BadenP

Gary I understand how you might feel ganged up on right now, however as OGE put it the LDS scouting program has always been that "800 lb gorilla in the room" surrounded in mystery and subject to much curiousity by non LDS scouters. Funny thing is yesterday I had two Mormon young men knock on my door and we had a very interesting chat. They were both Eagle Scouts and we talked about this very topic in some detail, they had some fascinating insights. I encourage you to continue to offer your insights and not let certain comments we may make be taken as personal attacks. It is just disheartening to me that the LDS has this big influence over BSA National while many of the rest of us non LDS scouters seem to feel this big disconnect between us and National.

Gary On paper the LDS may have the most registered youth, however, the reality is that upwards of 40% or more of them are not active or even participating in scouting. My LDS friend is a good example his two boys are registered boy scouts, and he is a registered ASM but he personally, as well as his boys, have no interest in scouting whatsoever so they do not go or participate in any activities. In my experience as a DE the LDS units in my districts were always the smallest, the average being 5-6 active boys for boy scouts and 10-11 in cubs. So what may look good on paper are in reality "ghost scouts", which the LDS stakes pay for year after year so they look good in Salt Lake. My LDS friends tell me that this is a fairly common occurance throughout the country. I am curious to hear your take on this.

(This message has been edited by BadenP)

(This message has been edited by BadenP)

LDS units, at least in the councils I have been affiliated with, are registered by the LDS stake on rosters, taken from the stakes membership files, both youth and adult leaders, not individual app's. The stake then sends in one check to cover all the registration fees. There have been cases where boys have been registered for years and have never shown up for a meeting. It is another difference between LDS and regular scouting.

Bklyn Up to your old games I see. I never claimed to be an expert on the LDS but I have studied their literature ,and been to many of their church functions and have more than a few friends who are LDS, more than you I bet Bklyn. I have not ever demeaned the LDS churchs beliefs, I just disagree how they use scouting for non scouting purposes. Your attempt at humor is weak at best as is your understanding of your own faith, remember I have two graduate degrees in Theology and Religious History, and have been an ordained minister at a fairly large Christian church for over five years now. So yea Bklyn I will put my knowledge about religion against yours any day. So your accusations are as ridiculous as your arguments, both lack any real substance.

Gary I have related my personal experiences with the LDS as both a DE and a scouter, if you don't agree with the hierarchy in your church thats not my problem. I don't see any other LDS scouters jumping in to support your position. I could go into much deeper detail about this issue but will not do so here in an open forum. I know what has been told to me by your church elders, I have read your churches publications on not only scouting but the precepts of your faith, you can dance around all you want saying LDS scouts are the same as all others but you know as well as I that is not entirely true. We both know what goes on behind closed doors at LDS scout meetings, they are not the same as other scout meetings. Now don't get me wrong there are some very good LDS scouters and scouts, just don't tell me LDS scouting is exactly the same because it is not, and BSA National has given you their blessing because of the unique relationship between them and the LDS church.

No one is saying that LDS are not good scouters. Why is there a week at Philmont devoted solely to LDS Scouting, there is a clue? Why does the LDS church have their own scouting publications, outside of National pubs, published by the LDS church used to train adult leaders and youth members? All the political niceness aside it comes down to one thing MONEY. The LDS Church is the largest single contributor to the BSA and because of this have been given special permission to alter the BSA program to accomodate the preparation of their boys for mission and ministry and I challenge any LDS leader to provide evidence to the contrary. As a DE I was personally told this by an LDS stake president and two LDS bishops, and I have a copy of one of the LDS scouting publications stating the exact same thing.

Gary No MISINFORMATION was given out, you can not deny that the LDS's primary use of the scouting program is to prepare their young men for ministry and going on a mission at 18, this was told to me by an LDS president and two bishops, and that in my opinion is a misuse of the scouting program that your church has been allowed to alter to meet these goals. No one ever said an LDS unit is not safe one, so whats your point there. In the case of this LDS ASM the church and the BSA were both liable for allowing this man continue in his position when at least one if not both groups knew of his past.

