Lisabob

OK we had a couple of guys attend my son's troop meeting last night to promote jambo. I have to revise my previous statement about the video. I thought we were talking about the promo video from the jambo homepage, showing real boys doing all sorts of real cool activities. The video our presenters showed instead (with the cartoons scouts?) was lame. The boys all thought it must've been made by someone who was a teen in the 80s or 90s and was trying to act like he "gets" today's kids, without quite pulling it off. The price tag scared off most folks, particularly considering that the next payment of $400 is due in less than 3 weeks and this presentation was the first intro to what jambo is for most folks. But, my son is going and he was happily telling everyone who would listen how cool it is going to be!

I love it when we all agree... Did I mention that it sounds like you are handling this difficult situation really well? All of the boys are lucky to have you as a mentor and role model. Keep it up!

I haven't commented much til now but I've been following the discussion and I think you've gotten a lot of good input. I also want to commend you for keeping a cool head and always keeping what's good for the boys firmly in mind. What you describe in your last post does put a different twist on things. And you're right that sometimes boys who are friends can say things to each other in jest that, put in any other context, would be utterly unacceptable. But I want to ask you to think about the dynamic a little differently. Often in a setting where there is only one minority member (or a very small group), that person really has little choice about how they respond to "off" comments. They want to fit in, be accepted, have friends in the group. They are likely the only ones to be offended, but they may learn very well how to hide it, roll with it, and joke about it. Sometimes this is a good life lesson. Sometimes, though, it puts them in the uncomfortable position of having to laugh off comments that are pretty offensive to them, and it may also put them constantly on guard, perhaps without them even quite realizing it. From the other side of the coin, people who have very little interaction with other minorities except for this one individual, might have no idea that their casual and regular actions/teasing are offensive. Until, that is, they start behaving the exact same way to other minorities whom they do not know as well. Thus, they may find themselves in trouble down the road when they say something to someone else, that Joseph would have just laughed off/responded to with a witty or stinging retort. The other person might respond quite differently. At that point, the person making the comment is often unable to understand why they get such a different response, and they get angry at the person they offended rather than recognizing their own inappropriate behavior for what it is. The point is, these boys may be learning a really bad habit here, one that Joseph feels ill-suited to challenge (being the only minority in the group and wanting to fit in), but one that is going to get them in a heap of trouble in the wider world. The fact that Joseph was so uneasy that he was thinking about quitting, and yet that he came to you and told you about this instead, is telling here. This suggests that perhaps he's not happy about having to frequently roll with the off-hand comments but that nothing has risen to a level that he felt he could truly bring to your attention, until now. And yes, it is "big" of him to cut these kids some slack, but it is very "little" of them to continue doing it and assuming that it is not bothering him much. So I think you still need to come down fairly hard on this. You do not want these guys to develop, or continue to develop, a habit of off-hand racist comments. You also do not want to continue to put Joseph in a position where, as the only minority, he either has to roll with it or be ostracized. That's damaging to both parties. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

DeanRx, I dunno about all that for cubs. I was an archery range master for our cub day camp for a few years. The only required training was a one-day BSA shooting sports training. It did not require me to know a darn thing about archery, by the way. It was really more a safety training than a skill training. That was about 5 years ago but I don't think the requirement has drastically changed since then. Now I went out of my way to seek additional info and advising (informal training I suppose) , but to run a cub archery range at day camp, that was not in any way required. Perhaps the rules are different for resident camp, and I know that they are more stringent for Boy Scout camp ranges, but those are also different kettles of fish than a cub day camp archery range. I will agree that the ranges were most kids' favorite day camp experiences, and a heck of a lot of fun to work at too!

I don't want to get side tracked here. I agree that scouting is a great value for the money it costs! I agree that times change, costs increase, and probably many packs have felt the need to increase dues! I am not criticizing any pack for either charging a lot or charging nothing, or where ever you are in the middle. I am merely asking whether people are hearing/seeing evidence that the current economic downturn (c'mon, we've got 9+ % unemployment where I live and it is quite likely to top 10% soon - nationally, new jobless claims last week were the highest in 26 years - things really are tough for a lot of folks!) is causing ripples, or whether it might actually push some folks back toward scouting! From what people have posted so far, it sounds like maybe there's a lot of the latter going on.

