Posts posted by Horizon
2 hours ago, cocomax said:
Did you know 47% of women that recently graduated college have a job that does not require a degree, with an average salary of $37,330, and an average student debt of $39,400.
. . . and 37% of men are in the same boat.
The percent depends on your source of data.
Underemployement is trending down:
cocomax - taking your post point by point:
I’m sure people who take polo lessons or sailing lessons earn a lot more on average too, Does that mean you should send your kids to sailing school?
- It depends. If you control for SES (Socio Economic Scale), will you find the same impact? College diploma holders do earn more over time, regardless of SES upon entry.
Young people feel they must go to college because if they don't they are in trouble, they are told they doomed to a life of being poor if they do not go to college. Costs are outrageously high, but you pay them because you have to, and because the system makes it easy to borrow massive amounts of money.
- College diplomas help with higher earnings. Other forms of skill development also help (I am a supporter of Mike Rowe's work in push trade skill development: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/).
The nightmare begins when you can't get out of the debt. Since government lenders have pretty much unlimited power to collect on student debt they can grab everything from salary to income-tax returns. Running away is not an option. Most young people find themselves unable to make their full payments when they just get out of school end up perpetually paying down interest only, never even touching the principal.
- I completely agree. Privatizing Sallie Mae (under Clinton), and ensuring that the debt cannot be erased in bankruptcy court (under Bush) had a huge impact on students. But that means that an informed student should look at more options.
- In California, going to community college for the first two years (and living at home) and then transferring to a Cal State or a UC school saves thousands of dollars. The state also encourages this path, as it saves them money (community college faculty make much less than Cal State, who make less than UC faculty).
- There are also work study programs, plus the military (I paid for most of a top university thanks to Uncle Sam).
- Many top universities charge zero tuition for poorer families - Stanford announced a couple of years ago that no parents with an annual income and typical assets of less than $125,000 will have to pay a single cent toward tuition.
- Some universities are looking at a model where they take a percentage of future earnings instead of charging tuition: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-college-income-share-20180720-story.html
Applicants need to go shopping (hmmm - might make that a recommendation for my Personal Management Scouts when looking at a large family purchase).
Is a high school diploma worthless trash now? Is a BA / BS the new minimum standard to get a job now?
- No, the lack of diploma is even worse for lifetime earnings. Census Bureau says that "33.4 percent of Americans 25 or older said they had completed a bachelor's degree or higher." So a college diploma puts a worker in that bucket.
Why does a student that goes to college for 3.5 years and never graduate earn about the same as a high school grad on average?
- Because they have not proven the ability to go all the way through. That makes it easy for the recruiting team to push their resume to the side when they have 150 go through.
Why does a Harvard grad make 200% more income than grads of average collages?
- Because Harvard does the sifting first, saving employers the work. For example, many top Wall Street firms and consulting shops will ONLY do on-campus recruiting at the Ivy League schools. Those are the firms that pay the most, hence the higher wages.
College is nothing more that High School 2.0, but with under age binge drinking.
- I am sure there are some colleges that fit that model, much like some Troops run a Webelos III program. I personally would avoid any of the for-profit schools that regularly have accreditation issues. However, painting all with that broad brush does them a disservice, and to put it bluntly - is factually wrong.
1 hour ago, fred johnson said:
I think there is huge opportunity here. A virtual high school with a graduation diploma from an Ivory league school would have value. I know I would have seriously considered this for my kids.
You still need a validated certification methodology to prove actual attendance and more importantly comprehension. That is the biggest barrier to online education right now - testing and certification.
Yup, but they already both have their degrees. Pete even has a JD to go with his bachelors (in philosophy).
Now Pete will pay you to drop out of school and join his incubator (if you are good enough), but his portfolio company Palantir also has job postings labeled "new grad."
Go over to Musk's Tesla, and you will find this line on some of the job postings "Bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience; post-graduate or professional degrees a plus."
1 hour ago, cocomax said:
People will tell you college is an experience that inspires you to strive for more, to be your best. But in reality, it creates a workforce of mindless drones, set to take orders from the corporate hierarchy. It does not create the Steve Jobs of the world.
