kahits

This is probably the toughest issue to deal with in all of Scouting. We have 2 girls who want to join our crew, after being asked to leave, their own crew because of something that happened with one of the girls and an adult (from the associated troop), on a campout. The 2nd girl left in support of her, and now they both want to join our crew. Both are 18 years old, while our crew has 4, 14 year old girls, and the 6 boys ranging from 14 to 18 in age. Our CC is the mother of one of the younger girls, and is not real excited about these girls even coming to the meeting on Wednesday.

I don't really see these girls as having any skills to offer to the crew, but they like being a part of one, obviously because of the boys. The CP is a little conflicted on this, because he knows the girls, but the Crew CC is going to have an issue with them, because they represent something that none of the younger girls are really interested in at this point. Given there were some clear lapses of judgement from these 2 girls, and how the adult leaders, of their crew, had to keep getting up at night, during campouts, to monitor the situation, this is clearly something that could threaten the viability of our much newer, yet much better organized crew. We can't afford to lose our Crew CC, but she is very concerned about these two coming into our mostly younger group of crew youth. I don't think any unit can prevent youth from joining, but I am curious of what might be possible to have some control in which youth may be screened, particularly when you know there are issues from their previous unit. I know the leaders of that crew and troop, which has been run rather poorly with the crew acting more as a Venture patrol, going on campouts with the troop, which resulted in one of the girls spending the night in the tent of a new ASM for the troop. Pretty horrific, and why there is good reason to be concerned about these two coming to join our less precocious group of youth. I plan on talking with my DE, but I thought I would post this dilemma here first.

kahits

CA

Thanks, Mascout... we already have a female advisor going on the trek who is much younger and in better physical condition. This mother is an extra, who would only be some company on the trail (as she likes to think of it...) for the girls.

And I agree, Scoutldr, these registered adults with no official position are of no help to any unit, particularly the brother troop who has many parents registered only to have them go on troop campouts for the fun of hanging out with the other adults. It makes the program more like the return to CS family camping, which is not the purpose of Boy Scouts and certainly not for Venturing. Once this is finally dealt with, she will have to go back to the troop connection for that experience, but right now she thinks Double H is like a Philmont light experience, hence an opportunity to tag along for the ride.

FYI... she is registered with the crew, but is in an unassigned position on the committee. She is similarly registered with the brother troop of the same number. I get the feeling it is more for her to be able to attend campouts, but not to do much else. We have a crew CC, but have not created any other positions since the crew was created this spring. I don't consider crew committee to be an active wing of the unit, since there are so many advisor and consultant roles that would best serve in that capacity. I don't want to burn a bridge with her, but she makes it hard not to, with her unwillingness to allow her son to mature outside of her direct observation.

Thank you all very much. I think I neglected to punch the reply notification button on this post. The crew did have a shakedown trek over the weekend that covered about 15 miles from Saturday to this morning. Both of the parents of this boy came along, with the father (who is divorced from the mother) stepping up, last week, to fill out an application as an associate advisor for the crew, when we found out our primary, male associate advisor was not going to be able to get off work for the weekend. It was interesting that he never made this leap for the 5 years his son was in the troop of the same number, which put a few people off from the troop side, but the crew was glad to have him there. He is a very healthy dad, who you would not even guess was close to the age of 60. I think his mom came along to try and promote her proposition to join the crew at the end of July, but it didn't go very well. Since the troop had a group on the same trek, but were required to hike 30 minutes apart for wilderness regulations, they would eat with the troop, and only hike and sleep with the crew. What got crazy was her insistence that they keep her briefed of everything the crew decided, usually over their evening meal, and when she saw that lack of communication, she came down hard on the crew president and the female advisor, who is nobody you want to upset for reasons that were not their responsibility. I was with my son's troop, since I will not be able to make this trek, but as I said, have already confirmed both male and female associate advisors for that week of the end of July. I talked with the crew president, this afternoon, and they were thinking that it would be best if this crew member just asked his mom not to come. After hearing how disrespectful he became when she started reading the riot act to the crew leadership, I don't think this is going to do any good, and just postpones the inevitable. They don't want her there, and she knows they (the crew youth) have the final say. Of course if it goes badly, she can just say then he can't go, which would be a real shame, so it's all a mine field at this point. I have tried to talk to her about it, but she is living in her own world, and it is a world where she has every right to go where ever she pleases, if her son is in anyway involved. Makes my earlier years as CM seem like the good old days!!!

