John-in-KC

I am also my District MB Counselor trainer. I train 10-25 new Counselors in my District every month as part of our total RT package of services to the units. I do that under supervision of the DAC, the Trainer, and the District Advancement Chair. My DAC works with his units to encourage more volunteers, but at the end of the day, the buck stops with the DAC. Yes, we're all volunteers. The paper, in my neck of the woods, is the reality.

acco, Again, my reason for #1 is what Counselor Beavah and Hizzoner nlds the Judge have told us in the past. It's not that we don't want the Scout to advance. It's that we should not put him in harms way by obtaining knowledge for which we may be subpoenaed and called to testify against him in open court.

RRR3, Read your PM. I'm going to pass it on to twp other people here, whom I respect. Here's what I think: You had from the day the boy joined your Troop to his Life BOR to work on his character. What you described did not happen overnight, it developed slowly over time. Had you refused to give him a Scoutmaster Conference for Eagle at all, ... well, go look for a thread we did about 18 months ago. It's 50 pages long. I would hope you had your act together with comments and notes following him up the line, because refusing a Conference is an appealable event. Had you refused to endorse his Eagle Application, again I hope you had your act together with comments and notes, because that also is an appealable event. Had the EBOR failed to advance him, well, I don't know. Much would depend on what was given him at the time. What I do know is that what he requested was within his rights. It's his ECOH. When my son earned Eagle, he was in a pool with 7 other boys, all HS classmates together. They, and us as their parents, made the decisions about structure, location, and on and on. The time to mold behavior is constantly from joining on. Dying on the hilltop at the ECOH is not one of the good ideas of life. That battle happened for things that happened 3-6 years earlier. No, that Eagle is his, like it or not. Look to how you implement the Ideals and the Adult Association Methods in the future.

As my husband who is district advancement tells the units in our district.. "It is not up to us to find the MBC, it is up to you.. Go out and ask your neighbor the doctor, or your best friend the Veterinarian or your brother the auto mechanic." WRONG-OH!!!, KEEE-MO-SAAAB-EEE!!!! ACP&P #33088: Districts Recruit and Train Merit Badge Counselors and Publish Lists The essence of quality Scouting is having sufficient qualified adult leaders. Nowhere does this become more apparent than in the recruitment of adults to serve as merit badge counselors. Because counselors must be knowledgeable in specialized areas as well as able to have a good rapport with Boy Scoutage boys, the district advancement committee has a challenging task in recruiting, (emphasis added) approving, and training merit badge counselors, and in helping units to do the same. It's the District Advancement Chairman's job!!! He should seek the help and support of the units, but it's his job. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

In addition to what OGE said, the CC does have the authority to ask the SM about matters of program and shortcomings he sees. I'd suggest doing this first offsite, away from the other unit leaders and youth, over a friendly cup of coffee. It may be that the SM hasn't seen the issue arise...

clemlaw, To me, merit badge counseling is at least as much about your own passion for the subject, your own fun, as it is the needs of the District (I am not a practicioner of "in-troop only" counseling; the kids learn our buttons. It's a better Adult Association process for them to meet a stranger, it will equip them for the job interview when they are 16.) So to me, it's COUNSEL what you enjoy, ENJOY what you counsel.

They gave up trying to make this outing a scout activity. Richard, Is the above what you really want? Sooner or later, folks will walk away from the program because it's too cumbersome to operate on the ground. (Don't get me started about Journey to Excellence, but that would digress). To answer your specific questions: IF a Patrol needs a ride to a trailhead, the operative rule is not two-deep leadership, it's no one on one contact. That means Billybob and his old single seat pickup cannot take just BobbyJoe who is not his kid. http://scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx The PL is probably not going to think through the nuances of transport to get Mr ASM to be the driver captain. He's going to ask the members of his Patrol to find a couple parents with enough seats and seatbelts to get it done. That is sufficient unto the day, believe it or not, so let it be so. Now, as far as aquatics go, IMHO the comment at the top of the page is about to apply: If the patrol decides to go to the city pool as a group, you can say all you want it's "not a Scouting activity." Baloney. The youth came up with the idea because they are grouped together as Scouts. Suck it up, put Safe Swim Defense into Junior Leader Training, and devolve the responsibility for closed water swimming to the commercial/governmental pool operator and the Patrol Leader. Now, open water aquatics? Yeah, make that a Troop level activity. Elsewhere on this forum, Beavah, an accomplished Scouter, listed all the activities the BSA National Council has removed from authorized activities for units. Let me give you a clue: It's getting harder out here in the field to sell Scouting to Chartered Partners and to retain youth members (who buy program materials from National and generate revenue for the corporation). If you want Scouting in the US to decline and die, keep doing what you are doing by listening to the liability attorneys. May I suggest a better way: Start looking at how laser tag, motocross, HS football team related Venturing Crews, martial arts, can all fit into the program.