Hmm, ... Marc Benioff (CEO of Salesforce), degree from USC. Peter Thiel (PayPal, etc.), degree from Stanford. Elon Musk (Tesla), degree from U Penn. Jobs and Gates are outliers, not a model to follow.
Colleges and Universities do not create mindless drones. Teaching that to kids means that those kids, statistically, will have a lower lifetime pay than their peers. Now, if they prefer the trades (and listen to Mike Rowe), they might have a more fulfilling life. However, they also might end up in a mindless drone job on an assembly line.
So much bad information in this thread.
Yes, a few companies will hire without a college degree. Mine included. However, lifetime earnings are better for college degrees vs stopping with a high school diploma.
"A 2002 Census Bureau study estimated that in 1999, the average lifetime earnings of a Bachelor’s degree holder was $2.7 million (2009 dollars), 75 percent more than that earned by high school graduates in 1999. Today, we find similar numbers — but since 1999, the premium on college education has grown to 84 percent. In other words, over a lifetime, a Bachelor’s degree is worth $2.8 million on average."
Next, the reason to value diversity in employment (once again, my company included) is far more than "virtue signalling." Our customers come from many genders and races, so it is good to have employees be varied as well. This ensures that we put our best foot forward in any situation. Different perspectives helps break you out of mental traps.
Third for cocomax: Racking up $600k in debt for a PhD? Did your friend not have a fellowship? I know many PhDs, and the only debt they have is from their bachelors degree and for some housing costs during the PhD process. The rest was covered by their program. A hint - quality PhD programs pay for the tuition, and provide a stipend covered by being a TA in classes.
Online and self studying is great - but employers want to see certificates, degrees, experience, or some other proof of ability to complete. Now, you can instead just use screening test and do all training on the job: https://www.afr.com/leadership/cognitive-testing-for-everyone--its-democratic-and-its-thorough-20180521-h10cnt
But most firms need a way to screen. When online submissions allows for massive numbers of resumes, recruiters need a screen. Bachelors degree or higher is a great place to start.
As for worthless degrees - that is like worthless merit badges. Everything is an opportunity to learn to think, reason, and learn. Later you can apply to whatever trade you desire. When I was in management consulting, I hired psychology undergrads instead of business ones. The psych students knew stats and could write, while the business ones thought that they knew too much. I have a art degree graduate who is a top business consultant doing work for me as well. Theater major? I'll hire one to run events for me, or work on sales skills and presentations.
When I have to update my training, I have had my sons sit with me and go through it too - safe swim, weather, climb-on, trek, etc. I added youth protection to their mix as well.
I wanted them to hear from the BSA why we do things the way we do, and then we had some great conversations as well. Some of this is tough for many parents to discuss with their kids, and doing the videos together can help open up conversations.
My two cent.
2 hours ago, perdidochas said:
No, he's saying that we shouldn't add on unnecessary rules because of the parents that are doing things for their kids.
Damn, I wish this campfire was real and not digital.
First, when I say "we" I mean American society, and at some points also some Scouting activities I have observed.
Second, I have observed situations in Scouting and school were rewards / accomplishment were given based on criteria that could only be achieved with a significant level of parental / adult control - well beyond just input or mentoring.
The OP started this mentioning the "2am Saturday morning a group of dads were busy building the award winning pioneering project while the boys slept." If, instead, the Camporee disallowed that award based on who built it - it would be a better camporee. By giving the adults that award, however, that Camporee rewarded the lawnmower parenting that the article described.
The same occurs in the schools. It is not the assignment of the projects, it is when the ONLY way to get top marks is to have a parent take over that we enable and encourage lawnmower parenting.
What I am saying, apparently not clear enough, is that when you force adult requirements on children - don't be surprised when they turn to adults to get it done.
- Popular Post
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It exists, and we created it. Let me provide some examples.
Pinewood derby - when the winning car comes from the kid whose family has the tool set at home to build the perfect racer or art object. They get the awards, while the kids who actually did it himself goes home discouraged. The next year, other parents learn the rules of the game and take over.
Campsite pioneering projects - where the camp rewards the 2:00 AM dads, while the Troop of boys whose gateway is a lashed collection of random poles and lines (but with proper knots) does not place. The next year, adult leaders either take charge - or the Troop votes to not bother with that part of the contest.
