Horizon

Monkey Tamer:

It will be hard to measure. I know of a few Eagles with young sons who will now enroll their boys once eligible, but will never necessarily admit that was why they held off.

I was one of those people fighting against the system. I did it through letters and communication at the Council and National level, plus conversations with the head of the Presbyterian Church USA (one of the Top 10 charter orgs who allows gays and lesbians).

Many times I was told by people here to love it or leave it, but I stuck it out hoping and pushing for local control someday. People here called my friends and family sinners, immoral, and unfit for association with their Scouts. I understand where they come from, and I hope that they someday come around. But I don't ever want any unit to take someone it does not want, I just wanted to be able to invite some great people to join mine. There are a couple of Scouts I now hope to pick up, and I plan on working on chartering a Venture Crew at my church if this passes (we will make it part of our environmental outreach with our youth group). I might not have any gays in my unit - but I will have adults involved who could not bring themselves to support the organization.

Next week will be very interesting. I pray for all of us.(This message has been edited by Horizon)

Environment is higher on the profile, making our LNT philosophy critical.

Service has been required at many schools, so our service requirements work.

Outdoors has become adventure, and is celebrated. We should own this.

So those 3 are MORE relevant now. Our local REI has several Eagles working there, and i would love to see a better partnership with REI as well. REI does a ton of outdoors training, and offers wilderness first aid regularly as well.

Patriotism is still important. My Pack runs the September 11th associated Patriot Day morning assembly every year at our local public school.

Making good, moral choices (anti-bullying, helping others, etc.) never goes out of style. Some might argue the definition of morality, but there is still morality.

We are still relevant, we just need to work on our messaging and marketing to reach today's youth and their parents.

Terry:

I found this site when looking for ideas about running my Troop - and it still serves that purpose well. I regularly get great ideas, links and directions from the postings of others.

As to the I&P forum - having a public place to speak your mind helps. We do NOT want to the issue to be hidden, but rather to be debated. Let people declare that their unit and CO will hold one position, and others will hold another. I think that this is great step forward, and the market will decide over time.

In the meantime, one more distraction is gone from running a great program and we can take the debate back to whether 300' is possible with a wilderness permit in the mountains of Southern California.

Double post(This message has been edited by Horizon)

So IF this happens, we can finally see how many units leave (I doubt many, since they will still control their own membership rules) and how many units are created (a few, probably matching the ones that leave unless a major charter group leaves).

If I charter a new unit at my church, how would you even know if someone associated is gay if we met up at Camporee or Summer Camp?

If this passes I will finally be able to have our church youth group registered as a Crew. Wahoo!

The BSA put us in this by saying that gays aren't moral. That is a value judgement.

Saying that we are religious organization, and therefore do not accept atheists is not a value judgement.

Saying that we are an organization that helps boys become men, so girls are not allowed, is not a value judgement.

But saying that you can not be a leader if you are gay because that means you are immoral - that is a value judgement.

My issue is the accusation that the BSA is the last bastion. There are plenty of churches out there with the same attitude. I don't know other private clubs with similar membership issues, but I would not be surprised to find them.

The BSA simply reflects the older, more conservative churches that make up a percentage of the charter partners. We are not a lone voice, we are joined by others.

And we should change (but that has been debated already).

I remember when this first bubbled up - there was a thread about it. I don't think that we ever found a cite for the claim that he does not follow "Duty to God" though (happy to be corrected on that part). Is he refused for being gay, or refused for being an atheist?

1981 we had the Oak Ridge Boys. Our unit from Oklahoma loved it (I still associate their song "Elvira" with Scouting). Not sure if some of the other units were nearly as appreciative.

The only control / regulation I would support would be putting more money towards the national instant background check system. This would NOT have done anything for CT, but simply having the best possible instant check system for firearms ownership eligibility would be good. I have also felt that could also be used for checking voting eligibility.

But the firearms themselves are fine.

I will echo some of what Fred wrote. When I counsel a Cit badge (Nation or World) to younger Scout - it is fun going through it all. If I get a high schooler, I am really just stamping out signatures since they have taken the courses. This is part of my issue with the schoolwork badges personally.