Our crew had decided to do a trek at Double H HAB at the end of the summer. They are planning to use the next 3 months to prepare for the 50 mile trek. They will have the required male and female advisors, to go with the 6-8 crew members (2-3 females and the rest males). One of the mothers who has elected to sign on as crew committee is wanting to go, but is not a very strong backpacker (Over 40 but not overweight). Her 14 year old son has struggled thru her mothering since he joined the brother troop, for the past 3-4 years, and does not want her to be on this trek. In talking with the base director, there is nothing that will prevent her from going, on paper, but as the crew advisor, I think this should be up to the crew to ultimately decide. Since they have the required advisors to complete the trek, I just thought I would pose this question, so it can be handled in a proper way. I talked with a scouter friend, who's sons are in the same brother troop, about it, and she is going to try and talk to her about it, but this should not be the issue. The youth is the focus and how to best get her to decide not to go for their sake is the question. Can the crew youth just bring it to a vote and have it decided in that way, if she can't come to terms?

C21Advisor,

Greetings!

I have a great relationship with my DE and feel he will come to the same conclusions you just shared. I appreciate the clarification on the crew patch, which most certainly is what it is. I don't know if we have time for making our own, but that one certainly compliments the green, which really needs to be worked with. At this point, I want to show these options to the crew and let them decide, which is just my interest to add one more layer of detail before the uniforms are done. I will review those sections and will talk with my DE. I don't think it will be a problem. Creating a custom crew patch is outside of our priorities at the moment, but that big, white, generic square patch really has to go, all things being considered. When you refer to your crew deciding on which crew designed patch to purchase, are you talking about a source that has already created some? If so, can you share that source?

I agree that it does have to be Scout appropriate, but from the patrol patches I am going to have my sons patrol choose from, that term can be a little vague. I like the idea about the Sea Scout numerals, but I'm afraid that color has already been decided, but there are other options. I'll be interested to see what my DE says, and I'm hoping the crew will have an opportunity to make a few aestetic decisions on the final look of their uniform. Thanks for the great advice and encouragement.

Thanks, Kaji.. I believe you are referring to the VLSC trained patch, which is for the youth training, I was looking for something for the advisor(s) and crew committee, who also need training, and I believe should be acknowledged for their effort. The scout shop said there was only the tan BSA patch for that, which is why, I assume this website

(http://www.sageventure.com/store/patches.html) is offering an after market version.

These are the patches I was referring to:

http://www.sageventure.com/store/patches.html

Particularly, the adult trained patch, which would look alot better then using the BSA tan trained patch, and the round, green Venturing patch that would replace the square, white patch on the right sleeve. The Corp of Discovery is an interesting idea, although it would compete with the OA pocket flap, but for the girls, it would be a nice additional honoring, depending on how it would be used, they could wear, with the male crew members. When they say a crew can create their own uniform, where does that stop with the green shirt? All of these options work in concert with the rest of the uniform, at least from where I see it.

Having started a crew a few months back, i'm looking into some of the accessory patches that don't seem to be available, officially. I have found a site that sells a white with green border, Venture adult leader, trained patch. The scout shop is telling me to use the tan, BSA patch, which I think is not such a great idea. Since the crew can adopt, in theory, any uniform they choose, can't they adopt these modifications to what is officially available? They also make a round, green background patch that replaces the white square Venturing patch that goes under the Flag on the right sleeve. According to my DE, his first thought was the Council would have to approve these changes, which is of course a death sentence, and seems to go against the idea of the crew being able to design their own uniform. Comments?

I can't thank you all enough for the words of wisdom. I might not have a Boy Scout mind set, but I'm looking forward to seeing what these kids can do. If I have learned anything from my daughter, she wants to make decisions for herself, and has made that very clear, in the many months since she became a teen. She has gotten her point across, and I know there is much to learn when it comes to HS aged young adults. I agreed to do what I can to start this crew up, but there are alot of adult advisors that will need to be aquired to make it viable in the long turn. Perhaps it will be helpful not to have a BS mindset, but the work will be significant, no doubt about it. I wanted to hear from all of you just how hard this is going to be, and you have come thru in describing that in great detail. Thank you again.... If I have learned anything in my young experience as a scout leader, it is how to get help, and how to recruit more leaders. None of this unit work will be easy to accomplish, but I'm not going anywhere if my kids will benefit. Be assured you will hear back from me on this commitment. As I said, I have gotten to know alot of people in this relatively small district of committed volunteers, and we all seem to be connected by our love for our young people. I am just happy to finally see my daughter having an opportunity to join the fray. As for my son, we'll see if he survives Klondike in 3 weekends from now. Thanks, again.....

