littlebillie

slontwovvy, "Catholics were Christians. In fact, they still are Christians. " Yes, I know. And actually, so are Mormons. I notice you leave them out of your response - which is part of the point. Regardless. I've heard SOOO many Christian kids say they're against Catholicism because Catholics "believe in the Pope and not Jesus". If you're not aware that there's a division of faith and principle there, please accept that there is (otherwise, just for example, there would not have been so much commentary thereon re: Kennedy's Presidency). And it was this division that was t

"I remain puzzled by littlebillie and others within scouting who would open the doors to atheists. Why does BSA exist? " Well, from the perspective of the faithful, if the BSA, by exposing atheist youth to faith, could save even one soul, or re-affirm one wavering believer, isn't that worth the doing? Kids at risk - aren't these some of the ones would would most benefit from the program? How can one say, "let's turn our collective back on these kids"? Even if all we end up with is a more ethical atheist - well, that's a step in a better direction, too.

What is this Christians-against-the-rest-of-the-world tone that's just arisen? Can I get some clarification here? It's a little scary. What about Jewish, Hindu and Moslem Scouts - and Americans? Where do you see Catholics and Mormons in your Christian cry to arms? As I say - scary. I do want to make one clarification pending a response to that, tho' - "There are many but few: Atheists, Agnostics, ACLU, NOW, Gay/Lesbian organizations that would like nothing better than to see the BSA disappear." ACTUALLY - many would just like to see the BSA open its doors a little wider, rather

'let me see if I have all this straight. we all know what Establishment means, and we all know where Separation/etc. comes from. (We do, ya know.) Balogna.' No, I don't think so. the 'we' to whom I refer are the regular participants HERE, who for the most DO in fact recognize that it's Esablishment in the Constitution and Separation elsewhere. We've ALL hit the books on that one at different times, and it's been trotted out here iteratively and at length. Had I meant "the American people", I would have chosen other words - perhaps "the American people". :-) (and YES - I totally

right now, we have larger social fringes - those extremes on a bell curve that go off into the distance - so that there is more of an audience - in terms of absolute numbers - than ever before in our history. Numbers + money = incentive to milk that market, and if you're just looking to be a known wacko, you gotta do ever more insane things to make the wacko cut. BUT don't judge the big bulge in the middle of the bell by the fringe - there's more there, too. But being non-fringe, they just don't play look-at-me-monkey as much. Even so, they are there, that silent majority. So -

let me see if I have all this straight. we all know what Establishment means, and we all know where Separation/etc. comes from. (We do, ya know.) Nevertheless, we get a long harangue about not attributing to the Constitution that which is not there, which itself asserts 'Jefferson declared: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty [especially Religious Liberty], and the Pursuit of Happiness [Private Property]." ' So I'm not sure if we've bee

please note that littlebillie earned HIS Eagle back in the 60's. please also note that I invite all thoughts AND I'm really interested in what Bob's are.

So is the thought that the BSA is going to be ok with the message that a boy's priest is ok to guide his religious live, but is not a fit leader for the BSA? That doesn't seem a very clear message, especially for those issues where the SM is advised to encourage the boy to talk to parents and religious leaders..?

wouldn't that be the Epsicopal acceptance of gay leadership, that "something contrary to the values of the BSA"? Similarly, would the presence of a gay priest affect a church's ability to become a CO? I think the waters are a-muddyin'...

(I doubt that this is the first time THAT'S been used as a title!) Anyway. With the current tempest in the Episcopal tea-pot, what might possibly happen concerning the associated religious insignia and the Scout uniform? Would the presence of a gay bishop, in and of itself, be seen any differently than the UU position? The news I'm seeing reads like the odds are on confirmation, so this is a arguably a bit more than idle what-if... thanks for any thoughts you can share.

Well, I am just FLUBBERgasted!

Fred MacMurray, right?

"I find more than a little irony in seeing a publication of the LDS church vehemently defending the sanctity of one-man-one-woman marriage given their history of promoting both polygamy and child marriage, which I do NOT find acceptable in any way, shape or form, hetero- or homo-, serial or otherwise." Seriously? Wouldn't the same train of thought invalidate ANY efforts of the US gov't against slavery in the world today, based on our own earlier history? Mainstream LDS IS monogamous, despite the continued activism of splinter groups and hold-outs. But if any present belief is invalidat

ummmm - since nothing new's getting said on the subject, let's all just consider that I've restated my position as well. there - that saved a LOT of typing!