I love counseling Personal Management, and every time I teach the boys to build a spreadsheet to show the impact of compound interest on both debt and investments. It is also a tough badge to teach around here, because most kids I counsel are not allowed to take a job (their parental driven focus is on their academics, followed by things like Scouting / Sports / Church), and most kids have wealthy enough parents as well that money is not an issue to them. I have to get creative to get them to understand how the money flows matter.

A Scoutmaster Conference does not grant a rank, even if you sign off. It takes a BOR to grant a rank.

If this kid is registered in your unit then you can give him an SMC. You don't have to set up a BOR - that is up to your committee to do that. Use the SMC to help the lad understand his situation, and how it came to be. You find out something interesting, and you might find out that you have a great Scout who has been really functioning as a lone Scout.

Don't punish the kid for the parent's actions.

I am NOT saying grant him an unearned rank - instead see what is going on. Shucks - invite him to an SMC on a campout (those were always my favorite).

It is not a myth - it is semantics.

"white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children" perhaps could be re-written to be "avowed heterosexual males are the most likely to molest children." The issue is that married men, who have reproduced, and who might have a regular heterosexual relationship with their spouse can ALSO be a molester.

The reason this is brought up is that it is not the flaming gay guy who is the risk factor - it is the one you never suspected due to their public persona.

I would add Unintended Consequences to the list as well (research why a VIN is required, why one must be issued, and why the VIN is the only key identifying characteristic).

Eagledad:

Once you get away from the San Francisco gay pride parade, they aren't about sex. The Marines were at the Pasadena parade, recruiting. Marines and Sailors marched in the San Diego pride parade. Assuming that you don't frequent gay pride parades, your view of them is colored by the media you choose to watch.

As for the kiss in - a kiss is not sex.However, gay rights groups have long done their kiss ins as a form of being open about who they love. It is a means of coming out of the closet and making your perceived opponent uncomfortable. The gay and lesbian club at my university did the same at a few fraternity parties back in the 80s.

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LDS altering their public stance is interesting, and could be another step towards local control. It will be interesting to watch. We also have the Supreme Court taking on the Defense of Marriage Act and California's Proposition 8. That is going to make for an interesting Court season as well. Expect more focus on this issue as we lead into the Court testimony, followed by the announcement.

IT was uncool back in the late 70s/early80s. A couple of fun stories though.

Junior year of high school. Chemistry class. One boy in the room had given the instructor an invitation to his Eagle COH before class. The instructor congratulated him during class. One boy (sitting in front of me) "Ha Ha - you are still in Scouts?"

I tap him on the shoulder, tell the boy I am honored to have Mike join the Eagle's nest (we are different troops). I was also a football letterman.

The boy in FRONT of the bully turns around and ask what the kids problem is. He had Eagled with me. He was the President of the FFA.

ANOTHER kid (a Senior) also pipes up that HE is an Eagle.

Great moment in closet Scouts speaking up.

Frat house, Stanford University. 1/3 of the men in my house were Eagles. My wife's granola crunchy hippie dorm at Stanford one night at dinner a guy does the Scout sign, and every single one of the men recited the oath and law just for fun.

District Camporee last year. My older son is leading the crew in competition. While everyone is assembling for morning flags, etc, he grabs the Crew flag and tells the Webelos to follow him for victory lap running around the "bowl" where we are assembled. He hears his name called out from two different directions - two boys from his high school are there from different units. All closet Scouts. My son - letterman and season MVP in Soccer.

My unit is full of Lettermen in Soccer, Football and Wrestling from 4 high schools. We also have our share of other groups as well.

My son stopped wearing his uniform to school in 5th grade.

He was embarrassed to be called out in 8th grade.

He stopped caring at 9th grade ("Dad, everyone knows - and I can take just about anyone who tries to mess with me about it. If not, I get XYZ to help." XYZ is the wrestler.

BSA24 that is the largest pile of horse pucks I have seen since Cavalcade. I will just say that if your generation is so damned good, why did you create such a horrible nation?

BSA24 - if we are telling our Scouts it is OK for an adult to smack a kid across the face for mouthing off, is it OK for the SPL to do the same when a Scout mouths off? How about if the SPL mouths off to you? Are you going to smack them for that? Shall the PLC get together and determine when a PL can whack a Scout for poor behavior?

You say it is OK to to punch lights out if someone gets physical with your wife. How about if they just mouth off to her? You going to punch for that?