Wallace

T3 ASM

C134 AA

Thanks, vmpost. That is a great example of the differences between where an adult leader/advisor is coming from and where these older scouts / venturers are coming from. I know that is a big area that will take time for me to understand, let alone learn how to work with as the support. Listening to one of the ASM in my son's troop talk about where the older, HS aged boys are coming from in the troop told me alot about how different it is. That level of awareness will take time to aquire (he and his son has been there for 4+ years), and in the meantime I'm trying to convince him to remain with the troop as SM, along with his 15 year old son and Eagle scout. What you described in your crew was a good example of that difference. I know the kinds of things my daughter would like to do in venturing, but she won't be the one making those decisions, they all will. Preconceptions are hard to avoid, and we adults are no different in being tempted to run with them. When we were planning CS day camp, we could go with those very ideas, because it was all up to us. Now that I have left that world behind, I am delighted to be able to not have to make those decisions, and can just be there to help assist in whatever it is they want to pursue. I have no problem with that..... let somebody else do the talking, and learn to listen. My architectural training provides alot of that, because it's all about how you create ideas, and then make them happen. I have some great ideas of what they can do, but it's their time to come up with their own. This reminds me of my daughters science fair projects. She scores sky high in science, but really does not care for it.... I'd love to just do the project and get it over with, but no, I have to move along and see what she has come up with. It's hard to witness at times, but she gets it done, and when she does, it's all hers. It won't be any different with my son's troop or her in this new crew. It's all going to be very interesting, and I'm ready for me to be run ragged. When your time comes and people show up to tell the stories about the kind of life you lived, I hope they talk about my efforts in scouting, and not the architecture I built. We are all here because we have a son or daughter. I can't think of a better place to be spending my time. Just don't ask my wife to do any camping as a part of it.

Awesome advice, guys.... I will still play a primary role in both units, and I agree, they are not at all alike. In all the years of working to keep the pack viable and moving, I never had an opportunity to delegate to other leaders. However, my basic nature is one of chosing my peers well, when I have a choice, and delegating as often as is possible. We did take our Webelos to visit a completely adult lead troop and it made the parents as well as the boys ill to see how it was being run. That was the experience that helped them to chose the troop they are now a part of. Also, in those years of hauling the water for the pack, I made sure everyone was trained, and when I got excuses, I sent the trainer to their home to get the job done. I had great cooperation from the district to get it done, and for the most part, all of our leaders were trained. Seeing all those adults running that troop like it was Cubs for big boys was difficult to watch, but I really don't see a problem letting go of that kind of control that was so very hard to wield, when I had nobody to help me. Needless to say, I don't care to do anything on a pack level, other then to invite Webelos to our troop activities, and help them recruit den chiefs for their dens. The rest is up to them now.

There will be complications between these two units, in terms of their potential trips, but it is my impression that boy scouts meet and go camping more often then a crew will, partially because HS aged young people have more going on in their personal lives. If at any point, there is too much that conflicts between the units, I know my first priority will be with my son's troop, and I made that clear to my DE. He, my son, will be there the longest, and it will clearly need more work to get the numbers up and to help them move thru the program. There are other leaders at the district level who are able to come in to the crew, but I offered to be that advisor, because I think I can make it work. The crew is going to be a big focus for the charter sponsor, and once the open house is offered, there will be more then enough young adults to make it viable, since this start up has been long overdue. I am at a definite disadvantage in the timing for this work and training, but have been aquiring all of the materials that are available to do what I can, between now and then. I will have the full, hands on support of the District Venturing Chair in this effort (he is the most experienced scouter in the district and a very good choice for that district position), and have no doubt that he will be there for as long as will be necessary. As I said, the district has very few crews that are viable but this particular charter sponsor will bring a lot of support to this group of young people. You could not ask for a better, more committed sponsor. The comment I made about the Troop committee having a problem with any of their troop leadership taking the advisor position is more to do with a very close relationship between their committee and the charter sponsor, since this troop has been the only unit at that church, since it was originally chartered, 25-30 years ago. This is a big step for them, but the church has been ready to go with it for years now. In my experience with the district, and my dealings with their troop, I don't get a sense this is going to be a lone endeavor, but at some point if the challenge of providing the adult support to the crew becomes more then I can provide, with my son's troop commitment, I will have no problem taking an assistant advisor role, if a more capable parent/adult is available. I want to work on the committee with his troop, which won't be any easier, but at this point I have the time. There are several of my peers who do this sort of multi unit, multi tasking in the district, and I spend a great deal of time with them, when our roles bring us together. They are the salt of the earth to start these units in areas where there is nothing to build from, and for a group of young people they are not even related to. This venture crew will be started in the heart of one of the primary charter sponsors in the district, and I can see no better opportunity for a successful new unit then there. Call me an optomist.

