kahits

According to his father, who is my UC, the council they came from banned the use of white gas for all scouting activities, but our council has no such policy. His, my UC, opinion is that it is fine for older scouts, but new scouts should use propane. With proper training, I think it's safe for all of the boys. Something for the troop committee to help make the decision.

Having a small troop that has been using propane (my lanterns and stove) for the past few years, we are adding two, new scout patrols, and will effectively triple our chuck boxes and cooking equipment. My ASM, who is on loan from the district committee, has continuously said we need to get rid of the white gas lanterns, and other stoves, because they are too risky and are no longer allowed. I have another, mint, Coleman stove that would work fine with the troop, but I thought I would ask here, for a definitive answer. The previous SM used white gas for everything, and other then some extreme cold weather camping at Klondike, never had a problem with them.

Thanks, GWD... we had our meeting, this past Monday, and even though there were 1 or 2 boys missing from the two, new patrols, I let them go ahead and select their patrol leaders. It was difficult (especially when everyone voted for themselves, in one patrols case), but we got it done. We decided to use two of the next older (by one whole year, but lots more camping, Brownsea, JLO, and summer camp experience..) boys to serve as guides, with my ASM (I think I have one stepping up from the crossover parents, who is the Pack CM)to oversee, the both of them, to start with.

This way we can use our SPL and ASPL to work with the PLC and QM's, which will give us 3, patrols on campouts. I made a few more calls to my son's old pack and they have one WII about to finish his AOL, and a 6th grade boy who came out of the blue. He would go in with the next older patrol, and it looks like things are at least moving in the right direction. We have lots to get organized, but the boys are very excited, and that is good enough for me, for now.

Thanks, Bob...

I needed to hear this. The other 3 scouts came in the beginning of this year, from January to March, so it's only been 6 to 8 months, and they are close in both 2nd and 1st class, but have only completed tenderfoot, as of this month. We are planning on them completing both ranks by December, with the campouts we have scheduled. I think there will be enough for 2 NSP's, as you suggest, but with only one, active, ASM, we will have our hands full.

I agree, without these new scouts, the troop probably would not have survived, but I knew that going in (Jan.06) with most of the troop aging out, and no new scouts to take their place. Of course, I thought I had more boys and leaders coming from my pack, which never materialized, so it's been awfully personal over the past 2 years, to get to this point.

I have been making visits to this pack for the past two years (the pack will be three years old, in January, while we will be 71, the same month). We meet with the scouts and parents, this weekend, to plan the troop program, and will be discussing additional adult leader positions. The pack CM's son is now in the troop, but he wants to stay back to make sure the pack program does not suffer, but I don't know if we will have the luxury to let him do only that, because the Webelos DL is replacing our advancement chair. We are definitely light in the ASM department, but there are other parents who are willing to help, if we can lay this out. Unfortunatly, the leader training was last weekend, with IOLS, this weekend, so the timing could have been better, but they scheduled the crossover. I plan to share this with our Unit commissioner, and if we are looking at 2 NSP's, we will have our work cut out for us.

Hey, everybody... having been on this board since my sons crossover in January of 06, our small, but old, troop finally got the shot in the arm it needed, last night, when we crossed over 10 Webelos (9 from one pack). Now I'm reading all these posts on patrol organization, and I have some simple questions.

First, after a tumultous spring where we had 3 of our older, scouts leave the troop, for mostly personal reasons (they were friends, which is how they came, one by one, to the troop). They joined the troop as 7th and 8th graders and just never quite embraced the program, as they saw it. It did end up making the way for 3, new, 5th grade boys, who were much more enthused with being Boy Scouts, having come from 2 different packs. Not including our mostly inactive, HS aged scouts, and one who is out of state, for custody reasons, we have 4 active scouts. My 14 year old son is SPL, and will be Life in December. The other three are coming up on 2nd class. All 4 went to Brownsea22 this summer, and just completed JLO, this past weekend. 9 of the new crossovers are either 10 with their AOL and the other boy is 11 and new to scouting.

