BadenP

Eagle92 A DE with a cessna to fly over the district, what kinda salaries is Montanna paying their DE's, lol. Sounds like a scouting legend to me.

I think that online training for a basic subject like YPT is fine, however replacing a five hour specific training with an online version and for no other reason than to make it easier for the leader who is "too busy" and to make it easier to get the charter through is pathetic at best and a disservice to the youth these adults have agreed to lead. I agree with those who say if a leader does not want to take the time to get fully trained for their position then you really don't want them in the first place. The main reason units fail is because of a POOR program and the cause of that are undertrained or untrained adult leadership. The other reason is that some units are so desperate to fill adult positions they will put in any warm body, many of whom give the minimal service and effort to that position. The computer training may be easier time wise and give you greater numbers of "trained" leaders, but the quality of training will not and never will be there. These computer trained leaders may be able to pull off cub scouting, barely, but as far as boy scouting and venturing programs are concerned it is a receipe for trouble and potential disaster.

pack Speaking only for myself, since scouting gave me so much as a youth and a volunteer I thought I could do even more as a scouting pro in bringing scouting to many other youth, and help make the program even better. Then I came to a council went to training at National and within four months suspected something was wrong. Over the next four plus years I saw firsthand the corruption and coverups among the higher ups in the profession. In those five years, after three SE's, I realized after you made SE National would protect you, promote you no matter what kind of performance you turned in. So I tell anyone who asks me about becoming a DE to be very careful, research the heck out of the council you want to join, and make sure they understand that there will be all kinds of untasteful politics to contend with on the professional level.

"I for one do not like it, and will wear my old one until it rots off my back." I think that quote from Captain Iron says it all for most of us in Venturing. I swear what how do those fools at National keep coming up with these stupid ideas one after another and still manage to keep their jobs?? As Ricky Ricardo would say, "Mazzuca, you got some esplaining to do."

The reasons soccer and scouting failed was from inception it was poorly thought out, no long term direction or goals for the program, and it was aimed specifically at Hispanic families most of which scouting has never sucessfully recruited, so it failed miserably. The main reason was National NEVER bothered to ask Hispanic families what would it take to attract them into scouting.

Cap Iron You saw a shirt with sewn on patches? The one at my scout store had the same molded crap as the centinnel BS uniform. I wonder which version is the official one? I know National is using both China and Bangaledesh as manufacturers now.

j hankins A 15,000 sq mile district with one DE I hardly think so, even National is not that dumb or shortsighted. Still you do confirm the long hours and stress on the family. I could tell u stories about my SE's including the one who is now the CSE that would curl your hair and make ur guys seem like pikers. Still with all the enjoyable parts of the job the corruption of the professional side still makes my skin crawl and ensured that I would never return to that profession again. If you ever want to swap stories PM me sometime. YIS

jhankins Just curious, how long ago were you a DE and for how long, and why did you leave the profession??

Brent, That is great, your district sounds like it is thriving. Of course I suspect you southern boys know how to tweak the program just so to get those results, lol. I agree with you that WoodBadge can't be blamed entirely for the downfall of scouting, sorry Kudu, there is a lot of useful information, but I still liked the old WB course better. I still say that is our current techno driven society with its blackberrys, Wii Fii, bluetooth, jawbone, etc. that has taken people even further away from a connection with the outdoors and a appreciation of nature, along with kids and adults texting, tweeting, et. al over 6 hours every day. Where will it end? Technology is great, just as long as it does not disrupt the very fabric of what life is all about.

Eagle2000 Consider this as well before taking the position, if you are married or in a committed relationship this position will take quite a toll on that relationship. As a DE for five years I found out just how many divorced scouting professionals there were out there. The hours are long and the pay short. Being a pro scouter is very different from that of a volunteer, your new focus will be money, new units, money, dealing with a myriad of problems, and oh yeah MONEY. If you get in a great district with a real functioning committee your job will be easier, however my experience was being given two districts that were in dire need of rebuilding and it took over a year just to accomplish that, but I got it done. There were some very rewarding experiences as well. By my fifth year the wife told me enough was enough and I had a choice scouting or her so I resigned from the scouting profession. During my five years I had 3 scout executives at the same council, each one with a different vision and priorities making the job even more difficult to plan long term goals. There were some very good and positive things as well, made some real lifetime friends from the volunteers, we still have a yearly reunion, as staff advisor to the OA got to be an instrumental part in rebuilding a lodge that was down to 5 active members and had done NOTHING in over 10 years, exceeded FOS goals each year, and significantly increased the membership in both districts with the help of some great volunteers. Eagle, my last words of wisdom to you,in spite what you may hear at National training NEVER undervalue your volunteers, if you are open and honest with them at all times they will help you move mountains, thats what they did for me, they were the key to my success.