Thank you John and Eamonn, what you are saying is why I posted this question. I needed to hear these cautionary comments. I appreciate the comments very much, and no offense taken. I have to admit that the past 4 1/2 years with my son in CS have been tremendously challenging, and extremely difficult, to keep his pack going, just so my son could stay in the program. In that time I have met many parents, running other packs and troops and at the district level, who have dedicated much of their time to doing the same for their sons, and have learned much from their tireless sacrifice and commitment. I did talk to the District Venturing chairman at the District awards a few weeks ago, about the possibility of starting a crew, but had no idea the other troop was looking to do just that, primarily to provide a program for a group of their 18 year old Eagle scouts to continue with scouting. This same Venturing commissioner was the District Commissioner at the time that our pack was about to go under. He met with us, in a park, to give us the direction and support that we needed to keep the pack alive. It was funny when I was taking to him, he stopped mid sentence, and asked me if he had met me in a park somewhere. He offered to provide any support necessary if I pursued the creation of a crew, and I knew his experience would be very helpful when that time came. This guy has done everything, but right now Venturing is his primary focus.

I guess the mindset that I have when it comes to starting a crew is I know this is going to be within the embrace of a very well organized charter sponsor and troop, from the one that my son is in. I hope that is not a conflict of interest. They are a group that are highly visible in the district, and with strong adult leadership, although somewhat political. However the only way their troop committee was going to allow a crew to be organized was thru an advisor outside of their leadership (they did not want this crew to be a draw down on their troop numbers, which are lagging, hence the need for a feeder CS pack, which they don't currently have.). Currently, there are no Venture crews in this part of town or district. I agree there is a lot of knowledge to be gained thru training, and it won't be anything like Cubs or Boy Scouts, but I have the time to dedicate to this challenge, full time (thanks to my physician wife, who loves her job), and considering my daughter will only be here for 4 more years, and my son for 7, I'm willing to take it on. I won't be the SM for the troop, but will work in the committee to do what I can, but will lead to start this crew. I learned early on in the dark days of my son's pack that I could get help. In that experience I made a lot of very good connections that made the difference and in some cases, were extremely inspirational. In defense of my DE, he is the hardest working human being I have ever met, and his energy is pretty amazing. As long as the work is tied to my son or daughter pursueing a BSA program, I have to at least try. My business partner would love to see me come back to work (we are architects), but I know the time I spend in these next 4-7 years will be time I will never regret. I can always step down from any of these commitments, but I'll make sure there is good, viable leadership to take my place. I'm just going to do what I think is needed, and see where it goes. Even though the days of my acting as the CM, CC, AC, and den leader for my son's den and putting the pack meetings together for the pack are behind me, I think I have learned not to get into a situation without good backup support. I'll do what I can, with the time that I have, to be out there with my kids, and their troop/crew. Just seeing my soon to be 14 year old daughter so focused on finally being a Boy Scout (I know, venturing is not scouts...) is amazing, when I consider how otherwise difficult her teen transition has been. This is something she will not be denied. If someone else were currently able to take that Crew Advisor position, I would gladly be an assistant, but for now that is not the case. Maybe it will be in the very near future. In this situation, timing is everything, and I'll have to take what comes her way. To do otherwise would be to keep at least my daughter out of the program.

Having just crossedover with my son into a very old troop (1937), I found out they did not have but one official troop neckerchief (they were home made, who knows how long ago) left, and because of that had stopped issueing them for many of the newer scouts. I was given the green light from our DE to go back and use the square, more original style, but getting them made might have to wait until some of the outgoing leaders are gone. I'm no little guy myself, and the idea of making a few larger version, to have a machine embroidered patch put on it, is motivation enough for me. The ones they still do have looked wonderful at the crossover, but the new scouts had to give them back after the ceremony. My son was so good about wearing his thru all 5 years of cubs with his collar tucked under, so the neckerchief looked more traditional. I don't want him to get out of that habit, so no time to lose.