We are supposed to be teaching kids the moral way to operate in society. Swinging fists every time someone mouths off is the path to incarceration, not morality.

The types of "corporal punishment" described in this thread:

"were I to see anyone smack their kid across the face"

"striking, hitting, slapping, harming "

"I can think of a few things kids would do that where getting smacked in the mouth would be a just punishment"

Where do you draw the line on corporal punishment?

Personally neither of my kids was spanked past the age 4 or so. It was not necessary, and I had better tools by then plus an ability to communicate.

Tokala - I disagree with your positioning. There is no need to go away from our values. Anti-gay is not one of of our values. It has never been taught, modeled or been a part of the program. More, tt is contradicted by the expressed faith and/or policies of many of our Charter Organizations.

Now, homosexuality IS preached against by many more of our Charter Organizations - and they should have the right to determine their own membership rules and choose leaders in the units that they sponsor.

Allowing local control would be a reflection of the Law of Reverent, and would maintain the role of the Charter Organization as well.

packsaddle asks:

"Why is San Francisco so expensive?"

San Francisco is surrounded on 3 sides by water - so there is little room for expansion. All of the available land has been developed already. All that is left is the ongoing gentrification of certain neighborhoods.

Other reasons for the cost:

Pay is good in the area (I should know - I have two open positions right now that are tough to fill): http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-Francisco-CA/Salary

Unemployment is below that of both California and the US as a whole.

http://bit.ly/UQHWZ8

So that means that supply is low and demand from well paid people is high. It is also a great place to live, the center of technology development in the world, home to two of the nation's best universities (Stanford and Cal), headquarters of many great firms, fantastic food, delightful climate, driving distance to skiing, national parks, and some decent surfing (though you need a wetsuit). The sailing in the Bay makes other racers cry.

The interesting (and semi-pertinent comment) note to add is that the smart real estate investor follows the homosexuals. They are often the first to gentrify an area, stemming from their outcast status. Once they move in - with a typical dual-income no kids component, the area starts to improve. This then attracts young couples who find a nice area with affordable housing. The area then gets better, more couples with strollers, etc. This is a small part of the controversy in the Castro - when it was just a crummy part of town with a bunch of gays and lesbians - nobody cared about the nudity. Once other people started hanging out, the population of the neighborhood changed, and some of the behaviors that were ignored for years are now an issue. Very interesting from an anthropological basis. Similar issues in the Haight - buy a place where the hippies congregate, and after awhile the hippies can't afford it and the "feel" of the area starts to change. I am still waiting for the Tenderloin to gentrify next.

As for our political debate - I prefer the Patrol Method Scoutmaster (L) for libertarian. Each Patrol determines its own path, and has the experience that they have chosen. A limited power Scoutmaster ensures that things do not go too far astray, but still gives the Patrols enough room to find their own path. Some Patrols might function as a commune, others as a dictatorship, still others as semi-organized chaos.

(This message has been edited by Horizon)

Seattle - you should read your link. LUG is an overblown situation, more experimentation occurs among women NOT in college as well. Finally, it is self reported sexual activity data,with its own issues of validity. It only hits the news because it is about lesbians in college.

I will believe that gays have all of this power when gay children are no longer killing themselves after constant bullying for their more moral betters, and when gay bashing is no longer a tolerated activity in our communities.

Packsaddle - my the boy would never survive the necessary committee meetings ( you know us Presbyterians - we need our committees to survive).

There is absolutely no need for the BSA to go down. We simply must determine what our core ideals ARE.

Gay or not gay is so completely irrelevant to our mission, that it is humorously tragic that we allow this issue to impact our ability to provide a program for youth.

Citizenship? Sell-Reliance? Good conduct? All of this wrapped up in program centered on on the outdoors? NONE of this has anything to do with whether or not someone is gay.

Earlier someone asked how one of us would react to sending our son off with a gay Scoutmaster.

1) I am sure that among our units that there is at least one in the closet who has camped with our Scouts. The Star Trek star who was an Assistant Scoutmaster and spokesperson for the BSA is George "Mr. Sulu" Takei for example.

2) I HAVE sent my son for a 4 day ski trip with his youth minister. This young man will soon be ordained in the Presbyterian Church, and I had zero concerns.