We're very lucky. The fellow that runs the biggest newspaper in our county/district is also a past district chair and big supporter of scouting.

Stosh, let's be fair here. Running a program does cost at least a little money! There are many extras that can be forgone, true, but at least in some places, economics really is an issue. Maybe the up-side to this is, as wingnut says, that scouting (and especially CUB scouting) is the cheaper program alternative. Maybe too, scouting's traditional, family-focused values, will seem more important to people in tough times and they'll gravitate toward us. I do see this as sort of a marketing opportunity for us. On the other hand, I was sort of surprised by the number of posters in the pack dues thread who said their pack dues are $80-$100/year. That's not a lot in one way, but it is not chump change either, for a family with a couple of kids and parents who are suddenly out of work. I seem to remember a similar thread just a couple of years back where hardly anybody was above $50/year.

I've been thinking about how the lousy economy has impacted cub scout packs this year, and I wondered what folks are seeing in other parts of the country? Around here (MI) we just got told this week that our state has been in a recession for somewhere between 5-7 years, with no end in sight and a high probability of things getting a lot worse, due to the auto industry mess. That's not news to many of us up here but it still isn't fun to have the doom and gloom confirmed. Many packs have said this has hurt their recruitment and retention efforts, especially this year, and there's more worry about pricing struggling families out of scouting. On the flip side...this year our new cub scout recruitment is UP district-wide, higher than in any of the last 3 years. What does that say about where people choose to spend their money and what activities they'll pay for in tough times, I wonder? Or is it a fluke, or is it due to something other than the economy? (We did do a fairly aggressive spring/summer district scout promotion campaign too.) So, what's the situation where you are? Any packs lowering their dues? Are there more cub scholarship requests or hits on the uniform box in your pack? Or is this actually a strange sort of boom time for cub scouting as a good and relatively cheaper alternative?

There are occasionally boys who say that they want a particular POR, but that POR is either not open, or that POR would be a really bad match for the boy in question at the time. In the latter case, I can imagine people actively dissuading a boy from taking on a particular POR. More broadly: What about a situation where a boy has recently demonstrated poor judgment and behavior, but demands a POR anyway, right now, despite his clearly demonstrated lack of responsibility, maturity, leadership, trustworthiness, etc.. Under those circumstances, is the SM within his rights to deny a boy a POR?

That's fabulous, gwd. Keep us posted, will you?

Most 6/7 year olds who use that sort of language learned it either at home or on the school bus. I'd make sure I let the kid's parents know that he was heard using objectionable language and ask them to ensure that he understands why that's not appropriate. Sometimes, especially if he is the oldest or an only child, young parents don't realize just how much their little ones are picking up from them!

I've seen what Guy describes (both ways) too, and I agree that you want to include the boys as much as possible in the actual race. This may mean finding ways to get each boy's car to race multiple times even if they lose every race. It might mean you give out some off-beat certificates for things like best scout design or coolest paint job or whatever, that are not related to speed. We had one kid in our pack who, every year, created a car in the shape of a cartoon character. He had a blast, though his cars were often slow. It isn't just about winning the race. You might also want to consider offering a couple of "pit days" where you have some folks who know how to use tools available (with tools) to assist families who don't have, or don't know how to use, those tools. We had a lot of single moms who had no idea where to start helping their sons. Or at least, you might suggest that your den leaders consider doing this at one of their upcoming den meetings. Barry's right about events like this sometimes bringing out the worst in some adults. Be forewarned and figure out what you are willing to do to try and avoid this. Contrary to Barry, I found that having a clear (but reasonably simple) set of rules helped reduce this sort of thing. Most districts have a set of rules for their district derby - you might want to just adopt those. Regardless, whatever rules you have, be sure everyone knows them well in advance. After a particularly bad year with some out-of-control parents we started giving out a sportsmanship trophy, which became one of the most coveted. We told everybody that we'd take into account not only the boys' behavior, but also their parents' behavior in determining the winner. That helped a lot. We also asked some boy scouts (neutral folks) to come to our race and help determine the winners of various non-speed awards. Last thing - this race - building the cars, racing the cars, the whole thing - should be about two things: bringing families together and having fun. Encourage parents to LET THE KIDS PLAY WITH THE CARS when the race is over. I can't tell you how many irate parents I've seen, snatching the car out of junior's hands, because he might damage the paint job or something, causing junior to cry and ruining his fond memory of the race. Heck, they're boys with toy cars! Let them zoom the cars around on the floor after the race, etc, if that's what they want to do.