Hey hotair Your information does not exactly jive with the article from Scouting that infoscouter refers to in his post. I think I will take my information from an official source than an anonymous poster. Thanks infoscouter. I am taking six members from the Venturing crew to visit for a couple of days, we already have accomodations north of Richmond, before we head to some Civil War battlefields and D.C.

acco You are right when you say if another religion made the BSA their youth program, however the reality is that the BSA doesn't fit for most clergy who want their kids trained in the traditions and teachings of their respective faith. Since the LDS has no officially seminary trained clergy they have altered the BSA program to fit educating their boys in their faith, with the blessing of National. Personally I do not like the fact that the LDS is given this leeway when scouting is supposed to be an ecumenical approach to respect the beliefs of all, and that because of MONEY the LDS has the influence they do in the BSA. It seems like a double standard to me, and IMHO weakens the BSA and its program acceptance to many potential groups. This LDS position was also partially responsible for this ASM not being removed much sooner before he did the damage to those boys. I agree that it is high time National takes a long hard look at its relationships with all religious and other organizations, and not let the almighty dollar do their thinking for them. There should be no favoritism or special treatment for ANY specific group within the BSA.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

jhankins If those stats are correct all that proves is that the professional staff in those councils haven't been doing their jobs in recruiting, except for Utah, if a council has more than 30% LDS membership than their are a whole lot of boys there not getting the opportunity to participate in scouting. In spite of what some members in this forum have said in the past, most non LDS parents will not allow their boys join an LDS unit for a lot of very valid reasons. So if your story is true jhankins those SE's and their staffs should all be let go, but in reality I am sure your figures are largely innaccurate.

Thing is Merlyn is correct the BSA was criminally negligent for not having this guy pulled out, even though it is a civil case the incident was indeed criminal, and a heinous crime at that for this guy and the 17 others this ASM molested so it is no wonder the jury awarded such high punitive damages. As far as future cases are concerned, if this one is settled with a high dollar outcome after all the appeals there could be an avalanche of new lawsuits, there are plenty of lawyers willing to go after the BSA. The saddest part of the whole case is that the BSA, unlike the Vatican, isn't sitting on a huge fortune to keep them solvent and it would not take too many similiar cases to put the BSA out of business for good. Who suffers the most are the kids who we train to live by the scout law and become good citizens, what are they to think now. Are we all about to witness the demise of the BSA? I hope not.

Gern & OGE Both of you ought to quit whatever you have been drinking or smoking cuz it shows in your posts. Both of which show almost a total lack of understanding concerning of how our economic and political systems really work. Your sad attempts at humor and misbranding of things that are just not true verifies that.

To quote an old movie line here Gern, "What we have here is a failure to communicate". What I was trying to show in my post was how NASA staying in business creates a widespread boost in our economy by keeping a myriad of companies solvent which allows for company expansion and job creation instead of cuts and downsizing. Maybe companies like GE and others could be allowed to partially invest in these missions which use many of their products anyway, allowing for a joint venture, not totally corporately controlled that benefits both NASA and the GNP of our country. That Gern is Capitalism, not socialism, used for good instead of corporate greed which got us into this economic mess in the first place.

Gern, Gern, Gern, If your hypothesis is correct then we are still in trouble and our economy is still weak and on the brink. We are no longer number one in the world economically, many of our major corporations are treading water to stay afloat and our financial institutions are in a very precarious position thanks in great part to the poor management of the Fed, FreddieMac and Fannie May. Foreclosures are still at record highs and our economy is still losing a great number of jobs as companies downsize to try and weather the storm. We as a country are manufacturing and producing less than fifty years or more years ago. So where is this great savior Capitalism that will save us? The fact is that until we as a country once again start producing tangible things that people here and around the world really desire we will never gain our prior status in the world market economically with real growth and prosperity. The top economists in the world agree that the world economy is still in trouble, look at Greece, Sweden, and Ireland for example, we are not that far behind. Now back to topic, NASA in order to run their program needs to have a myriad of things made for them, rockets, electronic components, all the pieces that make up the shuttles and capsules and many many other related items in technology and science. If our companies are the benefactors of those contracts that brings a lot of money back into our economy and creates new jobs, allows companies to expand instead of downsize. The benefits of space exploration are both immediately benefical, and in the long term could bring us unimaginable rewards. So we as a people have a choice, we can bury our heads in the sand and hope things just get better by some miracle or we can be proactive and become forward thinkers and pull our economy out of the bottomless pit it is currently in.