I know you will think I'm nuts to be doing this, but here goes..

I just finished 5 years with my son in CS, having been a den leader since he was a Tiger, and having lost our Pack leadership at the end of that first year, I essentially took over as the unofficial CM, since we never found one who was capable of doing more then hand out awards at the PM. I went to National Camp school to be Daycamp PD, in his Bear year, and finished being the offical CM for both of his Webelos years as well as Webelos DL. He just crossed over into a very old (1937), but small troop, in January, that has always been our feeder troop, but in the 6+ years of the pack, we are the first group to actually join that troop from the pack. There is another, larger neighborhood troop that my son would have gone to, because of the den chief they provided his den for the last 3 years of his program, as well as our UC who was assigned to us in that same Bear year (the DC was her idea) and was also an ASM from that troop. So, this troop has been a very good supporter for us, yet they don't have any actual feeder packs established for them, but they are higher profile (the district meets at that church) so they get Webelos from all over. For now I am one of a handful of ASM in this small troop, trying to help transition new leadership since the older troop has boys grouped in 3 ages. The oldest group is almost out the door (HS seniors), finishing up their Eagle requirements, and the next group are sophomores, and then there is the new, youngest group that will be 5 when the Webelos I den comes this December or January from the pack. I was not interested in taking on the SM position, because I knew something else was probably coming up. So, for now, I am committed to the CC position (the current CC will remain for one more year), and am working on transitioning leadership to the outgoing SM, who's son turns 18 in a few months. One of the current ASM's, whos son is in that Sophomore group and already has his Eagle, might be able to stay on, if it can be made worthwhile for his son to stay. There are 2 more dad's coming with that Webelos I den, at the end of the year, of which either is willing to take on the SM position, so there are options.

Okay, now for the hard part. I have a daughter (14 in July) who is 2 years older then her brother, who has gone thru all 5 years of his CS experience, and has volunteered as a den chief at the 3 day camps he went to, and has made the commitment to join Venturing as close to her 14th birthday as she possibly can. That other troop has now decided they need to start a feeder pack out of the same church, as well as a crew for some of the boys who are about to turn 18. I have volunteered to be the advisor for this new crew, knowing full well that she has been recruiting alot of her girl friends, who are ready to jump in. The recruitment is in about 3 weeks, and I'm in it now. The den chief for my son's old CS den is one of the boys who will be turning 18 in that, other, troop and will be also joining the crew. Since he has been SPL for this his last year with the troop, and with the almost 3 years I have know him, I have no doubts about his ability to help start this crew. Another Eagle scout will be joining as well (his mom is that same UC), and with their great friendship, should be a good initial driving force to get the crew up and running. What I find more then a little bit funny is I have not even had training for Boy Scouts (early April), let alone training for this challenge. I guess I could use some encouragement at this point. The woman who was my awesome UC, is going to be starting up their CS feeder pack, although I was assuming she was going to be and assistant advisor to the crew. Her son is the reason she wanted to start the crew in the first place, to keep him in scouting. I know I can count on her for help, but she will be busy with the pack startup as well. Anyway, I'm sitting here mulling over this whole situation and thought I would tell the whole story (sorry for the length) and see what kind of advice I could get from this group of Venture scouters. It's been quite an adventure for me and my son, and I guess I feel my daughter deserves to have a chance to have a similar experience with dad (which even at 13 in all it's emotion, she still apparently does). That larger troop was disappointed when we did not crossover into their troop (my DE is the one who urged me to look at the older troop, because they needed new leadership or die), but are happy to have me on board in the crew advisor role. I'm wondering if this is a conflict of interest, even though it's the only way it can work for my 2 kids, since there are no crews without going outside of the district, which I don't want her to have to do.

Thanks, very much, Anarch...

I picked up the handbooks as SWScouter had suggested, and will bring them to our little meeting tonight (more like a brainstorming session). I talked with another of the ASM's, who's son joined the troop this past fall, and who will be around, after the other adult leaders have gone, and he will be there as well. I'm not trying to do anything behind anyone's back, but am hoping to find a way to get these Webelos leaders (from my pack) to bring their boys over sooner then January of 07. This meeting is more about getting them in the loop, but there is obviously more going on then that in the meantime. I also hope I can get this other ASM (who's 15 year old son made Eagle last year) to stay on, even if it is just to give us advice on how to change the momentum and future of this venerable troop, and just give us ideas of what he has seen and done in his lengthy scout experience. He's got scouting running thru his veins, and has only been interested in doing work on the unit level, which is great. Also, why is his son dropping out? Is there nothing after you have made Eagle?