Most often I have found that a lot of older teens know that what they are saying is offensive, but they might not know what it actually means or why it offends, and so they don't really "get it." A little history lesson can put things in perspective and sometimes will wake a kid up to just how deeply insulting his off-handed comment actually was. You might get a response like "wow, I really didn't mean to suggest...xyz. I won't ever say that again, I'm sorry." Anyway that has worked for me on occasion. Of course it depends a bit on what was said too. That might help if the boys are basically good kids from families that don't promote racism. On the other hand, if they're typically mouthy and uncaring brats with racist parents, well then good luck (but I'd wonder how they got to Life and what one is doing as your SPL in that case). In addition to all that John suggested, I would also say that those two older scouts now bear a heavier burden to make Joseph feel that he is indeed welcome. Make this clear to them and ask them how they're going to accomplish this. Don't provide them with easy answers - make THEM squirm a bit while they think this through. Sometimes part of being a leader is recognizing when you've failed, and figuring out how to start to make amends. That's a valuable lesson for your SPL too.

What about asking your instructor to help you plan a fun activity that incorporates the skill in question. I've noticed that, when seeds are planted, some scouts are willing to do all kinds of leg work to gather info on fun activities. For example if he's working with scouts this month on lashings, ask him to help put together plans for some sort of gateway for the next CoH or find plans to build a trebuchet or something. He'll probably hit the internet and come back with a fistful of good knots and lashings activities that can then form the basis for his instructional sessions. But yeah, some scouts are going to require more guided assistance in terms of lesson planning. That's tough stuff to figure out on their own for your typical teenager.

Yes this is all very helpful, and thanks! I'm curious - why a duffle/foot locker as opposed to a pack? He has lived out of his pack before at summer camp so I must be missing something here.

I know some summer camps make 1st Aid a pre-req for EP. I wonder if that's not crowd control as much as anything else?

Well we're still in the early stages of things here in my council, but it sounds as if my son's application to attend jambo has been accepted. (In fact I was told, unofficially, that everybody who turned in the app and the $100 is in. No official notification at this point though.) Unofficially, the cost is pegged at about $1900 to include transportation and attendance. What I'd like to know is, what additional costs are typically incurred? The other night I got told that "we'll make sure people are informed of costs before the next payment is due." That's about the best I seem to be able to worm out of folks! I'm trying to budget this and the lack of info is making that really hard. So, can anyone help me with this: Setting aside the potential for council contingent-organized day trips in the Wash DC area, what other additional costs are reasonable to expect, beyond the base cost of attendance/transportation? I imagine a scout would need two full uniforms (does it need to be the newest centennial uni? Will that be changing again in the next 18 months?). I imagine they'd want some spending money, though I don't know what's reasonable (what is there to buy? Is it stuff that can mostly be purchased anywhere, or is it unique to jambo? Do any activities at jambo cost extra?). What else should I add in to our tentative budget? Thanks for your input!

Sctdad, A quick google search turned up all sorts of maze sites. Here are a couple that seem worth while. This one has printable mazes on a wide variety of themes, could be fun for pre-meeting if you just want pencil and paper mazes. http://www.printactivities.com/Mazes.html This one is a bit more of a discussion than an exact "how to" but I like it anyway, especially the fact that these are SHORT mazes. You could probably replicate some of this fellow's mini logic mazes (esp. the "no left turns" maze) with relative ease in a pack meeting situation. http://www.logicmazes.com/walkthru.html

