Liz

Let's just say we stop playing games. If there's something improper going on, you haven't said what it is. There is nothing in the rules that say women must be married in order to attend a Boy Scout camp-out. GaHillBilly is right; it sounds like you're just upset that you weren't asked. Or maybe you have an issue with a woman along on the camp-out because you personally can't keep your head out of the gutter. I'm starting to smell a troll.

So? If they are exhibiting behavior that is contrary to the Guide to Safe Scouting, that's an issue. The visitor being female is not, by itself, a cause for concern. Is the lady behaving inappropriately toward the boys? Is there inappropriate behavior going on in front of the boys between the SM and his visitor? If she's got her own tent and not causing problems, I still don't see what the issue is. Perhaps you could clarify a little bit about what, specifically, is causing you concern. -Liz

We have someone who functioned as troop bugler for a while. That person is now ASPL, and not currently functioning in the bugler role, but when he was doing bugling regularly he opened some of our CoHs with some music. I kind of liked it. Both of my sons play trumpet, but neither one is interested in learning the bugle calls. -Liz

I can certainly see good reasons why waiting a couple of weeks for a CoH might not be as beneficial as giving out a rank badge immediately. On the other hand, I think our system is by far much better than the previous troop I was involved in, where everyone waited for the quarterly CoH, and it didn't matter how long you went between earning the rank and receiving it. I suppose what we have now is such a big improvement, I hadn't really thought too much before about what might be done to make it better. As I said earlier, as the troop grows I don't think our system will continue to work as well. What would you think about the BoR members awarding a boy his rank patch or pin right then and there after the BoR? Usually at CoH, we award both a rank pin and a rank patch; the boys wear the pin until they get around to sewing the new patch on their uniform (or their moms do, or whatever). Then the pin is just a keepsake. A discussion of of that tradition probably belongs on the Uniform board, but it might make sense to award the pin at the BoR, and the patch at the next CoH, or vice versa.(This message has been edited by liz)

BW, The boys never have to wait very long after earning their rank to receive them at a CoH. I guess I didn't explain it very well. We hold CoH as needed. Occasionally one might be put off for a couple of weeks IF we don't have much to hand out (only little things like SFF segments or whatever) AND there are boys who, if the CoH is put off a little while, will have a significant award like a MB or a rank advancement. We have CoH's fairly often -- I'd say we average one every 2 months. We have a lot of them in the spring, when newly crossed over Webelos are advancing fairly quickly, and we always have one after summer camp, when lots of kids have things they've earned. In the fall, we have them a little less frequently because there are fewer things being earned. CoH are done on an "as needed" basis, and I don't think any boys generally have to wait more than a week or two to receive their major things like rank advancements. When we have boys getting close, we'll schedule the CoH, and then set up BoR days where we'll have a board sit down with each advancing boy. The CoH is usually the following week, or at most, two weeks later. We don't have a very large troop, maybe 20 active boys total. Perhaps that's why this method works well for us. I can see how a larger troop would have more boys advancing at different times; ours tend to advance in clusters. We're only going into our 3rd year as a troop, and we grow every year with incoming Webelos Scouts. I expect by this time next year our CoH-as-needed method might not work as well. But for now, it gets all the boys honored in a timely fashion. I can certainly see how giving out rank advancements at weekly troop meetings has an advantage. I have not been on the Council for the troop since the first year we formed, but I most likely will be again next year. It's a method I will certainly keep in mind for when I'm in a position to be helping with policy making. At the troop my older son was in before we formed this one, CoHs were only held every 3 months, and it was very common for kids to wait several weeks for their badges, and most of the time they ended up getting their Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, & 1st Class rank badges all at once. I didn't like that at all. -Liz

