kahits

My troop is in New Mexico, and the boys are wanting to consider an out of council camp, for next summer. Because we are blessed with cooler (high mountain) summer weather at our local camp, I think the weather is a consideration for them. I have heard some good things about camps in Colorado, but would appreciate some insight for the camps that are in Colorado. I realize this is too wide open of a question, but we would be going for the ususal summer program, primarily to work on MB's and have fun. Thanks,

Very interesting discussion... We have a situation with our single patrol troop of mostly 13 to 15 year old boys. We have 2 packs that will potentially bring many crossover scouts to our troop, but not for a while. There is one Webelos II's in each of these packs, and I am trying to devise a method to reach out to them to invite them to do things with the troop. Being a single WebelosII in a pack can't be that fun for them, and I am sure they would appreciate the opportunity. Part of our challenge is that we have some HS freshmen who joined the troop in the spring and are still new to the program (they are friends of another boy who joined 2 years ago). They have no settled down in troop meetings to the level of the other boys, my son included, who have been there two years or more. I plan to send most of them to NYLT, next June, but right now, I'm not convinced a 5th grader would find this small troop the kind of place they can aspire to be a part of. I'm probably being a little pessimistic, but we need to get our boys all on the same page, to successfully recruit Webelos into our ranks. But, right now, I'm trying to understand which kinds of troop activities are best for them to experience, and what needs to wait until they choose to joing the troop. Any suggestions would be appreciated. (I know this might be off the subject, but I didn't want to make a new post.)

Thanks, Jambo... You have responded a few times to this thread, and I apologize for not responding to your good, experienced advice, before. The suggestions you offered previous to this last post of yours were good, but not what my committee would support, nor our church, which is now just providing us a space without any type of sponsorship responsibility. I wish that were different, but it is the reality that I have come to understand when I accepted the responsibility to help keep the troop going. I guess that is the reason I didn't respond before.

This last post is much more compelling, because I think it deserves a seperate thread for the rest of the board to comment on. I agree with you about the issues you raised, in speaking of how the program can possibly survive when ideal opportunities like the World centennial Jamboree goes unmentioned. I helped find a scout to go from our council on a full sponsorship (He just got back), and it was an experience that only he will have, because it won't get the kind of coverage that it deserves.

Time magazine just came out with an issue (Aug. 6, 07) with the cover topic: The myth about boys, Experts say boys are in trouble. Here's why they've got it wrong. That title got my attention, especially with a photo of a pre or early teen boy in shorts, obviously playing in the mud. I was very disappointed (as if I ever thought Time magazine would do something not to disappoint me!) that this feature article culminated in talking about boys getting out to summer camps, doing pretty much everything a Boy Scout would do, but with only a slight reference to Baden-Powell, they ended up featuring a private summer camp that basically replicates the BSA program, without any of the core structure. I think that boys still are in trouble for all the reasons this article attemps to say is not true, yet there was never going to be any mention of what the BSA program has and continues to do. I think your comments are right on the money.

As for the idea of us moving to another, nearby troop, I think it might eventually happen, but it will be after my son and I have gone, and taking down a 75 year old Boy Scout troop will be someone elses burden to witness. I believe we have some core aspects to our troop (other then a lack of scouts) that are much better then the two adjacent troops, but that is not to say it won't happen after I am gone, along with my son. Thanks again for that paragraph, even if it paints a gloomy truth in this 21st Century world we live in. I think what we all do as adult volunteers to keep Scouting alive in our hearts and for our kids (my daughter loves her Venture Crew) is why I am here, and even it it ends up being just a personal experience for my family, I won't worry. But I know the program can't survive if it never gets a fair shake and only the mishaps in scouting get featured in the media.

Thanks for that simple advice. We have a core group of 5-6 scouts, of which 2 are new and in need of training. They are both HS Freshmen, so they are old enough to step up, but are a tad confused on how much fun should really happen and when to get serious. We, also, have a large, potential, group of boys coming our way from 2 different packs, but that won't happen if we can't get the older boys to leave the standup at home and push themselves to get serious. NYLT can't come fast enough, next summer, but they have some ranks to earn in the meantime. The higher ranking, more experienced boys (my son included) are doing very well (Enjoying OA, and one went to Philmont this summer), so we have some work to do to get these older, fresh troops with the program. Fun and boy led is definitely the key. Thanks for the reminder.

Wallace.