Anarch... what you suggested is what I was hoping to hear. I do believe the program should be fun and full of adventure (I welded a zip line truck last summer, using mining sheaves, and plan to bring it to every campout that I can). I will print out your comments and suggestions to start with, and see where this all goes. Last night's T meeting was better, since they are getting prepared for next month's Klondike, so I could see a glimmer of what can happen, but it took 2 hours to get thru, and the organization was still lagging, but even my son was patient in it all. I am just interested in how these meetings can be run that can make them more dynamic and worthwhile, for both the older and younger boys? I have alot to learn, no doubt about that. Thanks again!

SWScouter,

That is a very good place to start. I will do just that. My son't NSP could use that PL handbook as well.

I have posted a few questions on this situation, as per the DE request I consider, for my son's Webelos den to crossover into. The troop is very old (1937), and has had declining membership, mostly because of a lack of recruitment efforts from the current leadership. The current SM's son turns 18 in a few months, yet I asked him if he could stay on until the end of the year. I'm beginning to understand why there is a revolving attendance of scouts with half of the 14 scouts (including the 3 new scouts) showing up at each meeting. There is one ASM who has a tremendous amount of scouting experience (he was on sabatical when his son joined the troop) and who has inspired me with his pioneering kit of poles that we have already used for the crossover for my son's Webelos den. Unfortunately, his son made his Eagle rank last year, and even though he is just a sophomore in HS, is not going to continue with the troop. I have a meeting set up with him and the 2 leaders in the Webelos I den, which I was the departing CM, who will be coming in a year to help the troop as the new SM. Even though I had planned to take over the CC position, with one of those other CS DL's taking the SM positio, I am realizing I might not have that luxury, and if I wait until later this year, there might not be much of a troop to revive. The problem seems to be there is little planned activity at the troop meetings, and other then announcements, plans for future outdoor activities, and a game, there is precious little for the boys to do, hence the meetings are brief. Even when there is an opportunity for the older boys to do some instruction / leadership, the SM seems to just get up there and wing it, himself. The other ASM refers to these troop meetings as being like going to night school, and I guess I have to agree. Since I did not plan on being the SM, I did not take any training, but will be able to do that in a few months. For now I am relying on advice of other scouters, hence, here is my plea to all of you. Just so you know, my son's den received their AOL on the 29th of November, and the Crossover was on the 17th of January. We have been attending their troop meetings since November, with a few other visits to other troops. We plan to go to the local BS camp in late June, and other then that, and Klondike, next month, nothing else has been planned.

Comments?

Sorry, Kudu (on the typo). I got tied up trying to use the formatter on this board, and went back and forth, with no luck... so had to delete your comments, and leave my responses. It is just so much easier if you can post the comment you are responding to. I guess I don't have the setting quite right. Goodnight..

I have to agree with you, Kadu. Why change a design when the original (cotton) still works? Having not looked at fabric for this purpose, this will make it easy, if a good color or pattern is found in cotton.

65 works for me....just the idea of a single number 3 patch, with that integrated into the top would be outstanding in it's understatement.

As for the use of a POR to help process any historic images that might be found, I love it. That work is key to any digital presentation, and to help one or more of the older scouts to make it their own, for the future of the troop.. it does not get any better then that.

Kudi, I agree. The best connection is the middle school that just happens to be across the street from the church that the troop has their meetings. No other pack is even close to this area of town, and those that are nearby, are so high provile, they don't even have to recruit. All 3 of the feeder packs has their kids going there, so it's really their domain to recruit scouts from. Since they have grown rusty in their recruitment at the middle school level (not to mention the elementary schools that had Cub scout packs), their efforts need help. I was impressed with their effort at the middle school (where my daughter is an 8th grader... and really wants to do Venturing when she turns 14 in July), and can see that effort being improved upon. I agree completely on the concept of an adventure.. I have a 93' Land Rover Defender 110, which I thought would make a great prop, along with these pioneering structures they were exhibiting at the middle school open house in September (park of that old troop feel that I liked from the start, even if they didn't seem to see it as a great place to recruit from). They actually recruited 3 boys (1- 7th & 2- 8th grade) for that effort. It is about the adventure, absolutely no doubt, and along the way, they can learn and experience the other things that will make them the leaders that Boy Scouts is capable of producing. I'll share that recruiting article. It is about the camping... and you go from there. This post is becoming quite the think tank for scouting, from the uniform to the way the troop can run, if you have boys ready for an adventure. How do you compare that to band or PE?