Interesting discussion... We only give rank badges at CoH, but we don't have set times for the CoH. When a fair number of boys are ready to advance, or we start getting a backlog of merit badges to award, we schedule a CoH. Sometimes, if we have several Scouts who are *almost* to the next level, but we haven't had quite enough time to conduct all the BoRs or something, we'll even postpone a CoH for a week or two in order to make sure none of the boys have to wait too long for their rank advancements. Regardless of whether the Scout has received his current rank badge or not, once the BoR is over, the Scout is "eligible" to participate in activities befitting his earned rank, be nominated for OA, etc. I don't think we ever have the problem of Scouts moving through ranks so they get two at once except in situations such as a Scout earning most of his 1st Class requirements done before he finishes his 2nd Class ones -- causing him to maybe be in 2nd Class for only a couple of weeks or less. Our CoHs are almost always scheduled for the same time and place as our regular Troop Meetings, so except for additional set-up and such for the CoH ceremony, it doesn't require us to know months in advance exactly when they're going to be held. I don't imagine this system would work for a lot of troops (and it's not how it was done in the troop we were previously involved in) but it does work well for us. -Liz

I like the suggestions people have given for giving him a very specific task as ASM. Children who struggle with Asperger's often (but not always) mature out of the behavioral problems. Many that I have known are no more than a little socially awkward as adults, even though they were quite out of control as children and teens (some of my friends have been dx'd with Asperger's as adults, but were only labeled as "problem children" when they were young). Since this young man is improving, it's reasonable to think that he may make a perfectly fine adult leader at some point -- but he should be transitioned into this gradually and with a great deal of care. One question that has been asked, but not answered I don't think, is: how long has it been since this young man has demonstrated poor judgment in reacting to a perceived insult? When was did the snowball incident happen? When was the last time you saw him shove a boy or start hurling insults in response to a little friendly banter? If the answer is "within the last year," I would say this boy needs to NOT be in a leadership position directly working with youth YET. "Super Quartermaster" might be fine if he can understand that he has some special rules. If it were me, I'd sit down and talk with the young man about this plan, and just tell him straight up: We know you have some challenges that other boys don't have. We feel that you need a little extra maturing time before you are in an adult leadership position over the boys. In the meantime, we could really use your help with collecting money from the popcorn sales, sending out newsletters to the families, and inventorying the equipment. On campouts, we're going to ask that you stick close to the adult camp and resist the temptation to step in and take over for the SPL, just like the rest of us have to do -- you're not a youth anymore and the role is very different from when you were. If he responded well and understood this, I'd figure I had a new ASM. Just my $0.02. :-) -Liz

Well, that's annoying, isn't it? Bleh. My younger boy was in a den with a couple kids who were small for their age (they're still small, and they're a few years past cub scouts now!!). I remember how much they swam in their oversized blue shirts. I don't think they every fully grew into them, and my son was the only one in the den who ever switched to a tan uniform during Webelos (because he was the only one who ever outgrew his blue shirt, and I couldn't justify buying him a blue shirt for the last 6 months of cubs!!). Probably the best solution, then, is to just buy the cub-scout "dress" and hope he goes through a growth spurt sooner rather than later.

From the Scoutstuff.org sizing chart: "If you do not see a size in the chart that works for you, keep in mind that our uniforms are also available "Made-to-Measure". Please contact our Customer Service Department at 1-800-323-0736 for more information." If I ever get a uniform, that's what I'll have to do. I'm, well, let's just say I'm shaped in such a way that I can't button a Scout shirt up without it hanging off my shoulders in a ridiculously baggy way. This is one of a couple reasons I opt for the troop t-shirt instead of a uniform. (edited to fix a typo)(This message has been edited by Liz)

No, I think it translates directly to "United States of America." You could probably also translate it to, "United States belonging to America" but that would be weird. ;-) "De America" (Spanish) means "of America," while "Mexicanos" is an adjective meaning "Mexican" -- so when it's translated into English, it's moved to the standard English location of adjectives (before the noun it modifies). Disclaimer: I could be misapplying this since I don't speak Portuguese and I know virtually nothing about Brazil, except that their official language is Portuguese, which I do not speak; not Spanish, which I barely speak. For what it's worth, in my limited experience in limited parts of Mexico, I've usually heard the USA referred to as "Estados Unidos de Norte America." (United States of North America). It's interesting that different groups will vary in what they call things. I don't know what Latin Americans call Canada, or how they differentiate U.S. Americans from Canadian Americans, or whether anybody in Latin America ever really thinks too much about the fact that Mexico is a North American country, too... or whether they're more identified with Central/South America because of their common language and somewhat more common history (when contrasted to U.S. and Canadian history). -Liz (Don't mind me, I'm just being a picky language freak!) =)

It sounds like what they really need is some TALL sizes in the new Scout shirts... I'm not sure exactly where you go to suggest such a thing, though.