I think this is a great topic of discussion. Being relatively new to my son's troop, I realized they had run out of the custom, triangle neckerchiefs they had been using, and the last handful of scouts to join the troop were not issued any. As a part of my taking over the SM position, I proposed the committee look into going back to a square neckerchief, after getting the okay from my DE. Having found Chief Neckerchiefs via the internet, I asked them what the largest, square neckerchief they could make. After months of discussion, we went with a 33" (51" diagonal) square neckerchief, with an edge binding that extends 3" (Yellow neckerchief with red binding) on the ends so it could be tied as in a good turn knot. There is no way it can be worn under the collar and I have instructed all of the scouts and leaders to wear it over. One of our ASM's is an old school scouter, who still wears (and fits his youth uniform from the 70's) had a lengthy discussion about where you roll or stuff it, and we decided to stuff it, unrolled, thru the turks head woggle.

One of our boys went to Philmont on a council contingent, and his father had to tell me that his neckerchief made the rest of the boys look pretty dismal in the way they wore theirs tucked under the collar, the day they all left. We wore them to camp, last month, and even though our troop is small at the moment, you could see our handful of boys coming for dinner flags a mile away (well maybe not a mile). With our troop 70th anniversary coming up in January (Jan. 1938), this will be a great addition to our renewal as we continue to rebuild this very old troop, that almost died before my son and myself showed up to keep it going. My hat is off to the work that Chief neckerchiefs did to make these wonderful additions to our troop uniform. They make a great product.

Thanks, CP... I see this as a more long term committment, but have my son and daughter's troop and crew to work with as well. I'm stepping down as Crew advisor this month, but the troop is going to be key in making any kind of contribution to the chapter. I'm very encouraged by these opportunities, and of course keeping it all in proper perspective with the boys making it happen. I'll definitely be posting questions from time to time, in this part of the forum. Thanks, again.

Thank you for that great response, CP. I have been talking with my DE, who is Comanche, about all of this and what you just said supports what he has been telling me from the very beginning. He really needs to just make a seperate outfit that he can use for ceremonies and dancing. Of course my wife, who is Omaha, doesn't want him wearing any of his outfit for OA, so maybe this is what needs to happen. Our chapter is Cheyenne, so there are many similarities that would lend him to using just about anything he choses to. I have been asked to attend OA NCLS later this month in Bloomington, for the lodge, and I was going to ask these questions, but I think that might be a waste of time, considering your very thoughtful response to my questions. Thank you for that.

As for the chapter, there is currently no dance team, but they do put something together with some of the other chapters at Conclave. It was that group that asked him to come back in the spring to dance with them. I showed his bustle at an organizational meeting we had in the Southern part of our district, and one of the leaders thought it was made from turkey feathers (it's actually from an immature bald eagle), so maybe we can just call it that. If he is going to dance in the spring, he will have a hard enough time making a ceremonial outfit (he likes the idea of making a buckskin warrior shirt to go with his elk leggings, and the rest that can transfer over (my wife won't be there.) from his current regalia. As for the drumming, I am hoping to help form a chapter drum group, which does not exist right now, of OA scouts. At conclave it was only adults who were doing the drumming, and that should change, if the boys are interested. I'm going to start with the boys in my troop, since most of them will be in OA by next year. One of them is an accomplished drummer and I need to find a way to get him excited about that, along with being a more focused patrol leader. I also have an 18' tipi that I would like to make accessible for the chapter to use, for special meetings and outings. Our chapter has been running on a lower level of excitment for several years, and other then the ceremonies, and low meeting attendance, there has not been alot to keep them engaged, hence alot of boys have dropped out. At Conclave, I talked with some of the other chapter members in the lodge, and found a great willingness to help, and to learn as well. My son is very excited about being an ordeal OA member and this sure sounds like adventure to me, for any boy who wants to get into it. As I learned with my daughters venture crew, it's not about what I want, but what they can get excited about and decide for themselves.

I'll be there in whatever capacity I can, but for now I have 4 drumstick kits to put together, and the drum is in the kitchen. Did you know there is a Comanche flag song that was given to OA to use as their own? I have it on CD (from my DE), and it will be the first song they learn. Our next few troop campouts are going to get a little more interesting, in the very least. Thank you, again, for the well written response to my questions. I'm impressed with what OA can do to keep a boy in scouting, and the opportunities it can provide. Of course, my 12 year old son just loves his sash.(This message has been edited by kahits)