Hey, all. You know, all Merlyn is doing is trying to make sure that everybody plays by the rules of the game - i.e., the Constitution. And even some of his loudest detractors have, over time, gudgingly granted that he is on firm legal ground - even though they resent it, and question his real motives. Some of those same folk also say the pink and atheist sympathizers should go out and form their own Scouts since they can't play by the Scouts' rules. I'm just curious - has ANYone ever considered trying to promote a Constitutional amendment? One that would change the big set of

this was a land of many nations BEFORE the Europeans got here - the OP just didn't have quite the same idea of border or sovereignty as the newcomers...

maybe you'd consider introducing the boy to the idea of Deism as held by many of the founding fathers..? there'd be both a certain historical American relevance as well as a demystification that he might find appealing - and, it could well represent one of the purest uses of the word "God" in Scouting. food for thought, thought for feud!

Even if you COULD decide which is theoretically more difficult, then you have the whole issue of individual differences. Some boys are going to have a much tougher time with swimming or whatever, than others. I am not conversant with the GSUSA requirements, but I'd have to guess the same thought applies. So once y'all finish talking this around the lake and even if you DO end up deciding this horse has more teeth than that one - then someone's gotta go look in the horse's mouth, which would probably be getting a bunch of kids together to work on BOTH badges regardless of gender or organ

In that latest atheist/Eagle flap, wasn't the kid asked if he couldn't just acknowledge nature or something greater that himself in some kind of semantic plea bargain? regardless, I've always said that Scouting can be of great value to the kids who are beginning to have crises of faith - consider these as high-risk kids that really need the gentle undercurrent of abiding faith so many Scouting units can offer. (I say so many instead of all because some church-CO'd units can be a little monothematic and even strident, but even these have their place.) SO - if Scouting can offer itsel

Bob, not even the [devout][straight] boys for whom the organization was enchartered? interesting point...

"People have the right to be homosexual if they want. That is their perogative. They do not have the right to be a Scouter under the BSA policies." oy. sometimes it may be a choice. sometimes it may not be - frankly, the verdict ain't in on THAT one! BUT. before even going down that path, the last line should really be "They do not have the right to be a Scouter under the BSA policies if they avow themselves as such."

Are the auditors just for the specific CO/church, or are they operating under some larger umbrella? ie, is it just, say, the First Generic Church's auditors, or is it some group that's auditing all Generic churches in the area, First through Tenth? If the latter, and any of the others are COs as well, are they ALL doing it that way? How does it work for THEM? But if there's no pattern to it, or it's just the one church's own auditors, then you really need to find out why they want to commingle funds this way. How would long-term purchase goals be handled? If you're saving up to buy a

"But the state has no more right to pry into an how an organization exercises its First Amendment right to association than it would to require a religious test before issuing a drivers' license." should probably read "... the state has no more right to pry into an how a PRIVATE organization exercises its First Amendment". I think this reflects the legalities more accurately. AS LONG AS THE STATE does not apply any pressure to participate in the annual United Way campaign, officially or UNofficially (the de facto pressure can be huge when departments are quota'd at 90% participation

's funny. i doubt that I've seen anyone here in person - i just know you all to whatever extent that I do through your posts. and so of course the total of your posts becomes everything I associate with your Username. i feel that most of the folks who post here are people of conscience, who feel strongly about important issues affecting not just Scouts but youth - indeed, society - at large. and whether or not i agree with what's said by whomever, most of y'all have my respect and some have my appreciation. i guess i'm not here long enough to know many of the id's mentioned but i

"That would be like them saying you have the freedom of religion, but only Catholics may apply for a driver's license." Actually, it seems more like saying that there's freedom of religion, just don't apply for a driver's license in a Catholic church... It's really the result of a couple of different trends slamming together. First is, the evolving use of zero tolerance policies as a way to avoid numerous legal problems; second would be the increasingly complex civil relation among the individual, the state and the nation. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the Episco