"I just can't see a camp director today trying to justify having someone effectively "stand around" without a scheduled class to teach, from a budgetary standpoint. That mindset doesn't exist anymore. " These kinds of MB sessions are popular among the boys in our Troop, at least. Leatherwork, Basketweaving, Fingerprinting, and some others are offered this way at some of our area camps. They end up being some of the most popular MBs that our boys earn. I've never hung out at one of these stations long enough to see whether they're popular with the other troops, but our boys not only earn the MBs, they talk them up, show each other their accomplishments, and encourage the younger scouts who are hanging around during free time to "Go do the Fingerprinting -- I did it last year and it was fun!" -Liz

"you should view it as his choice" Oh, I do... believe me. If I didn't, he'd have had it done a year ago! I can't help but feel frustrated, but I limit myself to reminding him once in a while. ("I know, Mom... I'll do it. Just not NOW.") Thanks for the welcome! -Liz

Ok, I've been participating in the forum for a week or two, so I thought I'd swing by here and offer an introduction. My involvement with Scouting began in 2001, when my boys first joined Cub Scouts. My older boy is now a Star Scout, and my younger one has been stuck at 1st class for a year because he has a report to write for Citizenship in the Community which is too booooring to do, apparently, as are most of the other Eagle-required MB's. *sigh* He's literally one MB requirement away from earning Star. Unless, of course, he's misplaced his blue card, in which case he'll have to start over. Won't that be fun? Ok, enough griping about the Lazy One. ;-) Anyway... I have been fairly active off and on in our Troop since we formed it when my younger son's Webelos den crossed over. I started out as a Committee Member, took some time out to work on my degree (I graduate in December!!), and now I'm counseling my first Merit Badge. I'm taking a group of interested boys through the Railroading requirements, and helping them with extra fundraising so we can go on an Amtrak trip. Whee!! So, that's me in a nutshell. It's good to be here! -Liz

I know my boys do not have all of their blue cards. My older son started in one troop, and then changed when my younger son's den crossed over and started a new troop closer to our home. In both troops, the boys have been told to hold on to their books (with advancement signatures) and the little cards they were presented with along with the MB's. They've been really good about that. They didn't find out they were supposed to keep the blue cards until recently. It's been drilled into them that the little printed MB cards and the signatures in their handbooks were the "proof" that they might need someday at Council in case Council messed up their records (which our Council does have a reputation for doing -- I don't know whether that reputation is earned or not, but it's there). What would you do if your boy were in this situation, with few or no blue cards? They're only 1st Class & Star level at this point, but they've got lots and lots of elective merit badges. The troop continues to emphasize the importance of book & printed cards, and I've never once heard anything about having to keep blue card stubs after they've been completed turned in (my boys have both been burned by bringing home partial cards and having to start the MB's over because they didn't bother to keep track of the partials). -Liz

Ditto ASM59! My boys spend an incredible amount of time on Facebook. My son has a cool link on his Facebook page to an Order of the Arrow video someone posted on YouTube (it's called "iSash"). I insist that my kids keep me as a "friend" on Facebook so I can keep track of who their friends are (and I've even asked them to take down certain content I felt was questionable or could be misinterpreted). Most of my career has been in the computer and Internet industry, so I realize I'm a little different from most parents and Scouters, but I really don't know any more effective way to keep in touch with what Youth are doing other than to dive in and be where they are -- and that's on the Internet!! -Liz

I think I have one of those garters!! I've been wondering what on earth it was. It came in a box of belt buckles, neckerchief slides, and the like, which I got on eBay. If memory serves, the color on it is red. I will dig through my desk drawer when I get home and see if I can find it. -Liz