Thanks, SWN.. after Christmas I plan to do a thorough fabric/material search on this, to keep the momentum going and Kudu, I will take your extensive resources to heart. I know I have much to learn, and will take any advice that is offered.

Captainiron14, that is a very good idea. The 50 year bar would be a great, immediate addition to the troop, and in 2012, which will be about the time my son will be leaving the troop, they can switch to the 75 year bar. I still can't fully explain how the history of this currently struggling troop has effected me, but it has my complete attention and commitment. After 4.3 long years in the feeder pack of the same number (#3), and keeping it moving, this is going to be alot more fun. I plan to create as many ways as possible to emphasis the history of the troop, starting with the creation of a wall of honor for all the Eagle scouts and Scoutmasters that have gone before. I'm into making DVD's thru my kids sports and music recitals, so that would be a great tool to give or loan to packs, dens, and Webelos, to further understand that history is something that is a part of experience, even for this currently small troop. These seemingly small details are what I have been looking for to help in this process. My thanks to you, all.

Thanks, SWN... this is going to be an interesting process, including how we bring along the current, soon to be gone, troop committee and SM. The SM agrees this is the time to make a change, if there ever was one, and all the things I want to do to help the troop recruit more scouts, with some emphasis made on the 67 year history of the troop, falls along those lines. Is ponge pronounced pong-aa? Finding the proper fabric in a proper color will be the challenge, but there is so much that is new and functional in this area of making the neckerchief a tool on the uniform, once again. I am 6' 6", myself, so this would be an area that would make it a little easier for myself to wear as well. This Scouter network post has produced a wealth of knowledge and advice. Now to get some samples and a patch design before the next committee meeting. Thanks, again.

Kudu,

I agree on the need for the neckerchief to be easy to wear around the neck, especially if they are going to wear it over the collar. I guess anything that comes close to cotton, but is more durable would be a good option.

Thanks for all of those sources.... I will read all of them. I see this as a good time for the troop to reconnect with their past, and yet still move into the future. Since all of the Troop leadership/committee are looking for a clear sign it is being being taken care of, they will have no problems... I hope. Now I need to get my buddy to digitize a design for the neckerchief patch, which could easily incorporate parts, colors included, of the old, triangle neckerchief. Finding the fabric with color will be the big challenge. Thanks, again... I knew I would find the knowledge and experience I need for this reconstruction effort on this board. My thanks to all of you for your willingness to share!!

Wow, thanks, Kudo.... I have always had my son tuck his collar in, so he could wear his neckerchief the way I thought it was supposed to be worn, just trying to remember how I saw it worn, some 35 years ago. He is used to wearing it that way, and once they get a full, square neckerchief, that collar is definitely going to get in the way. Whether I can convince the boys who have been in the troop for many years before I just showed up will be the challenge. Perhaps that might be part of my ticket for Wood Badge. I believe it is no accident I have been given this opportunity to resurrect this 67 year old troop, and after seeing what current boy and adult (talk about Cubs Scouts gone wild...) led Troops look like, I think there can be one troop in our district that seeks to learn from the old ways. At least it is a choice for a Webelos scout that does not currently exist. Thanks for the inspiration. I found this bit of vintage inspiraton on the stave: http://members.tripod.com/~SNE/staff.gif

Thanks, scoutldr.... the thing that brought me to this troop (and the work that it is going to take to bring it back to where it belongs) was the history. Having grown up on the Standing Rock Sioux reservation (my father was a scoutmaster, but I was in Cubs, I remember seeing some of the old things(pioneering structures were my favorites) that seem to have gone by the wayside, and I think that is why my DE asked me to consider taking my son's den there. I'm looking into high tech fabrics that can be used for these neckerchiefs, and I'll go from there. I plan to take Wood Badge this fall, for more inspiration, and know that I have 2 more leaders coming from the Webelos I den. They said they would go wherever I go, and we'll need them. I'm very happy to be out of Cub Scouts, and know this is entirely different. The boys will do the leading, but I'll do what I can as the future CC. I appreciate the encouragement.