Having finally figured out what exactly it was that was whispered in my ear at the Spring conclave, I'm becoming more familiar with OA. My son and I did complete our Ordeal's in May, and he has some questions (or I should say we both have questions)? Since he already has dance regalia (we are Sioux, and he dances Northern traditional) that he uses on a regular basis, it may not be appropriate to assume this would be a viable part of any dancing he did thru his chapter. He is interested in creating his own ceremonial outfit/regalia, but has a question there as well. I know there is a prohibition of OA scouts wearing eagle feathers, but does that apply to an enrolled tribal member, if the feathers for their bustle was legally aquired thru the eagle depository? I have been told he might want to just make his own junk bustle out of immatation feathers, but why not use his regular bustle. Also, since he has, in the past, carried different hand weapons in his dancing, can he use a firearm for ceremonies and/or dances if it is unloaded? The rifle is a Model 1892 Winchester in an obsolete caliber that was given to me by a friend. It doesn't have much use otherwise, but I thought I would ask. I don't know if any of this is written down anywhere, but I thought I would ask. At some point, I will have an opportunity to do more with the chapter (drumming in particular), but for now, he and I have been talking about what he might do once he gets his brotherhood, and these questions came to mind. I'm just curious what your responses may be on these questions.

Thanks, Emb... my comment on his knotzies is that it seemed ironic that he would say something has to be taken off, when he has the uniform with no room for the world scouting emblem. I have a picture of Roy Williams with just two awards on his uniform, which I found inspiring from my observation. It's up to each individual, but his comment just struck me as ringing hollow. That is all I meant by that comment.

I just got back from taking the troop to our local council camp, last week. Since my son and myself went thru ordeal a month earlier, we brought our sashes. They did plan to have a crackerbarrel for OA members on Wednesday night. Earlier in the week I was trying to encourage our camp SPL (he is a HS Junior/Life scout, but no longer camps with the troop, but does attend meetings when he can) to get his brotherhood. By Tuesday, he was ready to do it, and managed to get the required signatures, including mine. Wednesday came and at the campfire that night he stepped up for Induction, along with 2 scouts and 2 adults. We waited for them to return at the dining hall for the crackerbarrel, which they finally did after 10pm. It was a great experience for him (I think his parents were particularly pleased when he got back.) and I hope this renews his committment to the troop, which we can certainly use from him.

At the Friday night campfire, they began with 3 OA dancers who came out and danced to one song. My son already dances (I am Dakota/Lakota and my wife is Omaha) and wants to bring his regalia to camp next summer to help out these dancers. He (and I) will be brotherhood by then. Just having an opportunity to dance for him is reason enough to spend time up at camp.

I have 2 years left on my National Camp School certificate. I was told by a scouter that when that certificate expires, I will have to remove that patch from my uniform. One of our ASM's still wears his from when he was a youth, and ran a Scout camp with the NCS training. It's ironic, because the guy who told me this has about 15 knots on his uniform, some of which go back probably 15-20 years in his scouter career. He looks silly with all that on his uniform, but he obviously likes having it when he choses to wear that particular uniform. I thought I would ask here.

I see there is already a discussion on shortening these pants, but my problem is the opposite. I am more a 36" inseam (I'm a 2XL waist in these pants), and fit the regular, green cotton uniform pants, because they came unfinished and were long enough for me with a minimal finished seam. Obvioiusly, finding material to match these will be the challenge, so I thought I would ask here.

Well, in our council, actually, there are no events made for the crews to come together for. Crews can volunteer, as individuals, to work at the council camp, but other then that, the crews are pretty much on their own. Since many in the crew were already going to be at camporee, due to their connection to a troop (myself included) or OA, I suggested they, all,consider going. There have been crews at Klondike in the past, although not very competitive ones. This was more a chance for them to get more camping in and spend some time together. What I found striking was hearing the shreeks of new scouts, in the troops up on the hill, sounding like banshees, apparently on their first, ever troop campout, and seeing the crew being a mature bunch having fun throwing an electric frisbee after sunset. I guess it was a, you had to have been there.....

In the meantime, I will encourage them to adopt the COD program, in lieu of no means to recognize and challenge the youth and adults for future commitment and service to the crew and scouting. The only members of the crew who had a problem with it when I originally mentioned it were male members who were OA members. They have long become inactive in the crew, and it is primarily my daughter and quite a few girls who continue to drive this crew. The prediction of it becoming an all girl crew may come to pass, but for now I think they deserve something of their own and none of the other crews camp as much as these 9th graders do. They went to Spring camporee and got third in the knot tying relay, which really got the attention of all those troops who came in behind them. Not bad for only learning their knots the first night of Camporee, thanks to the only male, Eagle scout member of the crew to attend with them. He loved being the injured victim in the First aid challenge, until they dropped him that is. My comment to them will be if they adopt the COD program, and they induct me, I will take off the OA flap and wear theirs.