Man o' man I can not believe there are so many scouters in here who are such prudes. When the weather gets hottt, most camps I have been to boys without their shirts were commonplace and no one got their knickers in a twist. Lighten up people, lol.

NASA has always had on the burner after the moon to go to Mars and eventually beyond, and many good reasons why have already been posted. As the economy gets better we need to keep the program going. As to funding, cut all US Senators and Representatives staffs by 2/3, and their junkets by 2/3, you want to talk about a waste of money there it is. All they do is argue, accomplish very little, and always manage to vote for their own pay raises each year, and waste taxpayers money in the process. I am convinced allowing Asia or Russia, or anyone else to surpass us in the space program will have long lasting negative effects on our economy, political standing in the world, and our countrys safety and freedom.

It depends, does this apathy extend into all troop activities, meetings, campouts, etc., or is this an isolated incident? If it is a one time thing don't sweat it, sometimes things happen. The other question to ask is did this Eagle candidate really use his organizational and planning skills to make sure this was the most opportune date for the troop members? If apathy is prevalent among all your troop functions then maybe you need to look at your program to see if it is meeting the needs and interests of your scouts. Who are making all of the plans the youth or the adults, remember this is supposed to be a boy led program. A little apathy from time to time happens in most units, but a widescale continuing apathetic problem is a red flag signaling deep rooted problems in the troop.

What 24 potties for 70,000 people, yikes, I can't believe that even the BSA was that disorganized. Better bring a big baggie and a spade and find a big tree far away, lol. I hope you got that wrong Ea, otherwise I can see there are gonna be a lot of awfully sick scouts and visitors from the unsanitary conditions.

How about some Cornbread Breakfast Dodgers? You make a dough with most of it being cornmeal, add flour, etc., take some smoked bacon, and a fresh egg. Make a doughball, as big or small as you want, scoop out some of the middle, lay in 2-3 slices of bacon, crack an egg on top, put on the top of dough and cook them like biscuits till they are nice and golden brown. The egg and bacon gets nicely cooked and you have a breakfast both the kids and adults love. MMMMM I can smell em cooking right now. Have a great trip Scoutfish.

Maybe so Beavah, but Canada's national and local programs are not as well organized as ours so they may not have the same problems as the BSA but a weaker National organization is bringing them down. The ideas I presented in my last post plus I think a more dynamic and diverse program and a stronger tie to BP's original ideals and outdoor program are many of the reasons why they are growing, however I would like to hear from our UK members as to why they are acheiving this success.

All you have to do is to look how scouting is done differently, and how the program is more open in the UK versus the US to see why. They don't have any religious organizations in control in the administration of the programs, all phases of scouting are coed, there is no DRP to contend with either, and they don't worry about sexual preferences. Not a great mystery at all really, UK scouting is open to all youth interested, male and female, and all are made to feel welcome. If we really are serious in the BSA growing instead of continuing to shrink we need to look at a similiar approach, otherwise our ranks will continue to diminish over time.

moosetracker If I hurt your feelings in my responses to you I do apologize, anyone who devotes their free time to scouting is okay with me. Mea culpa. Lisabob I am glad you see yourself as the guardian of this site, however since you falsely accused me months ago of being pro rape in the Roman Polanski thread here I now take everything you say as irrelevant and emotional dribble from a woman with a painful past. I truly do feel sorry for you and hope you are getting help with your anger issues.

Barry For the most part I think we are saying the same thing, we just have different opinions on the causes. In the four councils I have been associated with most of the WDL's never took any training beyond Cub Basic for WDL's. Yes there are some great trainings out there but in many councils they offer them every other year and sometimes less than that, the excuse from council is they are not getting enough participants, why do you think that is? Listen, I loved being a WDL for 3 years, and like I said earlier many of my former webelos invited me to participate in their Eagle Court of Honor years later, so I think they had a very positive experience and were well prepared for boy scouts. IMHO the main reason webelos fail to advance is like jhankins said, "WDL's who like to lecture to the kids to hear themselves talk." and like you have and I have said those WDL's who are "Too Busy" to get fully trained so the boys get bored and drop out. Those boys who drop out of boy scouts in the first year,IMO, may be due to the troop program, but more often because they were not adequately prepared and feel out of place in the troop.