Eagle projects - where someone at the Council starts adding requirements until the only way to get approved is to have a parent used to running RFPs, procurement, or large-scale construction projects involved. Eagle being marketed as the most important thing in the world means that parents quickly realize the only path forward is to take control.
I can give similar observations for science fair, the dreaded California Mission projects, or other ways the school issue homework that can only be completed to the teacher's satisfaction when parents become heavily involved.
We can be the ones in the way, insisting on only working with the youth. BUT. We also must ensure that what we require is appropriate for the youth we are mentoring, and that we are not adding to the requirements in such a way as to make it impossible (or improbable) that a youth can complete on their own.
As this thread is about preparing for girls in the youth Scout portion of the organization (since they were already adult leaders, on Ships, in Crews, and part of Posts), here is what is happening at my unit.
The committee and all parents of current Scouts were asked to vote on the committee sponsoring a girl's troop. The vote was in favor, but not unanimous. A sharing of gear, and some financial sponsorship will be provided to help get things off of the ground.
I have already offered to be an adult leader of the new Troop. My goal is simple - ensure that as we build a Troop with many new leaders, that the BSA soul is not lost. This means youth lead, strong Patrols, hands off parenting, etc.
It should be an interesting adventure.
Both of my sons (and I as a youth) were recognized at the Brotherhood level. Both of my sons also cringed at the Hollywood Indian and copy of the Plains war bonnet worn, knowing that it a form of stolen valor in eyes of many tribes. It helped (and hurt) when a member of the Navajo nation stayed with us and had long conversations with them about history, abuse, etc.
Some lodges do an amazing job of working with the local tribes, but unfortunately far too many do nothing of the sort.
As for cross-overs....
When we crossed Cubs over, the invitation was delivered by the Patrol that was accepting the new members. They came it with their Patrol Flag, Patrol Yell, Camporee Ribbons, list of Eagles, etc. Cubs would look up at the high school boys and wanted to join their gang. This worked beautifully, and gave inspiration to the Cubs and a chance to shine for the Scouts.
Did she have a bad experience with BSA (or GSA) bureaucracy before?
I saw this happen - my son was the Crew President and he and the advisor did NOT get along. The Advisor was going down one path, he and the Crew were going down another.
Result: The Crew dissolved as an official organism, and instead became a group of boys who did all of the things a crew could and should do. They raised money, went on adventures, scheduled and booked their own trips, etc.
To a youth, the payoff of bureaucracy is hard to see, and in some cases might be non-existent. So you COULD be up against that.
Teach her the WHY of the safety / forms / etc. that are required.
Googling, and I find there have been a number nighttime break-ins. daytime robberies and disturbances, and even a shootout (2011), at legal marijuana dispensaries in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti area so I can understand those concerns. The irony may be that the owner is looking for a safer location - a dead end street with the Boy Scouts as neighbors.
Robberies are a problem due to Federal laws preventing the dispensaries from using traditional banking or credit card services. The Feds will shut down the account and seize the assets, so they all work on a cash basis. That much cash = great target for a robbery.
Thought I would share this. I liked the father's experiment and patience (something I could work on myself I admit).
Planning an HA trip on your own (how I did the first one).
I looked at my calendar, and found an open 7-10 days (including weekends). I then filed for a wilderness permit for Yosemite - high country area. Once I got the permit (good for 12 I think) - I told the boys it was open to join. They could use Troop tents, the troop stoves, and they had to build out their own 3 man cooking teams. I had an 18 year old as my #2, leaving 6 more seats in my truck. We strapped the bags to the roof and took off.
Cost was gas and the permit, and they bought their own food.
If you have TWO groups - double in size, park at two different ends of the trail, and swap car keys in the middle at an agreed upon camp site on the trail.
So - you "just" need to find a good trail!
Here is our local schedule:
July 13 - First day for Year-Round Students
Fall Recess Sept 19, 2016-Oct 7, 2016
Winter Recess Dec 19, 2016 - Jan 6, 2017
Spring Recess March 20, 2017 - April 7, 2017
Last day for ALL students: June 9th
Impact: Summer Camp scheduling, if it is to include the entire troop together, has to be between June 9th and July 13th if the year-round kids are to attend. Note that for us, year-round is only through 8th grade / Middle School.