Barry I have to disagree with you on your points that National really keeps in touch with whats happening in the field, or even truly care, by polling DE's at trainings and volunteers at Philmont, et al. even though you may see that as the case. First no scouting professional, if he truly wants to move up in the organization or even just stay employed is going to tell National that a program or policy they have in force is bad, wrong, or just isn't working. The key to the corporate scouting world is survival, and getting marked as a rebel is a surefire way to insure your career will be limited at best. Second polling scouters at Philmont, etc. is kind of like polling people at Disney World as to if they are having a good time, and what would they change, your answers will be somewhat jaded at best and not truly indicative of what is really wrong. As far as polling councils I think you will find that how they select those key councils and who they talk to in those councils is calculated/slanted to get the answers they want to hear. I can say this because I did work at National for a year and took part in many of these Q&A sessions. I know how they were set up to deliver what the CSE wanted to hear. I know you "love this scouting stuff" Barry but on the National level the BSA is little more than ruthless politics.

sst Both are strongly implied but not directly defined or stated by BP as such.

Kudu From Scouting for Boys by BP - "Those who are scouts now should determine to be better scouts, not only in backwoodsmanship and camping but in sticking to the Law and carrying it out." "Our Scout Law and Promise, when we really put them into practice, take away all occasion for war and strife between nations." Clearly BP realized that there was more to scouting than just camping and adventure but a responsibility and obligation for all scouts to be leaders, setting the example for others to follow and realized the power those scouting principles had in shaping lives and ending conflict between people. If those are not the true marks of leadership I don't know what is. Just some food for thought.

Barry I did not say I agree with Merlyn but I have wondered what would happen to our numbers if the DRP and the gay issue disappeared. As far as WB and National are concerned I do agree they show a real disconnect between the theory and the reality of the scouting program and its membership. There is no denying that boy scouting is shrinking more and more each year, and if this disconnect isn't addressed soon the results will be disasterous.

Kudu, I think you really are putting all your eggs in one basket, leadership skills have always been part of scouting, all the way back to BP's time. The methodology may have been different but the goal was the same. I agree that the current WB training has had more of a negative than positive influence on the scouting program, however SM's can still introduce into their troop program the woodcraft skills of the past along with GPS and geotracking skills of today.

HMMM, according to Kudu and Merlyn all the BSA has to do is get rid of WB, Edge, DRP, and eliminate the ban on homosexuals and the BSA would be thriving instead of declining. A very interesting theory indeed and not without some merit. I for one think the problem is even more deeply rooted, for one a National office out of touch with the very group they wish to attract. For another a select group of adults, found in every council, who are in scouting for their own grandeur instead of wanting to help shape the youth. Thirdly training that really does very little to help volunteers to be well prepared leaders ready to deliver a dynamic program to our youth. I am sure there are even more reasons.

Nicky I am sorry for your loss as well, but I have to ask why do you even care what anyone in this forum has to say in this matter? You have made a choice and the people in your council will be the ones who will be asking you the questions and to who you will have to answer, but I am willing to bet the questions will be few and far between.

Sports vs Scouting has always been a hotly debated issue. The fact is that many youth and their parents see sports as a free ticket to college, then to the pros if the kid is good enough. Even if that is a misperception on the part of the youth and parents it still is their reality and a major reason why scouting will never be able to trump sports.

I don't disagree with you Kudu but the reality is the old WB is never coming back and I for one would like to see boy scouts grow in numbers instead of lamenting the past and putting ALL the blame on just one aspect of scouting. Boy Scouts are on the decline for more than the patrol method, which my old troop and many today still use Hilcourts model, the program has drifted further and further away from its central core of outdoor skills and leadership development to name just two. You may have given up on scouting but I have not.