Thank you, OGE... that last line is the part that is the reason I asked. My daughter, the current Crew president, will probably never be eligible for membership into OA, and it's for that reason I asked the question. She has been a loyal supporter of scouting, having worked day camp for her brother for 3 of the 5 years he was in CS, and even though she is now in a BSA program, she still finds things she can't be a part of, even though her female advisor took a brief district committee position long enough (less then a year) so she could be nominated for OA, and now is no longer active, but she has her flap and sash.

Yes or no, and does it matter and why? I saw one Venturing uniform at Conclave this past weekend, and that is what made me wonder. Thanks,

Thanks, after I posted this question, I ended up getting the scoup from an OA scouter friend. The bivy sac will work, and SG has some decent, inexpensive ones. They will come in handy for those leaky canvas tents at summer camp, as well. Thanks for the advice and concern, but it was more a gear question then any concern for his well being. He is looking forward to this.

I appreciate that statment, Emb021... just as all weekend campouts should be 2 nights, and this one of all of them should be as well. I talked with a friend who went thru with her son, last year, about it and she said that it was annoying that many of the new members left after dinner on Saturday. You should be so tired, you don't even want to get behind the wheel until after that 2nd night of sleep. Sunday morning should be a time to reflect having gone thru this process, and perhaps having a little ownership of the place after that 2nd nights, but under canvas this time. I am going thru this with my son, in case I failed to mention that, but we'll be in seperate work parties.

I just found out the new OA candidates can go to this months OA meeting, tonight, so that should answer these questions. I agree this needs to be an adventure for the candidates, and know it will be memorable. Thanks for the comments...

GernBlansten,

I remember making a tube tent like that when I went hitchhiking in the UK. I ended up only needing it the first night when I took the train from London to Cambridge (forget hitchhiking out of London). It was a very special night for me, back then, and this will be no different for him. Thanks.

My son was tapped out for OA 2 weekends ago, and I have heard people talking about sleeping in bivy sacs. What is the most economical way to do this, without perhaps purchasing something you might not use again, unless it's for when you make vigil? I remember using a tube tent when I was hitchhiking around Europe. The camp is close to 8,000 feet in elevation, and we do seem to be getting more weather then we usually do for this time of the year. I guess I should ask what is allowed? Conclave is in 3 Saturday's.

Very well put, again, ajmako. It's not about the particular skill, but how it can be accomplished doing something larger, and more fun, that get's it all done. I was told of a place that is perfect for the 5 mile hike, that involves some old ruins that are no longer shown on the USGS maps (the scouter who told me about it has an older map that does show them). The hike in and out completes the requirement, but for the boys it's all about finding the ruin, and visually examing it, without disturbing the site. I will challenge them to come up with activities they want to do, that meets some of the requirements, but to think beyond what is on the paper. Thanks, again.

ajmako,

That last paragraph of your response pretty much describes what was happening in this troop, since I have been a member with my son for some 15 months now. We officially dismantled what was left of the patrols at the last meeting, and the boys came up with the new troop patrol name (chupacabras) and will hold patrol elections tonight. I appreciate all of the responses to this difficult but necessary change to the current troop structure. I want to get this in the hands of the boys as soon as I possibly can.

We have 2 new, but older scouts (1 joined in January and the other just joined) that are friends with an 8th grader in the troop. The one who joined in January wants to get to his 1st class ASAP. He was a few years ahead of my son's den at the Pack, but didn't go into Boy Scouts when he finished Webelos, 3 years ago. Since our lone crossover got pulled from the troop when his father, who was my CM replacement at the pack, did not appreciate that I was not running things like he thought they should be run, as in Cub Scouts and not Boy Scouts, we do not currently have any new, young scouts. I see no reason not to advance these 2 boys, quicker, if that is what they want to do, as long as they make the campouts, to go along with it. I'm curious what suggestions you/all might have on this. It won't be FC/FY, but I want them to feel they are not being left behind, just becasue we usually take longer for a much younger scout to reach FC. All three of these guys are old enough to join Venturing, but only one is currently 1st class.