That's a good point. I might be willing to sit down with them at the start of the summer and help them figure out how to accommodate those with wheat or gluten issues. The nice thing is that anything they do to remove gluten from a kid's menu would also work for anybody with a wheat allergy -- so it kills two birds with one stone. BUT -- I am concerned about their ability to avoid cross-contamination as well. In your example, I would guess that Sysco ham would be somewhat questionable, and I would be absolutely floored if the scalloped potatoes didn't contain wheat. I can eat baked potatoes and bring my own pasta and sauce (which don't require refrigeration), but whether they can be cooked in a way that doesn't contaminate them is another issue. They are saying now that Celiac Disease affects about 1 in 150 people in the U.S., although diagnosis is just starting to catch up. At a camp the size of this one, that means at least 4 or 5 campers each week (including adults and Scouts) probably suffer from CD... and as awareness grows and diagnosis becomes more common, more and more of them will know it and need accommodation. So I think I will contact the camp again and volunteer to meet with the head cook at the start of the summer. I have a friend with C.D. who is also a nurse... maybe if I brought her along that would help, too. I think her son is a boy scout, too (although he's not C.D.) -Liz

Ok, so I thought I'd try the "spin-off" button since the peanut-allergy thread caught my attention. I wasn't sure whether to put this in Camping or Summer Camp, since it applies to both. I would really like to hear ideas about how different troops handle special diets -- from food allergies to diabetes -- when camping with their troops. I'll start with my specific situation, but I am extremely interested in hearing about others' experiences, whether similar or different from mine. In our troop, we have at least two adult leaders who are sensitive to wheat and one (me) who is sensitive to gluten. At various times we have also had boys who have been allergic to milk. During the cub scout years one of my boys had a fellow cub in his den who couldn't eat anything that came from cows -- neither dairy nor beef. Based on family history, my younger son's counselor has suggested a gluten-free diet for him to see if it alleviates some ADD-like symptoms. I don't know whether to hope that it solves all his problems, or to hope that after his 6-month trial is over he goes back to a regular diet. It's easy enough for me to take along my own food for short-term camping trips, (and it's no big deal at home because my mom and sister are also acutely gluten-intolerant) but it's much harder to know how to handle it at summer camp. Before my son went GF, I asked one of the camp directors at one of our local Scout camps whether I could bring my RV (and therefore my kitchen) to summer camp (parking it in the parking lot) so I could provide my own food (this is a mess-hall style camp). I wasn't told "no" but I was assured that all I had to do was talk to the kitchen staff and they'd accommodate my diet; but I don't see how it's possible knowing that they buy everything off the truck in cans from Sysco. As with a nut allergy, almost the only way to eat gluten-free is to avoid processed foods all together... and unprocessed foods don't keep well without refrigeration, hence my desire to bring my own kitchen to camp. I become completely useless as a leader if I get one contaminated meal and have to spend the rest of the week in the KYBO. It becomes even more important if my son is still GF by the time summer camp rolls around, even though his symptoms aren't as severe as mine... this is the camp our troop is going to next summer. I could cook meals (possibly for myself AND the other adult leaders who have to avoid wheat) and bring them to the mess hall so we could eat with the boys, but I've seen that kitchen and I don't believe for a moment that they could provide me with anything I could live on for the week. (Part of what complicates things for me is that I ALSO have other food allergies, so even the idea of sitting down with a camp chef and trying to explain what I can and can't eat and how hit can and can't be prepared is really daunting). LIZ

Beavah wrote: "If the issue is all yeh people with dirty minds think the man is havin' sex before marriage, " For me, I don't care whether they had sex in that cabin, or anyplace else, or not. (Unless, of course, they were noisy and the kids heard it, which would be a whole other discussion, I think). But, as ASM59 put it, my problem is with "even the appearance of impropriety" among BSA staff. As for the example of chaste co-ed roommates, I don't think that applies to this situation at all because we're talking about an engaged couple. I don't make assumptions about every engaged couple, but if they can't stand to follow the rules and sleep apart on a Boy Scout event, then does anybody really believe that they're just being "thrifty?" By, what, not having to buy two sleeping bags? And as long as we're talking about assumptions, why are so many assuming that all the boys are assuming the couple is married? The OP obviously knew that they weren't, or we wouldn't be talking about it. Srisom -- was it common knowledge or not? That might effect how much this incident may or not have impacted the program; although the issue of whether our Boy Scout Staff should be expected to follow, at a minimum, Boy Scout Rules still applies. -Liz