I spoke with the CM from my son's former CS pack, and she has 1 or 2 boys who are semi active as Webelos II's, but are not pursuing their AOL in their den, which is a combined WebelosI/II den. Both are old enough to crossover now. If either of these boys are interested, we could have as many as 12 new scouts. I'm wondering how this could be done, in terms of restructuring the troop, that is not just one, small, older patrol (a whole year older) of slightly higher ranking boys, and a very large patrol of new scout rank boys. One of the boys in the older patrol was concerned about someone looking out for the new scouts, and volunteered to be their troop guide. Now I'm seeing a really lopsided patrol structure, especially if we get more boys from the other pack, to bring the NSP up to 12. The three, slightly older boys are good friends, but I think the boy who volunteered to be TG was concerned that the other two had a tendency to be inappropriate, from what he saw at this past summer's, scout camp. So, that being said, perhap just 2 of the 3 boys in that small patrol are tight, and the 3rd is a little leary, because of his own personal code. What might be the best means to balance this unit, with this influx of new, young scouts? We did not have a PLC, with just the 4 boys, so there is no means to make a decision in that way.

Thanks for the great responses. Just an update with our incoming Webelos, things have moved quickly, now, with the den scheduled for their AOL/Crossover ceremony, three weeks from tomorrow. I was still under the assumption we had more like 3 months, rather then 3 weeks, but the boys are getting restless. The CM's son is virtually a professional BMX rider, and is only agreeing to stick with the troop to the end of the year, which is a real shame, but explains why his Dad has been non-committal in talking an adult position in the troop. I may be lucky to only have an ASM step up out of the parents, with a few on the committee side. I was being more then a little hopeful, I guess, in thinking that I would have my SM replacement by recharter in 09, but I'm okay with that if that is just how it needs to happen, even if my son has gone on to a local Venture crew that is looking to start up, with some of his friends from school.

Thanks, FS... the SM of that troop was just made the activities chair for the district, since the last Spring camporee. He maintains that he still wants to continue to run the event, as he has the last 2 years, and without a viable alternative, that will probably be the way it will go. Currently, all of the stations are being run by adults (leaders from other units or outside of scouting). The Chapter is in no condition to take on something like this, so it would seem this is a self fulfilling endeavor, but it does not have to be that way. Of course, that is just my opinion on this committee, and I am sure this process was not created by accident.

Thanks, Mark,

I think this is the ideal, and how this should absolutely be done. It will build the chapter, and motivate the boys to step up and lead, as arrowmen, which is the purpose of OA, especially for anything related to camping. Our chapter has suffered mightily, because it has been left out of these kinds of opportunities, and just plugs away with the minimum of purpose (OA elections, AOL and tapout ceremonies). The current Spring Camporee has been taken over by one of the troops, for the past 2 years, and the end result has been they have won it, the past 2 years. Other troops have elected not to attend future camporees, because of this, and the chapter is in a box, at camporee, doing only the tapout, and disappearing for another year, never to be seen at another district camping event. As it now stands, I am the camping chair for the district and the chapter adviser, and I think the district committee needs to reconsider what it has been doing, and why we are all here as adults. The chapter will need time to build for this kind of capacity, but they did the 06 Camporee, and it was fun and cool seeing these arrowmen running it.

I have a quick question. How does your district plan and run their district events, both for packs and troops, and is it done under the supervision of the camping committee, or a different committee. Our district has the Activities and Camping chairs seperate (but equal) on the committee, with everything planned and executed by the Activities chair. The Camping chair reports on monthly tour permits, and long term camps in the summer, and very little else. The OA chapter adviser, although and member of the committee, only reports on the direct activities of the chapter (elections, tapout, ordeal, and in theory, camping promotion). There is no direct connection between the camping committee and the OA chapter, in all of this.

One of our new district committee members, and his son, were telling me they had never seen a structure, as I just described, and had, for the most part, only seen all district activities done under the supervision of the Camping chair and his committee. This included the Activities chair, who worked closely with the teams heading up each district event. I can see an opportunity where the OA chapter might benefit from having a more direct connection to these district activities, and if they are not playing a major role in the running of the event, such as Spring Camporee, they could at least run the campfire.

Right now the activities chair is undersupported in our organizational structure and the camping chair is sitting on his thumbs, summarising the tour permits every month, at the District committee meeting, while the activities chair tries to get things done, even if they were not able to form a committee.