We have done Summer Camp "early" to allow the Troop to go together, though the number of year-round kids shifts over time. I would love to see our year-round kids take better advantage of their long breaks, but that only happens if there is a parent ASM whose child is in the program.
There has to be counselors for these badges.
Archeology professors, county agricultural agents, forest rangers, Native American leaders ...
Where did all these people go?
They are around - but they might not want to fill out the paperwork to be a registered leader and on a Council list. There are a few I know that are happy to help out a few Scouts at a time, but they don't want their phone or email regularly buzzing.
Yah, @@John-in-KC has a good thought there, eh?
I like EBORs in the field. There's just somethin' nice about an EBOR around a campfire. Changes the tone of the conversation for everyone.
I love this as well - would make a great memory - would need to get the District folks involved for us though.
I have done about half of my Eagle SMCs on campouts or the trail.
When I was a Scout they did a mass Eagle BOR night. Must have been 10+ people in the room when I came in and they started asking their questions after I had delivered the Oath, Law, etc.
Even adults need to prepare for interviews and reviews in their lifetime. I'm not condemning prepping, but I do believe there is way to much focus in this discussion on prepping scouts to protect them. Of course there are a few bad examples of adults out of line, but they aren't the norm. The message in this discussion should be that the troop program should be sufficient preparation for an EBOR. How does the SM know if the program is sufficient? By the comments of scouts in the other rank BORs.
We prep because we don't control who the Council sends. If I could honestly state that an Eagle BOR was just the next step up from the Life BOR, then I would not see the need to prep. Due to experience, however, there are situations in the Eagle BOR that do not come up in our Troop BOR.
I would rather spend my time prepping a boy for a potential ambush, then fight the politics at the Council level.
Troop tradition is rotation. Adults pull the list of what is available and the cost, boys vote on where to go.
I thought that this TedX talk was great. While focused on children in the criminal justice system, there are some excellent points in regards to the maturity vs intelligence curves of the youth that we lead:
We do the practice - but it is treated as a practice. We do a uniform inspection, and check to see if all MBs are on the sash (that one popped up too). We go through the paperwork one last time, and make sure the candidate has everything in their binder (another Council thing). Everything we cover is based on things that have happened to candidates in the past. We also make sure that if the Scout is NOT from a Christian church, that they are comfortable with answering / responding to some of the inappropriate questions that have come in the past as well.
So it is truly a prep session, not a Troop EBOR.
Some of you say you would never prep an older Scouter - I do that all the time for friends interviewing at new companies. Every firm is different in what they want or expect, and just because you sailed through a meeting with IBM does not mean you are ready for Google, and Apple is a whole different game depending on the level of the position. So, yeah, I consider it my job as a leader to help young boys become men - and that includes role-playing out different types of interview situations.
A local paper started requiring a Facebook profile to log in and comment - in other words, no more anonymous trolling. It cut down the commentary significantly.
Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts
in Issues & Politics
From a thread in the /BSA Sub Reddit:
The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has 41 live records for the term "Scouting."
Of these 41 live trademark/patient registrations, 13 are owned by the BSA including the following: NORTHERN STAR SCOUTING, FRIENDS OF SCOUTING, LIVE SCOUTING'S ADVENTURE NATIONAL JAMBOREE SBR 2017, LIVE SCOUTING'S ADVENTURE, SCOUTING WORKS, THIS IS SCOUTING, MY.SCOUTING, SCOUTINGU, SCOUTING FOR ADVENTURE, SCOUTING FOR FOOD, NATIONAL SCOUTING MUSEUM, NATIONAL CATHOLIC COMMITTEE ON SCOUTING, and SCOUTING.
0 "Scouting" are owned by the GSUSA.
The GSUSA does own a trademark for "Scout" as it applies to their cookies, and interestingly enough in Sept. 2018 the GSUSA obtained a trademark for "Scout Cookies."
The BSA also owns a trademark for "Scout" as it applies to:
The BSA owns the following trademarks for "Scout:" VOICE OF THE SCOUT, SCOUTWEAR, NATIONAL SCOUT JAMBOREE, SCOUTSTUFF.ORG, and a few others out of the 715 registered "Scout" trademark derivatives.