kahits

Thanks, Tokala... I guess that is more what I was looking for in posting the question. Obviously, this is a fair challenge for most lodges, if they don't already have a vibrant group of dancers and drummers. John n KC got me a contact for a lodge officer who was willing to talk with the youth in our lodge that is leaving for college, but wanted to orchestrate a gathering of advisers and the new LC, as a means of transitioning out of the position, and hopefully getting some movement on this challenge. Our 9 chapters in the lodge are the complete range of tribal cultures (Sioux, Cheyenne, Comanche, Cherokee, Ute, Mescalero, Zuni, Crow, etc.) so the cultural empahasis or a dance team could be just about anything. I guess the traditional powwow styles would be the pallet and of course drumming is wide open. As you suggest, it really comes down to finding boys who are interested in doing one or both and going from there. Currently we have mostly adults doing dancing, other then ceremony team members wearing their regalia with no idea how to dance, and the only drum is all adults. I would like to try and change some of that and get the youth to step up, but I know that is easy for me to say. Perhaps, out of this, we can hold a workshop at Fall Conclave and see who is interested. My son dances Northern Traditional, which is an old, and sacred, traditional style, and I would like to think there may be a few youth arrowmen who might be willing to try. I wonder sometimes if any of this is easier if there were a few more native arrowmen, active in the lodge.

Having been asked to meet with the new lodge chief about the possibility of helping the lodge to build a dance team, I thought I would ask here. My son already dances in the chapter, but he is alone in that regard, for obvious reasons, he has been dancing since his naming ceremony, just before he joined Tiger cubs. From what I have heard from scouters who were active in youth OA, the OA dance teams have come and gone, but in this part of the country, there are very few youth who aspire to dance, beyond wearing their ceremonial regalia and shaking a leg at conclave. Has anyone recently started an effort to build a dance team and how did they go about doing it. We have quite a few advisers that dance in the lodge, but very few youth who truly want to learn traditional regalia and dance styles, or so it would seem to me.

Thanks, Gunny.... We decided to keep it simple, since this is just Scout camp, and have the SPL go thru a list of critical items to bring, and items not to bring, and call it good. We have some new members who were never presented their neckerchiefs, so will do that, as well. Fortunately, our camp has no cell phone coverage, but the issue of hand held electronic games and players will be covered. The council strongly discourages them being taken to camp, and we support that. Irregardless, they are in for a great time at camp.(This message has been edited by kahits)

I believe there is a possibilty that he was under 21 when he was put in the chapter adviser position, mostly because his father was the district commissioner, and the chapter had been dominated by his troop for the 10 previous years. Since he was more comfortable with the youth, still being classified as one, himself, he didn't care to see any adults at chapter meetings. The chapter had been in decline before he took the position, and continued to slide in the almost 2 years he was adviser. I agree that OA provides wonderful leadership opportunities for youth up to their 21st birthday, but once they reach that milestone, things are much more difficult, at least in his situation, particularly with the older advisers at the lodge, and all the opinions that tend to come when you are barely an adult in their eyes. I had enough confidence in him to make him my successor in the venture crew that I started, but they are having similar difficulties, which I had hoped his association with the troop of the same number would be encouraging their older scouts to step up and join. The irony was that I asked him to be the crew adviser, about a month before I went thru my ordeal, with my son, and some 4 months later, they asked me to be the next adviser for the chapter.

I was only referring to district nominations and what the form states. I'm sure there are many ways to nominate at the council/lodge level.

It is just summer camp, so there won't be full backpacks to tear down, but I was more thinking of a means that might be a ceremony for this. For most of the boys, this will be their first Scout camp, even though all of them went to Brownsea for a week, last week.

Maybe I misspoke... I know he was 21 in 2006, which means he may have been appointed soon after his birthday. The transition from youth to adult is a difficult one, and I'm witnessing that in this situation.