Our Spring Camporee, 3 springs ago, was run totally by the OA chapter, and it was a very fun event, with everything done at night, starting after dark on Friday night, with your start time depending on when you got to camp and checked in. As hot and dry (no fires allowed) as it was, doing it at night was a wonderful break. I can see a reason to tie the OA chapter, together with the Camping and Activities, and give the arrowmen an opportunity to take the lead in designing stations and running them. Maybe that is asking alot of them, with everything else they do (they currently do not ceremonies at the lodge, but we hope to change that..). I'm curious what kinds district committee structures you are using for your district activities.

We are considering proposing a change to the Chairman, but I thought I would ask here, first? Thanks,

Thanks USR,

You speak from experience and I agree with all of it. Our situation is different in that our troop is very small, and is now mostly 11 and 12 year old kids, who are just a year ahead of this den. My son (14 & SPL) and another boy (13) are all that remains of the older group, with most having aged out, and others who left the troop, because they just didn't want to be leaders, which is what was being asked of them, due to their ages. Obviously, we have a different set of needs then the pack, and when I meet with the pack leaders on Monday, I need to make sure the troop needs do not override those of the pack and their Webelos den. They are, understandably, going to want to make sure the pack survives, and I don't blame them a bit. My pack has struggled tremendously in the 2 1/2 years since we left, but that pack attracts mostly single parent families, looking for adult male leaders, which drove me a little crazy in the 5 years I was there.

Even with a December crossover, my ASM is adamant that they will not be going to Klondike, which I have to agree is probably not a good idea. My son's den crossed over in January, because they wanted to do Klondike, but we had no snow that year, so it was cold but not wet. I realize the more experiences our current, youngest scouts have, away from these crossover scouts, the more experienced they will become, once they do join the troop. They, all, went to Brownsea and Scout camp this summer, so had 2 weeks at the camp, in the first 3 weeks of June, and loved every minute of it. This discussion has given me pause to not push that den so hard, even though their boys want to join now!

I can only imagine, GW.. I wore the blue in the early 60's, before we moved off the rez (North Dakota).. but missed out on Boy Scouts because of it. Up there, we needed long sleeves and long underwear for alot of our activites, which is different from your experience.

So, I think the campaign hat is appropriate, and knowing these new Class A's are yet another pocket to try and sew a patch on, he might consider going with velcro and use both patches, for different ceremonies and reasons, but use the current patch for most activities involving the uniform. As nice as this very old, green SPL patch is, I would rather not start running it thru the wash. It's really a collectible artifact, and the hat really can stand alone, absolutely.(This message has been edited by kahits)

Interesting idea, but then do you go the rest of the way and use only vintage rank patches, along with the lodge flap. Our current lodge flap is too big for the current uniform pocket flap, but that is what they want us to wear. I guess since the color seems to be green in the uniform change, this would tie in better with the new uniforms. Knowing things are going to be a mixed bag for the next year, or even two, this didn't seem like all that large of an infraction. Some of our boys will probably not change uniforms until they outgrow them, which, could be 3 or more years from now. I see what the vintage uniforms look like, with and without a collar, and we had an ASM who still fit and wore his youth scout uniform (quite a feat!), but they look even more uncomfortable then the current shirts. I guess I see a few of the older positions patches being worn at camp, but realize the SPL is responsible for wearing the uniform properly, which I would assume means he can not wear the campaign hat, even for flag ceremonies.(This message has been edited by kahits)

Our small troop is in a process of commemorating the 75th anniversary of the troops last recharter (it was originally chartered 15 years before that), and I have a question. With the new uniforms coming out, next month, our SPL is trying to create a more formal, yet historic, homage to the troop, with my encouragement. A part of that is him wearing a campaign hat, with a 1930's era SPL hat pin, for flag ceremonies. He was given a mint, inissued SPL patch of the same design and age, that could be worn on the new uniform, sleeve pocket. I'm impressed with the quality that went into the patch. This will probably be a one time effort that will depart when he steps down as SPL, next year, but I thought I would throw this out for comment. He is also going to wear the older council patch that goes back, nowhere near that far, but few of the older unit scouters wear these on their sleeves, mostly from their youth days as a scout.

