madkins007

My rule in training was "If you are going to INSIST on a full uniform, ASSIST with uniforming".

Offer a used uniform bank. Offer Scouts a chance to do a fundraiser that they can use for uniforming (for example, we often did not press for FULL uniform until after the New Year, plenty of time for them to earn enough.)

Consider doing little things- in our Cub Pack, the pack owned the neckerchiefs. In fact, they were pre-sewn in a mostly rolled position, and kept at the meeting place (or taken to events). They were numbered, so we knew who used which one. Each one also had a history behind it (this Cub won the Pinewood in '97, this Cub became an Eagle in '99, etc. Oddly enough, each had a special history- gee!)

One local unit sponsered a 'uniform recylcing program' (it had a really cute name I cannot think of!)- they paid a bounty on any useable uniforms or parts turned in to them, and they 'rented' uniforms and parts out. People would find things at garage sales or thrift shops so they had a nice little supply. They would get washed, old insignia removed, pressed, and hung up neatly for later rental. I believe that something like 90% of their unit was in used uniforms. Thinking about it- this would make a sweet service project for a unit to offer to a district!

Make up your own mind about things like uniform pants. In our pack, the private school uniform slacks were the EXACT color and cut of the official uniform. There was no way on Earth I was going to authorize pulling pants down to check the labels, so we had an excellent full uniform compliance rate... except that the Scouts really hated that their Scout uniforms and school uniforms were so alike AND we were meeting in the school again!

Inspections: We simplified the process- after the first few full inspections, we started doing spot inspections- neckerchief, pen, and book; current rank, belt, and pants; things like that. It went a lot faster and actually seemed to work better. We also often asked for a demo of some rank-appropriate skill (knot, patrol call, first aid step, track ID, etc.)

Of course- we also offered immediate rewards for people passing our checkpoints- usually things like gum, ice cream pops, special beads or other wearables. One time it was a small plastic statuette of an old-time Scout I got from Oriental Trading Company (lots of great handouts there!) Another time it was a quarter.

Is there any evidence that the newer 'simplified' First Class being attained in the first 12-18 months keeps Scouts longer than the older, harder First Class that often took 2-3 years used to?

I would heartily support a retraining program... just as soon as we finish up getting 100% of the leaders trained the first time! ;-)

Interesting question...

In these times of declining membership, changing definitions of childhood, fewer volunteers putting in less time, smaller donations, etc., which kind of youth group will survive- those that change to reflect the current times or those that try to reflect the heyday of their movement?

You can find examples of both situations- and we must not forget that the BSA almost killed itself back in the dread 70's upheavals trying to 'modernize' the program.

Still... some Scouting literature used to state that a Cub unit could reasonably expect to enroll about 1 out of 4 eligible youth. Now, we are serving something like (263,469 Tiger Cubs in 2003, out of 2,109,868 eligible boys in 2000 [i could not find stats for the same years]). We are now serving about 1 in 9 or 10 boys with drop out rates of about 50% by Boy Scouts.

As things are right now, I think the BSA has shifted from a 'in the midst of our culture' group to a more outskirts organization. People today seem to know less about us than ever- unless, of course, something has kicked the name up in the media- usually bad stuff. (sigh).

It will be interesting to watch this phase of our evolution unfold!

Were I doing it again, I would...

Assign each new den the lowesst unused numeral and let them keep it as they move up. If I HAD to 'blend' dens for some reason later, the lowest numeral of the two would remain.

Use the offical flags as one den flag, then encourage each den to create a den-made flag with a 'den nickname' and/or mascot- ideally based on a Jungle Book or Ernest Thomas Seton animal or a variation of the den number (with CM and DL veto powers).

A flag making workshop sounds like a great idea! They can always make the flag more permanent (or cleaner) later if necessary.

I'd probably bring out a big old tub of basic supplies, and encourage each DL to discuss and preplan the event at den meetings. (Whether or not you'd want each den to bring supplies or not would be a coin flip, I think).

Obviously, you're gonna want to stay with the various washable craft glues and other supplies that won't leave permanent markings on the kids or campsite, but other than that, no specific ideas.

Absolutely- 'rebrand' it. Companies do it because it works. Shake off the bad connotations and start from scratch- you pretty much are anyway!

As for your e-mail... I am not sure it would notivate ME the way you are hoping for. In fact, it might well cause me to subtly step even further away. It seems to promise a lot of hard work for an unsure return.

I think I would send something more along the lines of....

"Greetings fellow Scouters!

We are starting planning for an ALL-NEW CUB CAMP experience to roll out in 2006. New ideas, new programs, new management, and new opportunities!

We know you have some ideas that would make next year's camp an exciting event and we want to hear them! Reply to this e-mail, call me at 123-4567, or see me at the next Roundtable (7:00 pm, Thursday, Flebuary 40th, at St. Ed's) to let me know what you think.

With everyone's ideas and creative energy, this is going to be a great camp! If you want to share in the fun, we can always use more enthusiastic people. Contact me."