District nominations are between either the District Chairman or the District Executive to make the nomination. The Chapter Adviser approves the nomination, by signing the nomination form.

Interesting discussion... on top of trying to rebuild my son's troop (see previous posts), with better successes this year then, the two previous years, I am also rebuilding our OA chapter. Before I was asked to take over the adviser position for the chapter, it was down to 3 boys from the same troop, attending meetings, with a very young adviser, who was a 21 YO Eagle scout from the same troop, who had been chapter adviser for almost 2 years with the chapter. In that time he had strongly discouraged adult OA members being active in the chapter, or even attending meetings. The perception was the chapter was only for that particular troop, and has been that way for quite a while.

Since I am the camping chair for the district committee, the chapter adviser has always been a member of the district committee, so I'm wearing two hats at those meetings. The Adviser should be asked to report on the progress and activities of the chapter when the committee meets, which can be tremendously helpful if you need assistance from that group of experienced scouters. Our chapter had a still running Yahoo group/List serv for the chapter, that contained some great history in the communications that were archived on the board. Unfortunately, the last adviser to have ownership of the board, never turned over the password to his replacement, so it spits out meeting announcements each month, within a half hour of the current meeting time, which is 30 minutes before the monthly Roundtable. We, instead, set up a separate chapter list serv, to begin to build communication between our members. We had the added issue of two parts to our chapter, one being urban, and the other going South of town out to 70 miles, where alot of the units were spread out. The members in the South group refused to attend the in-town, meetings, so we had only about half of our members able to attend meetings, monthly. We have since started a South, sub chapter, to offer a means for those members to become active. There are troops down there that have SM's who won't support OA, because of this perceived inequality, but seem to have alot of youth in the troops who are brotherhood members. They will probably start a ceremony team off their own, and the Chapter Chief position will rotate between the two groups from year to year, with the Vice Chief being in the other group.

As for how to best bring the chapter together, elections are obviously the key to bringing in, new, excited arrowmen, without the negative baggage that can come with youth and adults who have witnessed a chapter linger for too long on the edge of oblivion. We are going to be having social gatherings for the new ordeal members, after each conclave, as a means to encourage them to consider being active in the chapter, at least by the time they make brotherhood.

Lock-ins are a great means to bring the new and brotherhood members together. We started by watching movies of films that related to the tribe of our chapter (we are Cheyenne), and started to rebuild the chapter regalia as it related to building the ceremony team. Our 2nd lock-in we spent having the boys cutting the fabric they purchased to sew their own ribbon shirts. I want them to wear them at Conclave as much as possible, and to then start on making scratch moccasins (no kits) which are cheaper to make. None of this can or will happen without the help of adult chapter members, and if you don't have any members who use sewing machines in the chapter, then some parents may need to be recruited to help give the boys access.

Between the chapter responsibility of performing Arrow of Light/Crossover ceremonies and OA elections/camping promotions, there is a great deal of opportunity for arrowmen to take on leadership responsibilities and promote the chapter to troops and packs. We are hopeful to see our boys return for Fall Conclave to perform a Pre-Ordeal ceremony, as well as to eventually have a drum team. My son is the only member who dances, but being Dakota is something that he brings to the chapter and lodge that I hope is of some assistance as an example of what any youth can bring if they are proud to wear their sash. I agree that a monthly report to the district committee on the status of the chapter, and the kind of assistance that would be helpful, is important for the committe to hear. Having a strong OA chapter is just as important as strong membership and advancement committee/programs.(This message has been edited by kahits)

I have a group of 8 boys going up to camp, on Sunday, and have a question. Having seen some quick shakedowns in previous years, I am curious what we might have the SPL do to perform the shakedown, based upon how your units have done it in the past. We have one boy who is new to the troop, but has not been presented his neckerchief, which we will do at the same time.