Very well put, InfoS.. We have several months for this to happen, and I'll be meeting the pack leaders on Monday, to go over the big picture and how it works best for the pack to transition their largest den and group of active parents. Obviously, this is all good for the troop, and patience will be key to doing this right for all concerned. The important thing is the boys are fired up to joining Boy Scouts.

Thanks, InfoS... that is really what I was trying to imagine, in terms of them attending meetings while still maintaining their active Webelos status. We are having our Klondike in January, and if they are going to try and camp, while attending the event, we will need time to prepare them, before they are active members of the troop, which probably won't be until after New Years.

I have been very honest with their parents, this spring, in terms of what the troop will need from them, and they are already a very active bunch of scouters, so I don't think I'm pushing anyone over a cliff here. I admit that this group is the core of the pack, right now, so they have their own concerns that relate more to the future of the pack then, the troop. The boys are getting ready for Boy Scouts, especially after they spent a week of Webelos in the Woods, last week at the Council camp, but the parents have their concerns. I'll meet with the pack leaders on Monday, and meet with the Webelos parents, as soon as that can arranged. With school about to start, that may take a while.

We would like to invite them to come with us to Fall Camporee or our Winter campout to White Sands in December, but these will all be up to their parents to support with their time and commitment. As for our need to transition leaders, that can wait until whenever they are ready to crossover. There is not impending demise to the troop, but I am going to make sure they know what our program/events are going to be, so they can chose what they want to do, or wait until the next time. I invited them to our program planning workshop, this weekend, so they can participate in the decision making, and see what some of the troop traditions are. Whatever happens is what is meant to be, and we will have new members in the troop, and thank you, Infoscouter for answering the question.

Thanks, Eol.. I was very disappointed that we lost that boy and his father, because of the incident at Camporee. He never liked that boy in the troop, but his approach was so different from mine. When my son and I joined the troop, there were some 17 boys on the troop roster and they were light years away from my son and my experience as a parent. It took me many months to begin to develop a connection with just some of them, as they began to, quickly, age out of the troop. I knew this boy in particular, because he was a few years ahead of my son in the pack, before he dropped out, due to his parents bitter divorce. They were still at each others throats, when he joined the troop at the request of his friend, who joined a few months before my son.

I agree that there should have been a formal meeting to talk about the transition to the troop, but it ended up being a long phone conversation, instead. I have requested to meet with the parents in that den, to do just that with this crossover, but none of them are as controlling as this father, certainly was. I made some assumptions, having known him since his son was a Tiger, a year behind my son, but since that incident, I have gone back to the pack we shared, and could see that he, as my CM replacement, had turned the flag ceremonies into full military processions, which his replacements are now struggling to pull off, with none of them having his military background. I considered him a friend, and hoped he would be able to greatly assist the troop in it's effort to recruit and retain more scouts. I saw him ordering my son at that Camporee (my son likes to walk in front on hikes.. because he is always looking for things.), telling him to get back in with the group as they were walking to the next station, but I didn't say anything. I believe that even we as adults in the troop have to earn our respect, and we sure aren't there to necessarily parent the other scouts, at least not as a perfect stranger.

The boys have all turned 10 before summer, from what the DL and CM have told me, so they should meet that requirement. Once I realized they were completing their requirements for AOL by the beginning of 5th grade, that is when I got concerned they might not have enough to keep them from getting bored with the program. I certainly may be stepping over the line in all this, but I'm trying to help the pack keep this group together and excited about doing Boy Scouts. Isn't that my job? Some of the parents have expressed concerns about their sons going into a troop in 5th grade, and whether they are mature enough, but when I described our young, small troop make-up they were more comfortable. Obviously, there are other reasons for this crossover date, because I would like their 4 to 5 leaders to start the year, from the beginning, which will happen whether they crossover in November or December.

There are personal reasons for all of this, absolutely, because my son will be completing his Eagle, next year, and is looking at going to a Venture crew with some old school friends. I'm committed to the future viability of the troop, but have told the Webelos parents, I am looking at 2009 as my last year as SM. I wish it was a different situation, but the reality is we are losing key adult leaders, who's son's have gotten their Eagle and went to college, in the last year or two. I need to replace them, along with the CC, who was the past SM. I plan to stay as a committee member, if that is their pleasure, but 3-4 years as SM is the limit of my commitment. I don't know how long my son will remain active in scouting, past his Eagle, but I can commit to being Chapter adviser, for a while, but that will probably be the end of it. It might have been different if I had been able to do Boy scouts as a youth, but 8-10 years as an adult is good enough, in response to my son bringing home that slip of paper for a Tiger cubs recruitment in his first few weeks of starting 1st grade. I admire and respect what I have seen on this board and in my district, when it comes to these parents remaining long after their sons and daughters have left scouting, but I won't be able to do that in my personal situation.