acco, As our Counselors at Law (one of whom is a sitting Judge) have told us, the first point is the legal process must run its course. That's gonna put 1-3 months onto the clock before anything else. The reason for letting the process conclude is we can be called as witnesses against the Scout, if he confesses in a SM conference/BOR environment. Do you really want that on your shoulders? I don't. Second, our two Counselors have some experience with youthful offenders, and I trust their field experience to make the level of statement they did. To answer your specific question, it depends: 1) I would tell the young man nothing is going to happen at all until he's been in front of a Judge and the matter has been dealt with. 2) If he comes to me afterward saddened, chastened, and contrite, and the light seems to have turned on, I'd be looking at moving to SM Conf for advancement and EBOR in short order. 3) At the other extreme, if he's defiant or refuses to talk about it, well, I can set a fixed date for an EBOR: Seven months after his 18th birthday (where National has to give permission). The Scout is cutting his own trail right now, and he's hit a fork point. It's time for him to make decisions about who he is. Does that make sense? Does it answer your question?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

RichardB, I live in the burbs of Kansas City. Ask Mr Terry (Chief Eagle from the Sun in the Tribe of Mic-o-Say). From Parkville, Lee's Summit, Blue Springs, Kearney, Liberty, Gardner-Edgerton, even Lawrence, KS, a patrol could ruck up, hike 5 miles, and be out to a treestand on a farmer's property (we shall hope the PL did the LNT right thing and asked permission for his patrol to camp first). Now, for a Troop in the central core, near Mr Terry's old office at 103d and Holmes, they might need rides to the dropoff/pickup point. They might not; the Patrol could BIKE out. Scouts in huge chunks of the Nation can do this. Troops in smaller towns (think Salina, KS, Boonville, MO, Cheyenne, WY, or Osceola, IA) could hike just two miles and be in land appropriate for an overnight camp. So the answer is "Both of the above." As Rick Seymour (Kudu here) says, a patrol should have as its goal independent operations. It can be done. Heck, it was done, back in the 60s when my brother and I were youth members. A fully independent outing is possible. A detachment from a Troop activity is possible.

BDPT, Are you telling me you'd buy in to an Eagle Board right now, if he's otherwise ready, and voting for this kid as a positive role model to other youth? Relook the requirement: Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. Please explain to me how he lives by the point of Obedience, Sir! For me, it's a bridge too far today. Depending on all that happens, it may not be downstream.

Neal, I am not a risk manager, and I've not stayed at Holiday Inn Express this week, but ... I would expect G2SS will be brought up to this new standard at some point in the future.

From the form: Leadership and Youth Protection Training: Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities. Coed Venturing crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities. All registered adults must have completed BSA Youth Protection training. At least one registered adult who has completed BSA Youth Protection training must be present at all events and activities. Youth Protection training is valid for two years from the date completed. Adult leader responsible for this group (must be at least 21 years old): Name ____________________________________ Age _______ Scouting position _________________ Expiration date ___________________ Address___________________________________________________________________________________ Member No. _________________ City __________________________________________________________ State _______________ Zip code ____________________________ Phone _______________________________ E-mail ___________________________________ Youth Protection training date ______________ Assistant adult leader name(s) (minimum age 18, or 21 for Venturing crews): Name ____________________________________ Age _______ Scouting position _________________ Expiration date ___________________ Address___________________________________________________________________________________ Member No. _________________ City __________________________________________________________ State _______________ Zip code ____________________________ Phone _______________________________ E-mail ___________________________________ Youth Protection training date ______________

Mister T: As you said, Requirement 2 is the hurdle. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. Right now, that's a huge stretch. OBEDIENT is the seventh point, and that includes the civil law. Here's what Troop Program Features has to say: Leader: Life is filled with things that we must do whether we like them or not. One of the marks of growing up is to willingly accept responsibilities. Scouts: A Scout is obedient. I'd have a very tough time at this immediate juncture accepting his demonstration of living this point of the Scout Law. The good news is there's between a year and two years to see how he reacts to this moment in his life.

Bring him up at a Pack meeting... all by himself. Cubmaster, CC, and his DL come forward. CM just says a word about Cub Scouting being for friends, and about the Cub Scout "helping the Pack GO." The grownups hug/shake hands with him, and he's had a moment in the sun.

From the form (page 2): Unauthorized and Restricted Activities: The BSAs general liability policy provides coverage for bodily injury or property damage that is made and arises out of an official Scouting activity as defined by the Guide to Safe Scouting. Volunteers, units, chartered organizations, and local councils that engage in unauthorized activities are jeopardizing their insurance coverage. PLEASE DO NOT PUT YOURSELF AT RISK. Ping the Beav ...

Moose, It is fillable and savable: I just emailed a copy of the basic sheet to my District Director, District Commish, and RT commish. Now, will your Council permit electronic filings? That's their decision, but I sure hope so in my Council. As far as your COR requiring it every time, Brava!!!!! Using the process of planning the outing is perhaps more important than the actual paperwork.