Besides this, I'd try to set up a booth at Roundtable(s), Pow-Wow, etc. High-energy booth with balloons and things to do if possible. Handouts are always good! Try to get blurbs read at every training session or district/council-level Cub event you can. Take out ads in the council newsletter, etc.

To many people, removing hats during a flag ceremony is just proper respect. They don't know the nuances and exceptions but it is generally good form to obey the campmaster.

Superlightweight gear...

Backpack- have you seen the superlight Tyvek backpacks? You can make your own from Tyvek house wrap (ask at a building site for leftovers). The stuff is nearly indestructable and nice and lihgt. Makes great groundcloths, too. A bit stiff for ponchos, etc.

Use sturdy plastic bags (I wonder if the new ForceFlex from Glad would be good?) to line your backpack with so your pack itself is the fiorst line of weather and abrasion protection, and the 'liner bag' is the second defense.

Wine box bladders make good water carriers- tough, light, reliable- if you can finangle the spout off and back on again! Cliff Jacobsen (author of several camping and canoeing books) suggests sewing a webbing strap to the 'waste' part of the bladder for carrying.

Consider, depending on location, forgoing a tent and trying a hammock with a fly suspended over it. A 'tube' of skeeter net can be used in buggy places. OR a home-made lightweight poncho rigged up as a temporary shelter with a lightweight sleeping bag inside.

Cliff J. also has several 'superlightweight' first-aid kit ideas. You really should check out his books- super stuff in them!

2.2oz silicone-treated rip-stop nylon. The stuff is great for super lightweight gear! You can make a 'pyramid'-style tent with one tarp and a ground cloth with another, and the two bundle up to a double fist-size ball. Also makes great fly, poncho, sleeping bag shell, etc. Available from www.owfinc.com (GREAT source for outdoor fabrics!)

Found it! The quiz is "Beyond Tue and False' by Robert Anton Wilson, published in "The Fringes of Reason- A Whole Earth Catalog"

OK- old questions:

1. Shakespear wrote 'Hamlet'.

2. Geoge W. Bush wrote 'Hamlet'.

3. Jesus was the son of God.

4. When you let go of a hammer, it will fall down.

Answers:

1. Probably true with what we know now.

2. Possibility that he wrote something about the play or something called 'Hamlet' at some time.

3. Would be called a 'rule of the game'. It is a given to one group- the set of people 'playing' the 'game' of Christianity. (Please do not be offended by the word choice here- I am just trying to paraphrase the much longer article!)

4. As mentioned, ONLY applies if other conditions are met- gravity field, nothing supporting or hindering it, etc.

Some new questions from the quiz include:

5. pq=qp

6. There is a planet in our solar system outside of Pluto's and/or Neptune's orbits

7. Colorless green ideas sleep furiously

8. Charlie Manson was responsible for several murders

9. A court found Charlie Manson responsible for several murders

10. The following sentence is false

11. The previous sentence is true

The quiz and accompanying articles discuss 'true' and 'false', and related issues by pointing out that there are many other options. Rather than just true or false, a question or point may be meaningless, incomplete, depend on a different logic or value system, depend on knowledge not shared by others, flawed in some way, or more.

With that in mind, the answers to the last questions are:

5. Not according to Hamiltonian or 'non-cumulative' algebra (which means absolutely nothing to me!)

6. In the last issue of Popular Science, they mention SEVERAL planets out that-away! If you did not know that, the question would seem true to you.

7. Is obviously meaningless... however it demonstrates a point in the science of Linguistics, so could be considered true in a limited way.

8. Would be considered 'legally' true, since he was found guilty, but is unknown since we don't necessarily have all the information.

9. Is true unless you believe there is a vast conspiracy out there to rewrite history.

10. Is incomplete as written and needs more data, such as the next statement.

11. By itself is incomplete, but coupled with #10 creates what has been called 'a Strange Loop', sorta like the classic Star Trek 'I, Mudd' bit ('everything I say is a lie').

re: concerns about co-ed camping. In my experience, simply requiring that the girls sleep a bit apart from the boys and are chaperoned by adequate numbers of female leaders/adults provides one big layer of protection. A strong activity program provides another.

re: Girl Scouts. If they are offering a strong equivilant program, then girls would not want to join the BSA in the first place and we would not be having this discussion. Not dissing the GSUSA, just pointing out that they are not meeting the same needs that the BSA would be able to.

The BSA's Vision Statement is (cut and pasted from the national website):

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

* Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;

* Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

* Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;

* Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

Our current co-ed program serves 288,395 youth in the US- less than 1/10th of the 3,200,218 youth enrolled. Are we coming close to fulfilling our vision by only having Venture co-ed?

I saw a great quiz about truth in a book one time. Some of the questions were (which statements are 'true'?)

1. Shakespear wrote 'Hamlet'.

2. Geoge W. Bush wrote 'Hamlet'.

3. Jesus was the son of God.

4. When you let go of a hammer, it will fall down.

There were others, but thse are the ones I recall.