Thanks, BW. Truth be known, I went with my son to the troop (2 1/2 years ago), with the understanding that the Webelos 1 den would follow behind us, both boys and dads. In hind sight, it was a leap of faith on my part, not having any idea the difference between the two programs, and if I had really known this was going to happen, I probably would have not crossed over into this troop, and it would have never made it to it's 70th birthday (this past January).

After 8 months in the troop, I attempted to do this same crossover coordination with the now Webelos 2 den, and they decided they were going to wait until March or April, which I could see was normal. They wanted their boys to act as (untrained) den chiefs to the rest of the pack (my son's den was the only one to have a DC that stuck with the den from Bears to crossover). Becauese they earned most of their pins with our Webelos den, they stopped having den meetings, for that last year, which was what worried me. Obviously, this was their own pipedream, but what could I say.

I still had them come with us to Klondike (in which the DL proceeded to coach the boys thru almost every event, not understanding this is not Cub scouts). We got thru that, and they ended up agreeing to crossover just in time for Camporee in April. Again, I spoke with the DL that this was not Cub scouts and if he had any issues with the older boys, he needed to go thru me. He started telling them what to do (being the X Special forces vet that he was)and one of the older boys asked him, who made you my Daddy? I wasn't present when this exchange happened, but due to some unforseen circumstances, he ended up unable to communicate any of this to me, on top of him being very stressed in trying to make his son an instant Boy Scout when it came time to put up their tent (the dad wanted to share a tent with his son, and not let him camp with the other boys), he ended up driving off early on Sunday morning with our kitchen in the back of his truck. Lovely!

Yeah, there was more going on in that situation, and more could have been done to try and mitigate this adult leaders desire to control just about everything, but then if it had worked, I would still be dealing with his military attitude for 2 more years, and I would be the one who is gone by now. When your unit is small, these things can be a death sentence. Somehow, I managed to keep it going, in the hope that a large group of boys and their leaders are going to show up and take it over. I can still dream, I guess, that maybe this group is going to do just that.. in due time. The end result of that crossover was since we were talking only about 2 boys and 2 dads, one boy decided not to pursue Boy scouts, and returned the neckerchief and other items, and the other boys dad brought the chuck box to the next troop meeting, with both his and his sons neckerchiefs in a zip lock, saying he had never seen a more disrespectful unit, in comparing it to Little league, of which he happened to be the head of the umpires. I could see his was close to getting emotional, and thanked him for bringing everything back.

Boy scouts isn't for everybody, and life goes on, certainly for me and my son. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we have a good opportunity with this new den of boys and dads, but I assume nothing from this experience. I think I need to attend their next adult leader meeting, absolutely.(This message has been edited by kahits)

This pack are very much over achievers, when it comes to the W2 den. Of course, the CM's son is in the den, and even though his father is not the WDL, they have been gung ho from the beginning of the W1 year. They have done alot of work, this summer, along with going to WWW at the Council camp, which my son's pack never did, mostly because we/I never had the kind of active parents this den has been blessed with. He is telling me they all have completed their AOL requirements, as of right now, and I agree they could continue and complete the rest of the pins. I'm just a little concerned that by moving the crossover to the end of the year, they might start losing the boys interest, now that they have done some things with the troop, and are wanting to do it for real, as Boy scouts. They will all meet the requirements for crossover, by September, and I'm just wondering what else I can propose, if I can meet with their group of leaders, in the next few weeks. The programs are so very different, I just hate to lose a single boy, if they are ready to go now, and my group of boys are young enough to welcome them to the troop, when they give us the word.

Having had a conservation with the CM of one of our feeder (in theory) packs, today, I wanted to confirm the status of his sons, Webelos II den. They have 10 boys in the den, of which 9 are contemplating joining our troop.

