Look, I agree with you and others here that I wish not only the BSA could stay the same but that we could reintroduce more of the pioneer type skills back into the program which IMHO would attract more boys into the program then all the crazy twists and turns National is trying to do. The reality of the world today with the breakdown of the nuclear family/single parent homes and a real disconnect of our society with nature has put the program in serious jeopardy. National has and will continue to change the BSA to reach out these youth and my fear is in ten years you will not be able to even recognize the scouting program. I am waiting for Mazzuca to make the announcement any day now that in order to allow scouting to survive the program will go entirely coed. To answer your question that 75 year old volunteer was a real forward thinker, he even talked about coed scouting at one point. I have to say that I agree with Kudu that the boy scout program has gotten watered down over the years. The question then becomes how do we save scouting and at what price?

Brent my friend if scouting was able to rid itself of all the backward thinking dinosaur era scouters like yourself it would be a far better place, lmao.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Score one for you Brent. emb021 please disregard my prior post, my bad, sorry! So Brent if the BSA went coed you would leave scouting, and the negative would be?

Sorry emb21 but your third hand information about Campfires gradual demise is just plain wrong. As I said before my wife was actively involved, and still is, at the time at local, council, and regional levels and the gay/atheist issue had little to do with their severe drops in numbers according to the report from their National headquarters, which my wife has a copy. I wish emb21 you would support your ridiculous argument with some facts, but of course you can't, before stating something which is just plain untrue. First you claim you are the BSA Venturing expert and now an expert with Campfire, give me a break already.

Broken, since we were once both DE's you and I both know that starting a new cub pack is a six month journey of babysitting the new leaders until they can get trained and get their act together. They haven't even gotten their program together yet and the council wants you to hit them with an FOS talk, bad timing.

I love these chicken or the egg type cases. This whole thing was poorly thought out from the get go. Legally the BSA owned the building but gave up that right when they donated it to the city, as far as a lifetime lease is concerned it depends wholely on the wording of the document and any loopholes that might exsist in it. If the agreement is airtight then the city will have no choice but to honor it. This is yet another case of poor management on the BSA side and political posturing on the city's side. It will be interesting to see how this comes out.

Hey Trev One of the greatest volunteers in my district when I was a DE was an 75 year old man who had more energy, enthusiasm and love of scouting than anyone else I have ever met. The kids and adults all loved him and all the knowledge he had, as well as over 50 years of service to scouting. And he was active until the very end. When he passed away he had a scout honor guard of over 100 scouts, and a huge turnout of former and current scouters. He was buried in his scout uniform which held all of the awards given to him for all of his years of service. He proved to me you're never too old to contribute to scouting.

Well said Rick, I agree 100%.

Barry, I think the real reason Campfire and GSA are failing is poor program organization. Campfire went coed and yet did virtually nothing to the program to draw a boys interest, my wife was active with them for many years volunteering as a group leader right up to being on the executive board for over five years, in her view the program has never kept pace with the needs of the youth they were reaching out to, and the powers that be did not care, resulting in the demise of the organization, which is all but dead today. The GSA on the other hand tried to do too much, and reach out too far without prioritizing key goals resulting in major membership decline, I really doubt the gay/ atheist was the main cause. Oak and Eagle, the numbers game in the BSA is still alive and well, those great stats are inflated and do not really reflect just how many of them are paper units. We have seen in the news of recent just how widespread this problem is, and don't kid yourself into thinking that National has cleaned up its act because it is not true. LFL, cub soccer are little more than paper units as are many of these inner city after school programs, if a kid comes one time he is registered even if he never comes again. So those cub unit and LFL numbers are blown way out of reality, but the BSA needs to report high numbers in those special programs to keep getting funds from United Way and other organizations. The numbers game will always be part of Nationals policy because its the way the rest of society measures the successes and failures in scouting, rightly or wrongly.

Well Eagle I will say this that the urban scouting thing was over 30 years ago and I don't believe can be used any longer as a legitimate factor in explaining why the BSA membership today is at such a low. IMHO any stats coming out of National these days need to be closely scrutinized because I know the paper unit scouting professionals are still out there twisting things to their favor to prevent a council closure. In my own council cubs are doing great, at least up to Webelos II, boy scout troops are folding up entirely or shrinking into very small units, venturing/sea scouts are doing well and growing every year. The disconnect is fairly obvious and probably a motivating factor for National in considering coed scouting.

SMT I understand your feelings but I really don't see the problem, as a Venturing Advisor for over seven years now all of my coed crews camping trips have gone without a hitch. My teens know what I expect of them behavior and responsibility wise and have never let me down, they know if they wanted to be treated like adults they have to act like adults. When minor things have flared up they have handled them maturely and fairly without any of us adults having to get involved. I think sometimes we adults doubt how responsible teens can be when put to the task, if you talk and treat them like children and try to control everything yourself what you get is a bunch of childish acting teens and problems.

I agree with Frank on all except one of his points, "the result would be doomed to failure". Coed scouting is working in other parts of the world, what kind of program they have may be another question. The fact is that the GSA along with Campfire organizations are dying on the vine and struggling to hold on. The BSA is also losing membership and needs to figure out how to reach out to non scout boys, which is what National is in the process of doing. The objections of changing the entire program to accomodate girls however is false, as Venturing has already shown. In my crew the girls can take on any high adventure activities as well as the boys, YPT is not a problem either. On a cub and boy scout level it might be a different story, time would tell,but it could work. I too would prefer to see Boy Scouts stay as it is now but eventually I think it would come down to having to change with the times or face the demise of scouting altogether. It is already too late for Campfire and probably the GSA who could disappear in the next decade, OH NO no more Thin Mints. If a coed program is truly the best way to keep scouting alive, relevant, and growing in our country then I think it would foolish to cast the idea aside as unworkable because it is working in many other countries in the world. As I said in a prior post National is going to be making that decision soon, if they haven't already, and we unit leaders will have to be the ones to make the new program work, not National.

First emb021 just because one small section of the BSA is coed DOES NOT make it a coed organization. Other countries whose scouting program have gone coed seem to be doing just fine and none have collapsed from the integration of girls into their programs. Is it necessary for the BSA to go coed in order to survive through the next century? That is a question that has been and still is being debated by those in control of that change and the opinions of we volunteers will have minimal influence on that decision. Having had experience working for Mazzuca I can tell you from firsthand experience, if it will increase membership and money coming into National he will support it 100%. So while this is indeed a fun debate the sad fact is we will not be involved in making that decision, we will have to though make the new program of National work within our own units without having a say on its creation, thats the real issue.

You guys are really something what do you think it means that "Congress shall pass no law regarding the establishnment of any religion.", and Article XI "no religious test shall EVER be required for any office or area of public trust." ? They knew politics and religion did not mix well and should be kept seperate to prevent the new republic from possibly becoming a potential theocracy. You can interpret it any way you want but they knew 200+ years ago these two institutions for the benefit of the people had to be kept apart. "Pass no law over the establishment of any religion" and "no religious test" means neither would have control or influence over the other. You should have paid better attention in your high school government classes, lol.