JoeBob

4 minutes ago, Navybone said:

by your own admission you believe in the concepts of diversity and inclusion at their most basic level.

Nope.  I believe in valuing individuals for themselves.  I don't seek out individuals based on their group identity. 

"I need a black friend."  "Why?"  "Because he's black."  Duh.

"I need a girl friend." is a different topic...

Attributing value to people because of their group identity is setting them up for failure.  

And furthermore...

If you try to degrade the quality of comradeship of seven white boys on a patrol campout, because they have no blacks or females; you are lost.  Would you try to argue that seven black sisters would improve their esprit de corps by adding a male cracker to their campfire? 

4 hours ago, Navybone said:

Honestly, I think you have made up your mind and are not interested in anything actual proof of the values of diversity or inclusion to an organization, a leader, or to an individual.  

Nope.  I have a very open mind.  In fact, I invite you to convince me.  I ask that you use simple words that an adolescent would understand. (We are talking about a Boy Scout merit badge, right?)  Inherent truths such as Diversity and Inclusion should have no need for cerebral academic studies.  Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, et al. were easily explained in layman's terms without high minded government funded research papers.  These new three ephemeral precepts should be easy, yes?  Go for it.

Before you dismiss me as an avowed racist chauvinist, know that I have served with / work with blacks, women, and Hispanics.  The color of their skin and their gender were/are irrelevant; they all earned their way into my circle of highly esteemed friends because of who they were and what they could do.

@Navybone, now it's your turn.

I can think of no better way to push away what remains of the old guard.  Those of us who never bought into the concept that girls were required for the betterment of BOY scouts, are now being asked to support a hastily shammed up Eagle required merit badge that twists that knife.  No one can prove that diversity and inclusion  are strengths; they are buzzwords from the left.  Now councils are supposed to be half female?  Do the Girl Scouts' lawyers know that yet?

Folks like me are changing our wills. Don't bother with an FOS request.

A small bitter part of me hopes that the perv bankruptcy lawyers carve up BSA and bury it so that I can mourn and move on.  

SO, when BSA exceeds the stated goal of 50% female membership, do they become FSA, Female Scouts of America?  Girl Scouts is taken...

7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Did you actually read the article you cited?

Ad hominem already?

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Not years...perhaps a few hours, maybe even days...

Nah.  When you have lived as long as I have and driven those miles, 10 mph over the limit equals years.  InquisitiveScouter: "The facts (stubborn things) and statistics don't support you."  Oh yeah?

You quote me the official government website with a safety bias.  I'll refer you to a religious website: "Seven out of ten motorists disobey the traffic speed limits. Further, less than 10 percent of highway sections had more than 50 percent compliance with the law! "  So on 90% of the road at least half of the drivers are speeding.      https://truediscipleship.com/speed-limits-people-comply/

and Wired: https://www.wired.com/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri/  "The study of 988 drivers in that county, where Purdue is located, found few people have any respect for speed limits, which they consider nothing more than vague guidelines they can ignore. Civil engineering and economics professor Fred Mannering says that means highway officials set artificially low speed limits because they know people will ignore it."  Which directly supports my premise that stupid nitpicking BSA rules undermine respect for and compliance with needed regulations.

On a personal note; if you are one of those few people driving the speed limit on I-285, causing everyone to slam on their brakes and weave dangerously to get around you, move over!  I have places to be and a life to live!  Grrrr.

8 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Those 5% of the rules that are frustrating to them.  They look at those rules and say "ugh, I now cannot do this

The stupid rules undermine the necessary rules. 

Once you get used to fudging: using a wheel barrow, picking up your nephew on the way to scouts, tossing water balloons, playing laser tag, and ringing the kettle bell; it's easier to let: chainsaws, one on one contact, alcohol, range safety violations, and political campaigning in uniform, leak into your program.

For those who reflexively advocate obeying every rule; how many years have you wasted driving the speed limit while impeding the flow of traffic and being a general hazard on the highway?

Use your common sense.   And remember that the bureaucrats/lawyers who wrote the fine print don't have any common sense.

"Help other people at all times", one of the very basic tenets of scouting, is a higher law than "don't ring the Salvation Army kettle bell in uniform".    With the current PR situation, BSA should be grateful the the Salvation Army doesn't have a rule prohibiting Scouts from ringing the bell in uniform. 

@CynicalScouter, I think the High Horse you rode in on is ready to leave...

If you're bothered by political discussion, why read the I&P threads?  Masochism?

I come here to get a feel for what reasonable people are thinking about current affairs.  I don't think that every poster is 'reasonable', but I try to understand their thinking feelings.

The pretzel logic and false comparisons used for justifying behavior that would have unquestionably landed one in prison 30 years ago are frightening.

But maybe I should be afraid. 

I'll check back next week to see if I'm over-reacting.

I have a friend who wants to give 2 parcels of land to the Boy Scouts.  A 10 acre plot on the Oxxxxx River to be used as a put in / launch point for canoes.  And a 100 acre plot 3 miles down river to be used as a primitive camp.  The 100 acres is 60% in the flood plain, 40% high ground.  Both plots back up to the Oxxxxx national forest.

He has already spoken to a local council pro, who is not interested in the land if it is encumbered.  My friend's father gave 50 acres to BSA many years ago, on the condition that it be used for Scouting or returned to the family.  After many years of trying to get the land released for sale, the Scouts lost interest and the land reverted to family ownership.  So my friend is not going to donate land un-encumbered.