We invited them and their parents to attend Spring Camporee, for the day last April, to start the ball rolling. Since then, they have completed most or all of their requirements for AOL, in their first Webelos year, and finishing up with the rest over the summer. He is considering a crossover into our troop around the middle of December. I strongly suggested that he not wait long, and allow them to cross over in October or November. Since these 5th grade boys will have little remaining to do for all these remaining den meetings, I thought I would ask here, what can be offered in the form of a transition that would recognize their early participation in the troop, while they will more then likely not be able receive credit for the training, until after they join.

We lost boys from my son's pack, because their adult leaders wanted to hold their boys back, for several months, before they finally crossed over. They boys crossed over, alright, but dropped out of the troop after just one campout (it was only 2 boys). I don't know if these are at all similar, but the idea of making Webelos wait this long is not something I care to repeat, nor can the troop afford to lose any more boys whos time was delayed, by a choice of their parents. I know if the boys voted, they would all vote to crossover, at the first opportunity.

Thanks, very much.... I did locate one on ebay, and was successful in getting it. I was just a little confused when what was labeled as a SPL pin, looked alot like the ASPL pin, but I now realize that one preceeded the other. I think I'm going to pick up a square, unissued SPL patch as well, but will present it to him at some point. It would be cool to wear it, but that is a different uniform set.

Thanks, GW... the source I found had both pins, labeled just as you described. What is now the ASPL patch image is or was the SPL pin, way back when. He also has the JASM, with the 3 full, green bars, both pins with the first class emblem in gold on each, so he is correct in his identification, and I am too new to know.

I am looking for one of the very old, spl hat pins for my son to wear on a campaign hat, for flag ceremonies. The only one I have located has the fleur in gold, and has the 3 green bars, with the bottom bar being shorter then the upper two. That would appear to be an ASPL pin. Is that correct? I know these are probably rare, but I thought I would ask here.

A very good question....

Having not done scouting beyond Cubs in my youth, it was my son bringing that flyer home in 1st grade that brought me to a meeting, that I went home being the Tiger den leader. I didn't become CM until 3 years later, but I had already saw a need to help with Day camp (PD). When it came time for him to choose a troop, we were asked to visit the local troop with our same, single digit, unit number. They were approaching their 68th year as a continuously chartered unit, the oldest in the Council, with virtually all of their boys approaching their 18th birthday. If we didn't join, the troop was going to be history. It was the history of the troop that caught my attention and so we joined, with my replacements coming with 8 or 9 Webelos, late this Fall. I still remind myself I am only doing this for my son, but since that new beginning, my daughter (who is 2 years older then my son), developed a passion for scouting by helping at 4 day camps, and wanted to join Venturing, when she finished 8th grade. I started a crew for her, that had a big influence on her non-academic interests, but have since turned it over to the younger, Assoc. Advisor. Now, I am the new chapter adviser for our OA chapter, as of last Fall, which has probably been the most fun of everything that has come my way in this volunteer run, movement. Why am I doing this? I still maintain it is for my kids, and I have plans to step aside before I get the Silver Beaver or Vigil. I enjoy the community of volunteers, very much, with our smallest district in the 3 district metro area, but do believe all of these positions are best done for no more then 3 years, with someone else being given a chance to take your place when you reach that point. Unfortunately for me, I don't see myself doing much beyond working with the youth, and my kids, and certainly don't see myself up there behind the podium, as is the destiny of those who were ahead of me, and whos kids are no longer active youth in the program.

Interesting, JnKC,

Since that is a rather extinct East cost culture, I don't see much mentioned in the current OA handbook, other then very general regalia references. Is that the same for dance team competitions? The ceremony team dancing I was referring to was the grand entry or parade of the grand chiefs (as this lodge refers to it) that occurs after the Saturday night feast at Conclave. Anyone in regalia lines up and dances in with the flag, for about 3 songs (the flag is placed after the first song, and that is it. It's kind of an anomaly, because none of the other lodges in the section do that, or do much in terms of dancing, from what I was told. How have you seen lodge dance teams used at lodge events? I would like to see more round dancing to get new ordeal members and the other arrowmen, who are not in regalia, up and dancing to the drum, but we need a drum team of youth to start with. I see mostly adults doing too much of this.