Look I have taken both the former WB and the current WB courses and I have to agree the former one was much better designed and helpful for a myriad of reasons. However that old course is gone forever, unfortunately, and if it is a choice between taking the current course or not I would tell a scouter to take it. The reasons are these, boy scout numbers and troops are dropping at an alarming rate, National hasn't got a clue how to change this situation, and SM's and ASM's need all the training they can get to stop this decline and deliver a dynamic program to their boys. You need the basic building blocks of knowledge to be competent in your position, WB is one of those blocks. The saying a cup half full is better than no cup at all may be applicable here. WB may not be the same as it once was or as well designed but it is still a vital piece of training, especially for those involved with the boy scout program.

Sports has been around as long as scouts and has always been a large competitor and really isn't to blame for the decline. OGE hit upon some very credible reasons, there is indeed a anti outdoors sentiment found in the youth and the adults of today. You all might be interested to know that visitation to the national, state, and local parks and wilderness areas have also been experiencing a large decline. The post baby boomer generation and their children are looking to other areas of recreation. A poll done in my local area showed these same adults and kids most did not camp or ever been camping, or even own any camping equipment. Many outdoor stores have been closing down as well, GI Joes, REi's profits have continued to spiral downwards for over five years now for example as well as many independent ones. Working with teens on both a professional as well as a volunteer basis for many years I have seen this anti-outdoors trend continue to grow. You can blame the new technology, a shift in our societal social structure, or a new idea of what recreation truly is, indoor skate parks, etc. but there is no denying that a change has and is occuring and unfortunately the BSA is one of the main groups being affected. One last point on Cubs, while they may have been growing the dismal figures on Webelos who actually or sucessfully crossover and stay in boy scouts is appalling, so they are not going to be a real factor in the boy scouts surviving another 100 years.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I gotta agree with OGE here it seems like the parties involved do not seem to understand the difference between what a Venture Patrol and a Venturing Crew really are. This is why there may be the confusion and stubborness among the adult leaders. There is no such thing as a Venture Crew, a Venturing Crew is a coed program for 14-20 year old youth and is totally seperate from a troop. A Venture Patrol is a patrol within a troop made up of the older boys.

Stosh and Kudu I really understand and agree with where you are coming from. IMHO the real guts of boy scouting were taken out in the 1970's and have never been replaced with anything credible or even interesting to teens since. If we are honest with ourselves we have all been witnessing the gradual demise of the Boy Scout program both in number of boys and the number of troops. While Cubs may be growing the rest of the programs are not and this problem is getting critical. From my own observations the troops that are doing well seem to be the ones who have reintroduced some of the pre 1970's ideas back into their troop programs. The rest of them seem to have been reduced to around 10 scouts in their troops. How can you have a dynamic program with less than 10 boys and hold their interest, and these one patrol troops are becoming more and more common. To me it seems we need to look to the wisdom of the past, BP, Hilcourt, if we want to save what boy scouts is truly all about. The pencil pushers and CSE in National obviously have no clue with their paper unit statistics and watered down program changes. The modernization of scouting to me means revisting what worked in the past and reintroducing it to todays program. If we continue on this same path of the last 30 years boy scouts will continue to rapidly diminish in both size and scope.

Look even if National is blind and dumb enough to try to end unsupervised patrol camping it won't change anything. The GSS are guidelines, as the title states, not the law, and are interpreted many different ways, as seen in this forum. The boys can still go as a group of friends, practice scout skills, pass requirements, and not worry about all the bureaucratic nonsense from National.

I agree that scouters can still teach the outdoor skills to the boys and should emphasis those skills over the rest, IMHO. I think some problem may arise with the new generation of scoutmasters who may not be as comfortable or knowledgeable with the outdoors and who work in the the technology field. They may feel much more at ease with computers, science, and maybe GPS over outdoor skills of how to be self reliant in the wilderness. There are a couple of troops in my area where I know this is the case, when they go camping it is more car/trailer camping than anything else. It makes me wonder if this truly is the future of scouting? I hope not.