There is some irony in the fact that an unmarried adult leader who has a sexual relationship with another consenting adult unmarried adult leader would get kicked out of adult leadership if the two adults are the same gender, but a MARRIED adult leader who has a similar relationship with an opposite-gender leader who is not his/her spouse is not breaking any written and documented rules and there's nothing BSA can say about it. Although I understand the concept put forth by the Boy Scouts that, as a society which places a high value on "reverence" in a society where most of the religious institutions officially disapprove of homosexuality, well, frankly a much larger majority of people (especially religious but most non-religious as well) in this country strongly frown on adultery as immoral. Why are our volunteers not expected to remain "morally straight" in heterosexual relationships? I know that if this were my boys' troop, if I felt that the boys were getting wind of this going on, we'd be changing troops if we couldn't get the offending individual removed. On the other hand, in most states, adultery isn't even enough to be considered "fault" in a divorce settlement anymore, and it's certainly not illegal.

How do you suggest explaining it to the cub scouts later when they hear about or even get invited to the wedding? And why is it that we're all assuming that the cub scouts don't know the marital status of the pair involved? I don't recall the OP ever answering that question, or did I miss it? I would find it surprising if the cub scouts are not aware that their adult leaders are not *engaged.* That seems strange to me. And most cub scouts will have some idea that *engaged* is not *married.* But, even IF the cub scouts are under the false assumption that the couple is married, I do not think that it lets them off the hook for not following the scout guidelines. Nobody is knocking on their doors at home to make sure that nobody's spending the night in the wrong house. But at a function where youth are present, they need to have enough self-control to sleep apart, simply because, yes, those are the rules. I would not call for this guy's resignation, necessarily, but if it were me I would be asking the Council to talk to him and remind him that he needs to abide by the BSA rules when he is at BSA functions with BSA youth present. -Liz

I know I'm late to this thread, but I'll be honest -- I have 2 boys in OA and I wash their sashes in the washing machine along with their scout uniforms after every OA camping event. I can't stand to see them dirty. I have not had any trouble with running red (I was worried the first time I washed my older boy's first sash, but not after that). I have also not had any trouble with the red unraveling. I also put them in the dryer. Cold or Warm water... cold if they're not TOO dirty. Stain-remover (whatever is on sale at the moment) if the dirt is really ground in. I always inspect the sashes when they come out of the washer, before putting them into the dryer, to avoid setting the stains in. I have even been known to re-wash them with a little bleach if they didn't come clean the first time. The red has not faded at all. When they come out of the dryer, I roll them up neatly into a little cylinder shape for the boys to put away until next time. I love seeing the boys put on their uniforms and their OA sashes, all crisp and clean. Part of me would like to make them clean them, but I'm just OCD enough to want to do it myself and make sure I get it right.

Thanks, SSScout! It was an interesting thread. It's good to know I'm not the only one out there who thinks about these issues. -Liz

I'd be willing to bet that SOME of the cubs noticed, and were confused by it. It may be the 21st century, but I think there are a fair number of families who are still teaching values based on religious training, etc. Personally, I would be HORRIFIED if unmarried adult leaders shared sleeping quarters on a Scout event that my boys were on. It's not as if my boys don't know this kind of stuff happens... but the idea that a couple who is supposed to be modeling self-control and leadership skills just HAS to ignore the rules and can't even control themselves for a weekend or a week on a Scout outing? If it happened in my unit, you can bet I'd be making a stink about it. I have my boys in Scouts (at least partially) so they can have the best of the best role models active in their lives. Not so they can learn that it's ok to fudge the rules. Every rule one sets for kids will most likely get blurred by most kids. That's why you set and model the HIGHEST standards... so when the kids "approach" the standard, they're doing pretty well. Like someone else said... this "Leader" was "almost" married because he was engaged... so next the Boy Scout is "almost" engaged because he's dating, and then the next one is "almost" dating because, darn, he was able to talk that cute venture scout into his tent, right? Lines are drawn for a reason, and once you blur them, you might as well erase them entirely. -Liz