Everyone: Read the instructions. Trips to NOAC and any regionally sponsored event are required submissions. I have alerted my District Director, and I'm asking for time as part of the next Roundtable opening. I've also asked him to get guidance for me. I will post the gist of his guidance when I get it, fwiw. I've specifically asked about independent Patrol camping by Boy Scouts.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

OK. Let's back up. This youth member got his license and then got a DUI??? The least of his problems is will he get Eagle! Right now, depending on your jurisdiction, he may be well looking at juvenile hall or jail time. If he's worth the time and energy, and I hope he is, support him getting out of the jam first. In addition, as Beavah and perhaps the Judge will tell you, if he has his EBOR before this gets cleared up, and he talks about it, well, those are people the prosecutor can call as witnesses against him. When he's out of the jam, focus on a lot of mentorship about doing the right things ... because they are the right things. Then, when he's got his head out from where the sun does not shine, and he understands the meaning of Obedient in the Scout Law, maybe it'll be time to talk with the DAC and whoever coordinates EBORs in your District. Personally, today, if he (or his parents) insisted on an Eagle Board of Review (if he's otherwise ready), I'd be voting to defer six to nine months, and watch him live the Oath and the Law during that time.

Since the threads have been moved together, and one closed, I'm going to shift my comment to here, and expand on it: First, the OP made 2 posts and then went away. An internet board is good for generalities, but the specific situation he/she seeks guidance on needs facts. Second, with that said: The OP needs to visit with his Commissioner, COR, DE, and the District Advancement Chair. They are local on the ground, and can assist the OP in the matter involving the young man in question, whatever it be. I have seen membership in the Boy Scouts of America, both youth and adult, revoked from the local Council, and affirmed at the National Council. I have not seen award of a rank revoked. The following words from Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088, although applying to appeals of award of rank, may be instructive: A decision at either level finding in favor of the Scout shall be final. Units have no right of appeal of a decision. To me, that implies: If a unit disagrees with an Eagle Scout about any number of matters after award, the local and National Councils aren't going to do much regarding the rank. They can, and they have, done a fair bit regarding membership. This is all preliminary information. The OP has chosen not to share with us the facts of the matter at hand. We can point him/her to indicators, but we cannot help much further unless we speculate. I think many of us who are regulars here have learned the hard way speculation is not fun and does not work well.

ScoutNut, Our Council uses a 4 tiered scale: Instructor (Under 18 years old), has 1-3 steps depending on YOS. Counselor (18 and over), has 3 steps. Assistant Director (requiring NCS training), 18 and over, I think has two steps Area Director (requiring NCS training), 21 and over, I think these are negotiated a bit more directly. Program Director and Camp Director are negotiated individually. There are other elements of the scale, but they are specialist positions... maintenance, chaplains and such. Gender does not matter on the scale, but in order to attract enough guys, Council would have to raise rates across the board to get the applicants deep enough that there'd be no reason to look at women. Right now, the simple fact is there are not enough well-qualified men to fill all the spaces. Does that make more sense?

I'm con on this. Pinewood Derby is typically 3-5 hours in a decent size pack (30-40 youth). B&G can run all manner of time... If you decide to do both, do Pinewood, do a banquet, sing Happy Birthday, and get out. Defer awards, announcements, everything that is not absolutely core to the event. Cranky kids, who are cranky because they are long past "the fleeting moment of freshness" bedtime, are Hellions the next day, even if they are 365 day a year angels.

MEMO to MODERATORS: This guy posted parallel threads. See also: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301366 John

I just wonder how many ways I can say this: If you want your Scout Reservation to have an all-male seasonal youth staff, then the jobs have to be attactive enough to cause the young men to apply for them! That means: - The position has to pay enough money, either in direct wages or in tax-free money, such as scholarships. - The bed and board has to be attractive enough. - The future references from camp directors, PDs, and area directors have to support the young person as he seeks future employment. - The terms of the employment contract have to support the school program in the local area. If a Boy Scout Council cannot recruit enough quality young men to seasonal staff positions, then I submit the young men perceive the work does not meet their expectations in one of the four areas above. One of our Scout Reservations in my Council uses a substantial number of youth member and young adult women in its staffs. They are for the most part great and fantastic people. I know quite a few of them. Our Council has decided the payroll cost of going all-male is not worth it when there are well-qualified young women available. What I'm saying: In your Council, if you want all-males on staff, it's time to put up (invest in the payroll and amenities so the young men want to work at Scout Camp, AND expect fees to go up accordingly) or shut up (well qualified women are there because your Council doesn't want to increase camp fees further). Either way, the people to approach are your Council Camping Committee and Council Activities Committee of your Council Executive Board.

I would talk with your District and Council Advancement Chairmen. I have seen membership in the Boy Scouts of America, both youth and adult, revoked from the local Council, and affirmed at the National Council. I have not seen award of a rank revoked. The following words from Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088, although applying to appeals of award of rank, may be instructive: A decision at either level finding in favor of the Scout shall be final. Units have no right of appeal of a decision. To me, that implies: If a unit disagrees with an Eagle Scout about any number of matters after award, the local and National Councils aren't going to do much regarding the rank. They can, and they have, done a fair bit regarding membership. This is all preliminary information. You've not shared with us the facts of your issue. We can point you to indicators, but we cannot help you much further unless we speculate. I think many of us who are regulars here have learned the hard way speculation is not fun and does not work well.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

The Bemidji jacket is superior in fabric, construction, fit, and finish to the BSA Supply Corporation item. It's worth it. Supply Corporation can go jump in a snowbank on this one.