(I'll post more questions and the book's answers later!)

I believe that "Personal Growth" is one of the most misunderstood. In some of our units, we have lost the idea that Scouting is supposed to be challenging, and instead have made it too easy.

The discussion over First Class First Year, for example, hints that we might have made First Class, formerly a quite challenging rank, easy enough that it can be a realistic goal in the first year. Many units and summer camps make merit badges into more of a 'class attendance award'.

I have seen and heard of many examples of leaders and adults going above and beyond in helping Scouts to the extent that there is no challenge any longer. Certainly, it is a leader's job to ensure that there is a safety net, but when adults do the food buying, popcorn sales, campsite selction, and so forth, there is not a lot of opportunity left for personal growth.

I think the uniform is one of the more over-emphasised. I am not sure we need to be quite so obsessive on a National level to accomplish our goals. I strongly believe that a simplified shirt/insignia and simple dress code for the waist down would accomplish everything at least as well.

It would seem that many of your shake down activities would be beneficial to the Scouts not going to camp- new flags, clean gear, etc.

I think the key is to think of the activities as TROOP activities, rather than 'pre-camp' things. Heck, if it is TOO focused on summer camp, even some of the kids going might get a bit tired of it.

You can also try solar cooking. There are literally hundreds of sites about it at many levels of complexity, from a pretty basic box/reflector set-up to some pretty cool parabolic mirror things!

Scoutldr- I had almost the exact same experience! I could not believe the quality of some of our district's hallowed heads when it comes to training. Apparently, a group of them that had done this for years took some sort of pleasure from somewhat abusing the attendees- critiqueing uniforms, asking trick or leading questions, etc.

I never asked them back, even though I got several calls from a few asking to help.

Kristi- if you had a name or something at the various councils it would help. We've got to have some idea of who to approach or else the question will just get lost in everything else they have going on there.

Talk to other den leaders, attend Pow-Wow or University of Scouting, search for books on camp/outdoor activities at local stores (bigger religious bookstores often have a section for summer camp staff or youth groups)...

Mostly, just let your love and enthusiasm show through. Stuff that fits your style will click with you and each new idea will probably spawn others.

Eamon- thanks- I did indeed fail to do a search for this topic- which is especially odd since I thought of it while doing another search on something else.

I don't know why I thought this would be a relativly 'safe' topic, but I never thought it wold get 'heated'- but I see by FScouter's bumped threads that it indeed did.

Thanks, FScouter for bumping them for me!

Why Velcro for CSP, etc? That stuff does not change often enough to justify the nuisance. Maybe Badge Magic instead?

Or, I met a guy once who had carefully sewn small snaps all over his uniform. He could reconfigure it for any of his positions in a few minutes. Cool trick, but I shudder at all the sewing he did!

Mark Ray, in his book "The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook" mentions several ideas I wonder about and would like to see some discussion on.

This idea is that a patrols should maybe be 10-12 boys instead of 6-8.

His basic reasoning is that it could help ensure that patrols can retain their identity more easily this way since it improves the odds that enough boys will show up at meetings and events to work as an actual patrol.

He conceeds that it might be a bit big if everyone shows, and that it might need a couple of APLS to coordinate, but otherwise it makes some sense.

What do others here think about it?

While REQUIRING uniforms MIGHT make the price go down (only true of membership does not go down as well), you can also drop the price by reducing product lines. If Every Scout- Cub, Boy, Venture, and Adult were in the same uniform, National would save money by being able to eliminate several product lines, and produce more of the remaining items.

Not necessarily arguing for that, just pointing out an option.

Acco touches on one of my big issues concerning gay or atheistic youth- that they are not yet set in stone and are experimenting with their lives.

I feel that by barring them from Scouts on the basis of a few words, we are not fulfilling some of our goals of helping create men of character. Why not offer them friendship, structure, adventure, and challenges instead? Show them faith and/or nonsexual male bonding in action.

MANY youth go through rebellious and experimental phases, and I can't help but think that barring a kid in such a phase helps make that label stick just a little more tightly.

I would suggest retraining when changing positions, or when a new training process or program is available.

Otherwise, I'd encourage participation in Roundtable, University of Scouting/Pow-Wow, Woodbadge, Philmont Training Center, and other on-going training options. Personally, I try to encourage 100% participation in Pow-Wow, and at least a couple RTs a year.

Doesn't totally fix the problem, but it helps, and most people are more likely to attend it than to be 'retrained'.

Most of us have been hurt by some foolish thing outside of our control like this and I'm sure we all feel for you and your son.

I don't have anything really to offer, but was sorta wondering how hard it would be to get a list of attendees or at least councils represented. I don't have any idea how many this might include, but it might be a starting point- especially as I'd bet the other 24 families would help as well (if you can get their info as well).

If anyone from my council was there, I'd sure be willing to ask on your behalf.