Sctdad I admit I haven't seen the program helps so I don't know if this fits or not. But, it sounds like a great opportunity to do some low-level orienteering with the kids! Another fun twist (that can be done indoors) is to set up either places or people as "stations" and provide written or verbal clues to the first station (which can be different) for each group. Once they figure out the first station, they get the clue to the next one. You can make the clues easier for Tiger dens, harder for Webelos, etc.. In the spirit of mazes, the entry could be your meeting place and the exit could be somewhere else (or I suppose it could be your meeting place again, once everyone is off and running), perhaps with juice and cookies waiting (or cobbler...) if your pack does that. If you're looking for other activities, you could set up a course and require the boys to navigate it blindfolded, with a partner to tell them when to turn, go back, stop, etc. Make it trickier if you want by requiring the boy and partner to communicate non-verbally (ex: provide a triangle or something and one ding means turn left, two means turn right, three means stop, etc.) Board games....shutes and ladders is a maze game of sorts but it might be a bit "young" for some boys.

With respect John, I do not think a sharply pointed question from an SM of one troop, to the CC of another troop, in a public meeting like RT, is in order at all. Praise in public, punish(criticize) in private. If gwd were to feel the need to talk with some other troop about their program - and really I'm not sure that would work out well anyway as it would probably raise all sorts of defensive hackles - she's probably better off doing it one on one. "Hey, I heard from a parent that there's a boy in your troop who is really struggling to get to 1st Cl..." might go better than "What the heck are you people doing to this poor kid?!" And maybe the UC (if there is one) for the other unit should be approached as well as, or in substitution to, the CC. No matter whether that other unit is doing things right or wrong, I think a public criticism from out of the blue would be seen very much as sticking one's nose into other people's business. In the meantime though, nothing wrong with the boy being invited to visit again by friends from school who happen also to be in your troop.

Thanks for alerting us to this, Missing Arrow. I voted, apparently in the nick of time too. Many of the stories of others on the list were also inspiring (and Randy Pausch's "Last Lecture" is really worth paying attention to as well imho) but I can't say that any really topped the boy scouts, in that here we had children stepping up and being heroes. That's hard enough for adults! Whether they are selected or not, those boys really exemplified what it means to be a scout.

mike, what you write could describe my council too. We're just starting on recruitment. Currently the adults associated with our council's jambo troops are making visits to all of the troops in each district to do presentations. I also think it would be great if there were a few boys (young men by now) who had attended the last Jambo and who would go visit troops to talk up their experiences from the youth side of things. I don't know how this will work out for a lot of folks? But thinking about the people I know who might potentially be interested, I can imagine a lot of process, safety, and cost questions from parents. So I'd also like to see split presentations where youth talk to youth and the adult leaders address the parents. As for the jambo video - one or two runs through that was all it took to get my son excited. It's a good starting point, though notably short on any sort of detail for the uninitiated.

I mean this as no slight to Beavah, but I think it is also worth noting that he has never said in public on this forum that he is a lawyer, at least not to my knowledge. I appreciate Beavah's thoughtful perspective most of the time (even when I disagree) but let's be careful not to infer too much from others' posts.

Wow, that's nuts (unless there's some other aspect to their unwillingness to accept him that we don't know?). Maybe recommend to this fellow that he consider becoming a unit commissioner. From the sound of it, he is already kind of doing what a great UC would do, keeping tabs to see that things are working out for "his" scouts and doing whatever he can to help them. The UC job isn't so different, though it focuses on units and not so much on individual scouts. And I think if I were you, I'd quietly approach the CC and COR about their apparent brush-off of this guy as well. They may just not have thought about how they were coming across. OR I suppose they could have some other, underlying reason for not wanting his help in particular.

Our troop's policies have been that any ASM and any scout ranked Star, Life, or Eagle can sign off on the T-2-1 requirements. Only ASMs can sign off on higher rank requirements, and only the SM can sign off on SM conferences for Eagle. ASM Parents and higher-ranked siblings are strongly discouraged from signing their family members' books. This works ok if everyone is on the same page in terms of expectations and standards. It does not work well when there is a lack of communication or shared understanding of those standards. It also does not work well when you have adults with weak basic skills, or with some boys who may have attained rank but who lack the maturity to take sign-offs for lower ranks seriously. On the flip side, in larger troops, there needs to be some kind of delegation because otherwise the SM gets overwhelmed. Consequently I think it might be better to take a more fluid approach such as the one asm411 indicates with his 1st class "Doc" scout. But that also means more work figuring out who is allowed to sign off on which skills.