Having gone thru the 5 years with my son starting as Tiger den leader and stayed with it, I took a break the first year of Webelos to be CM, and did both the last year. The unit commissioner I had for the Bear year suggested that the only award that should mean anything is the one someone else nominates you for. I know that's old school, but I never filled out any form for CS awards, before or after that. Then when I went with my son to the troop, I ended up receiving the DAM. I figured that was for all the good things I was still going to do, because I didn't think I deserved it, not with the people I was in there with. Now it's all different, the DE who recommended me for it has moved on, and I'm running units for my son and daughter, and they asked me to run one more day camp this summer. I submitted for the WDB new unit award for starting her crew, and would love the SM AoM and the Advisor AoM to go with them, but that's all.... just those 4, I promise.(This message has been edited by kahits)

I have been struggling with this since crossing over with my son, and 2 other boys, 15 months ago. I am now SM, with a limited group of boys. The troop makeup is as follows:

10 Scouts:

1 close to Eagle and age out

1 16-year old Eagle SPL (who has become inactive since completing his Eagle rank)

1* 16-year old, ASPL, close to Eagle

1* 16-year old, close to Eagle

2* 14 year old active scouts (1st class & scout rank, his friend who just joined)

2* 11-12 year old (Tenderfoot & 1st class)

2* new crossover scouts.

We basically have 7-8 scouts who can be expected attend troop meetings (marked by an astericks). The 3, 16 year old scouts make up their patrol, and the 14 and 11-12 year old scouts are in seperate patrols. Obviously, there have been numerous scouts who are no longer with the troop and their patrols, which gives us this odd, current situation. I'm trying to figure out the best way to structure the troop, if there is another way, then to have 3 patrols, one being the 16 year olds, and 2 patrols of the 2 lower aged groups. It makes sense to have this make up for a viable PLC, but beyond that, I have to wonder. There is a possibility of more new scouts at the end of May, but for now, I am assuming no more new scouts, although recruiting continues. Any suggestions from leaders who have been in this low troop number situation would be helpful. My son is the 1st class, 12 year old. The 2 boys who crossed over with him have had tough times, going into Middle school, that caused one to drop out, completely, and the other to leave the state for custody reasons. He is coming back, in theory, next month, and very much wants to rejoin the troop, and I hope he does (He's the 11 year old listed above). There have been no patrol meetings since we came to the troop, which is another question about how you do that with these kinds of numbers.

1 SM (me)

3 ASMs

5 Committee Members - one Treasurer, one Chair, one Advancement Coordinator, a Secretary, and one additional member who is transitioning out of the troop.

10 Scouts:

1 16-year old Eagle (who has become inactive since completing his Eagle rank)

1 close to Eagle and age out

1 16-year old SPL, close to Eagle

1 16-year old, close to Eagle

4 12-14 years old very active Scouts

2 new crossovers

This is a good reality check with all these larger troops, with more adult leaders. Both of the ASM's are part time, with only one going on campouts, but not very often. It was the former CC who went on most of the campouts with me, last year to make the campouts happen. If you look at my other posts, you will understand the challenge I undertook to keep this troop going, but for now, I am the one who is running the outdoor program. I also deal with training, mentoring, and conferences, only for the under First class scouts. The 3 remaining Eagle candidates are being handled by the former SM, now a committee member, but I suspect I will need to get involved in the next few months to help them complete their paperwork. All of them have their Eagle projects completed, but have yet to complete the paperwork, and possibly a MB or two. I believe our current strength is the committee, but I am working hard to get our ASM's more involved. One of the newly crossedover boys' father had to take the CC position, because of the vacancy, but I am going to need him to help me with the outdoor activities. We hope to crossover two more boys at the end of May, but I know I am just being hopeful. The other crossover's father is a former Scout, with great outdoor skills, but he chose to remain with the pack, at least for the year, to make sure it survives (the other crossover's father took my place as CM, and is now coming over a year after me). He can help if I need him, once his son starts doing more camping, so he will be there if I need him.

I don't really want to think about the next recharter, but the committee will probably be in need of an advancement chair, which is going to be difficult. There are smaller units starting up in the district, and I know we have larger dens of scouts coming up from 2 different packs that we have been able to connect with as feeders to the troop. With the next COH, we will have some 1st class scouts ready to begin more structured MB work.

As an inner city unit, the troop has never been larger then 35 boys, and has gone as low as 3, from what I was told, but I believe we have good opportunities to provide support to two local packs that, at least in theory, will bring potential crossovers to the troop. My son's charter middle school is new this year, and I have permission from the principal to recruit from the school, which is a total of 100 students for the 6th and 7th grades, starting this year. They will have a new 6th grade in the fall of 60 more kids. Looking at the organization of the other units listed here, we have plenty of room for improvement, and that's not bad.(This message has been edited by kahits)