Conclave update... the grand entry came off without a hitch (he carried more traditional hand weapons), and when I spoke with the lodge adviser, he gave me the impression he would have had no problem with the working prop, if it was okay with me. I hope I continue to remain in their good graces, as we bring the chapter back to the strength it used to be in this 75 year old lodge. The oldest in the Western region, according to the new lodge flap.

I will take you up on that, GW, when I can scrounge up the money. It will need to look like it got drug up into Canada and back, on horseback in 1876-77.

Thanks, for the replica sources, GW... I have alot of the brass tacks and nails, that I momentarily considered putting in the furnitue of that rifle, but came to my senses. These are reasonable for what you get, and getting a yellow boy would be more realistic and historically correct, as an Indian rifle. I'll have him carry hand weapons, instead.

Oh, don't tell me he can't wear the beaded, sheath knife.

and if it has no firing pin, is it still considered a firearm? That was my fallback position, since the rifle will never be fired.

I know that veterans are the only ones who are allowed to carry firearms at powwows, and he would never do that. Since most of our lodge dance group (none of the chapters have a dance team) are just ceremony team members wearing their ceremony regalia, this is an opportunity to bring something that is tied to our chapter that is beyond ceremony team. He could always carry hand weapons as a back-up, but I would like to pursue this first. I'm tempted to go with the beg for forgiveness route at the lodge, since I know they are pretty terratorial about things, and there is nothing like this happening at the lodge. He's also wearing a calvary coat to go with the leggings and DS headdress.(This message has been edited by kahits)

The only time it was carried was at Camporee, which was a rendezvous theme, and was located at a local gun club. It is not used for AOL/Crossovers, which are usually at a school, and is a different ceremony. I am asking about it being carried in the Grand entry at the lodge for Conclave this weekend. I agree that rifle and caliber is popular with the Cowboy shooters assoc., but as you suggested, would have to seriously think about firing modern ammo in a 116 year old rifle. He would only carry it to dance in the grand entry, after the Feast on Saturday, and would put it back in the scabbard. The other weapon is a 10 foot long buffalo lance, which would have other issues to try and dance with. I'll probably ask the lodge adviser, but thought I would see if any of you knew of a prohibition for using antique firearms in OA.

Our chapter has recently adopted a warrior society as a part of the tribe that identifies our OA chapter. Since historically the Dog soldier was a heavily armed lot, some of our dance team have chosen to carry hawks, sheathed knives, and a certain 1892 Winchester Leveraction, in 32 WCF caliber. Obviously, that caliber is long gone from regular, commercial production, but I have a question. Since our ceremony and dance teams have been at our AOL/Crossover and tapout ceremonies only, since they adopted to change the regalia, is there an official OA policy for firearms, that might come into play at the lodge level. Anyone familiar with this?

Thanks, Mark. My chapter (My son and I were just new to the troop) ran camporee, 2 years ago, and because it was so hot and dry that year, they decided to do it starting at 10pm, Friday night. Your start time depended on when you arrived and checked in (We got a 10:20pm start time). The first event was steal the bacon, with a soccer ball with glow sticks taped onto it. I'll never forget the sounds of kids tackling each other in the dark, seeing only the glow sticks. Some groups didn't start until 1am, and didn't finish until 4am, but they had until noon to sleep in on Saturday. The tapout was at 3pm, and the LDS units left soon after that. For the rest of the units, the chapter challenged everyone to a game of capture the flag. It was a massive undertaking, in which the chapter reigned supreme. It was a more basic event then what we now have, and it still sticks in my mind as the one that was the most fun. Talk about the ultimate stay up late adventure!