My advice to him so far has been:

• Wait until the bankruptcy is finished.  No reason to tempt fate.
• Speak to a district volunteer who is not interested in using his donation to pay someone's salary.
• Consider making the gift to 3 to 5 local troops as an un-divided interest in land.  That way the land would be well used; close to the troops' home.  Enough resources to share development projects: one troop builds a pavilion, one troop builds latrines on high ground, one troop builds a rifle range, etc.

What advice would you have?

15 hours ago, Navybone said:

 And to this point, BLMmis not advocating riots and violence, and destruction all over the country.  

"Black Lives Matter leader Hawk Newsome made terroristic threats against the United States on Wednesday. “If this country doesn’t give us what we want, then we will burn down the system and replace it,” the BLM leader declared. "  

I would find it difficult to loan this man my gas can.  And if I didn't watch him carefully as he moved on down the street, I would be shirking my duty to my neighbors.

^ Disappointment Lake: our best campsite 3 years ago. ^

This is by far the best link for information on the BWCA:

https://bwca.com/index.cfm

Be sure to haunt the forums and trip reports for current info.

I'd guess that your biggest challenge is going to be finding campsites large enough to accommodate your group. Or multiple campsites close enough to together.  Remember to have backup sites in mind, in case your destination is occupied.

If you use Snowbank Lake as your entry point, you could swing by the BSA facility on Moose Lake to get some bling.

 https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=uQ%2BlZxkx&id=7CF54F449285C1BAE5A2090DF73BC7A66DD37FEB&thid=OIP.uQ-lZxkx2M3mgyWGnidV2AHaE8&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fep.yimg.com%2Fay%2Fyhst-62545716082916%2Fokpik-trail-system-16.gif&exph=600&expw=900&q=bsa+northern+tier+map&simid=608007029298102957&ck=BD325D1B743BD8077DA82D8FE3CB0720&selectedindex=4&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=0,1,3,6,18&sim=11

We entered Snowbank, went through Parent to Disappointment and Ashub; and back.

Site 1381 was our best.  (Photo above.)

https://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=maps.camp_info&entityid=820&elat=47.98872&elon=-91.348531

Get rid of 'Scoutmaster' ?  I think you're pandering to an appetite that refuses to be sated.

So what word are you going to use when a Scout 'masters' a skill?  Oh; wait...  Scouts are no longer asked to master Scout skills.  BSA was ahead of the curve!

So, anybody bet that this is not what the new flag ceremonies will look like?

https://pmcvariety.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/nfl-kneel.jpg?w=1000

On 5/24/2020 at 6:33 PM, fred8033 said:

I swear I'm just too tired.  I kept reading catheter.

Now I'm stuck on all the possible things that a Head Catheter is supposed to drain...

On 5/27/2020 at 10:12 AM, Cburkhardt said:

"Don't Ask-Don't Tell" was adopted by National in the 1990's at the insistence of certain subgroups active in the BSA.  This caused internal conflict, because faith groups had different positions on the matter.  So, we had certain faith groups insisting on adoption and enforcement of membership standards that were not agreeable to other faith groups.  Certain external advocacy organizations that had positive or neutral views of the BSA instantaneously despise us.  This catastrophic policy change is among the major causes of our big problems today. 

Those of us at the grassroots level can never allow Scouting to officially recognize religious dogma of particular faiths in our membership standards again.  

Upon reading your prefacing arguments, I thought I knew where you were going; but I came to the opposite conclusion.  Faith based organizations as COs have been a long and true friend to the BSA.  What have 'certain external advocacy organizations' done for you lately?

5 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Typical Fox headline.

Sorry Tahawk; check the date.  That headline on Fox was fully 2 weeks ago.  That Fox outrage is partially responsible for the changes that enabled all of us to plant the flags that were allowed.

Not that those underground would or could care.

8 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Am I reading it right that canoeing is done in 3 hours?

J-stroke, Draw, Pry, Bow-Rudder and Brace can probably be mastered in 15 minutes, right?  Does it matter if the scouts can't get the boat to go straight enough to get back to the dock?

Deep water self-rescue, assisted rescue, and re-entry might take half an hour.  To demonstrate.

But wait!  Looks at the bottom of the schedule:

*Must be present at the beginning of each scheduled program to complete badge *

* Must be present during all blocks of program or badge to complete it *

Dang fuddy-duddies interfering with our water fun.

Boy Scouts banned from planting American flags on veterans' graves for Memorial Day due to coronavirus

https://www.foxnews.com/us/boy-scouts-banned-memorial-day-coronavirus-veterans

At least we're trying to do the right thing.

On 5/1/2020 at 3:31 PM, Jameson76 said:

rafting trips

Pretty sure that rafting is sunk. 

No way for 7 people to social-distance in an 18' Avon. 

Wearing an N95 mask is a drowning hazard; and I bet that you could inhale a wet procedure mask trying to catch your breath after an unexpected cold water dunking. 

And buddy-rescue... Well; never-mind.

Two deep on all video conferences? Patently absurd.

Unless we're trying to convince our boys that someone is always out to get them.  How better to create paranoia? 

In the post-lawsuit BSA, which is better: a) adult scout leaders who can't be trusted; or b) adults who can't be trusted, ESPECIALLY not scout leaders.

If you're going to require 2 adults on every video call, you may as well require 3 adults.  And record the call. And send a certified copy to Irving for review. And file for a tour permit before you schedule the call.  And...