In talking with the DE, almost every station was run by either a leader from another troop, or outside consultants. There were some internal logistics that involved his own adult leaders, and one in particular is the one with the funds to rent generator floodlights, and other things. All that needed to be done was to remove his troop name from the leader guide, and it was fine. He has been since put on the District committee as activities chair, so this is really more his job, then something to promote his troop with. My concern was units going elsewhere, because they didn't think it was a fair event, and as Chapter adviser, I need all of our units to come to camporee for tapout, which won't happen if they feel it wasn't fair, and decided to attend one of the other districts' camporees. All that being said, it was a great event with one of the best tapouts in a long time, but for those units that endured a day and a half of stations, only to find out the same patrol won as last year, I know I would have had a thought or two go thru my mind. He knows it has to be all done in a day, next time, and that's a start.(This message has been edited by kahits)

Having just finished the second Spring camporee under the organization of the same troop, I have a question on how your district camporees are run. As I said, it has been the same troop doing the organization and running of the event, with the same outcome. The host troop has won it for the 2nd time in two years. Being the Chapter Adviser, I have some concerns about the long term effects of this kind of system, particularly as it relates to our ability to get the units to commit to attending camporee, so we can tap out their youth and adults. The current organization results in a single troop being designated the winner of the event, with places awarded for the other troops, and the individual stations. How do you do the scoring for your events, and how common is it to have; first of all, the host unit competing and winning 9 out of 10 stations, hence running away with the event, and; having a scoring system that awards one award to one unit, only, as the winner? We lost one unit that went elsewhere, after last years results, and I am concerned that we will lose more, which will effect my ability to rebuild the OA chapter. I agree competition is not a bad thing, but when one unit is given bragging rights, I am a little concerned it might have an effect on the youth coming together in the chapter as brothers. I might be overly concerned with this, but I know there are issues with some units and I have to ask if this is where we should be going with his important Spring event?

I agree, John. They are going to use some portable flood lights, becasue they have to teach range safety on Friday night, and will use that for the tapout circle. It won't be the same as a fire, but as long as we don't over light it, the ceremony should be fine. Hearing the bells of the dancer in the ceremony team approaching in the darkness should be still very interesting. Once they have tapped them out they will take them to another location with a single propane lantern to do the rest of the ceremony. We don't want to risk starting a fire, even though they had a truck with 600 gallons and a 100 ft. hose that could pump the water out another 50 feet. What brought this about was a massive fire, not far away that started yesterday, so it could have been alot worse. As for the event going to noon on Sunday, it could have all been done on Saturday, but alot of events were scheduled for an hour, and it became a nightmare to schedule. Now we have a chedule with alot of open blocks for alternate activities, but many of the units won't be completing the the event, and will leave after breakfasat on Sunday. The LDS units will leave Saturday night after the ceremony. As the Camping Chair and Chapter adviser, I think we need to talk about this, between the organizer, who is going to be the new activites chair, and our new DE. He assumed there was going to be alot more people coming then will likly show up, and it wasn't worth the effot to extend this, when whoever gets the awards for the most points will be an exercise in who wanted or could stay until the end. Getting home late Sunday afternoon is alot to ask, when it's always been over late Saturday night.

Yes, no open flames.... this is being held next to a gun club (for the shooting event), but is pretty primitive, so no means to have even a propane fire, if that wouild even be allowed. I would love to move up the ceremony, but this camporee is so over scheduled, it runs to Noon on Sunday, just for the events. It's going to be dark, no way around that.

I just got the word, we won't be able to have camp fire for this weekends ceremony. We were planning on having two fires to do our ceremonies, but need an alternative idea, instead. My first idea was to just move it up, before sunset, but that is probably not going to be possible. Anybody have a good idea of how to do a night ceremony without a fire?(This message has been edited by kahits)

I was just notified that we can not have any, open, fires at our district camporee. The organizer is frantic, so I thought I would post the question here. The theme of the event is a Mountain man rendezvous (hawk and knife throwing, archery, caber & stone tossing, black powder, first aid, timber cutting, etc.). We were planning on having two campfires for the after dark, tapout, and a fire starting event with flint & steel. Anybody have an idea of how to substitute for a fire for tapout, and another event that could replace fire starting? Don't you love these last minute changes... I supposed alternatives should have been thought of, with this possibility.